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Octavo posted:The 2d20 Dune looks pretty neat, but I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around its dueling system.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:17
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Arivia posted:Nah, it's not goblins. The titular Lamb is a horrible maggoty thing that's the child of a god, and its various fluids have magical or poisonous effects. The dungeon is a temple built up around it to kind of farm the Lamb's products, and dealing with the Lamb itself (with the PCs starting off as sacrificial captives) is the main hook of the dungeon. Inside of about three rooms, you find someone who's been captured to serve as the Lamb's personal idk, groomer? keeping it as clean as possible and collecting the stuff off it (who can be saved and be a new PC for one of the players, remember it's a funnel), then a bunch of old priests literally laying in pools of Lamb piss. The priests have gone senile due to the poison of the piss pools, but there's one in an adjacent room who's drinking different piss and has a claw for an arm and magic spells who turns all of them on the PCs. After the fight, the different piss can be collected for various uses, from extremely crucial to surviving the dungeon to instadeath for a PC. (none of these uses involve drinking it, just throwing it like a grenade or making an improvised lantern using some as lamp oil) Is everyone just gonna walk on by this and act like it's perfectly normal and fine? Cause this sounds more than slightly egregious and I would bolt if this came up in a game. It's peak poo poo-piss edgelord nonsense, and it's not like knowing that someone isn't cranking to it makes it better. Halloween Jack posted:
15 points for referencing the Dao when describing OSR fandom. That's an original phrasing I never thought I'd hear.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:19
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It wasn't my idea, it's an exact quote from a blog I found. It was a whole bit.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:24
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Halloween Jack posted:It wasn't my idea, it's an exact quote from a blog I found. It was a whole bit. Wait, I thought you were joking. Someone actually did that as an actual description? Do you have a link handy? I gotta read this.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:27
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Halloween Jack posted:If I've said it once I've said it a million times. The. Slow. Blade. Penetrates. The. Shield. Lol thanks Gurney.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:28
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Xiahou Dun posted:Is everyone just gonna walk on by this and act like it's perfectly normal and fine? Cause this sounds more than slightly egregious and I would bolt if this came up in a game. It's peak poo poo-piss edgelord nonsense, and it's not like knowing that someone isn't cranking to it makes it better. Yeah, that honestly sounds like the kind of juvenile, shocking/gross for its own sake sort of scenario that I had really thought OSR stuff had mostly moved past. Oddly enough, to reference the current topic in the industry thread, I feel like the prevalence of this stuff can be traced back to Raggi's early influence on the OSR movement. That guy really moved the whole thing into an edgelord direction early on and that influence has never really subsided. KingKalamari fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 18:30
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Regarding the Lair of Sheep Piss, I just don't know why people want this stuff. Like, I enjoy the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast, but they've reviewed stuff like Blood in the Chocolate, Something Stinks in Stilton, and Carcosa and just treat them like totally normal modules.Xiahou Dun posted:Wait, I thought you were joking. Someone actually did that as an actual description? Do you have a link handy? I gotta read this. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 18:36
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Halloween Jack posted:Regarding the Lair of Sheep Piss, I just don't know why people want this stuff. Like, I enjoy the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast, but they've reviewed stuff like Blood in the Chocolate, Something Stinks in Stilton, and Carcosa and just treat them like totally normal modules. Ah. So it did not actually meet my ridiculously high standard of "an actual well thought-out Daoism reference" and is the usual vaguely racist fortune cookie stuff. I really need to lower my expectations at some point. Thanks for the link, of course. Cheers.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:44
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Halloween Jack posted:I think Fragged Empire and its spinoffs might be the happy medium of a system I'm looking for, but I've never had time to really playtest it. The FE corebook has a problem that many have pointed out, where it's a very well laid-out reference but poorly laid-out for learning the game, so I've struggled with it. i've been running a fragged game for over a year now and uhhhh please don't spread this meme lie. fragged doesn't have WoD-bad layout but it is pretty fuckin' lovely for reference use.
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Dec 10, 2021 18:56
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Now that I think about it, the layout is just kinda bad. I can appreciate why e.g. there's a brief description of the races in the chargen section and a more detailed one much later in the book, but it's a pain. During character creation I found dealing with equipment in particular to be a pain. It's still not Marvel Heroic level bad layout.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:00
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Halloween Jack posted:Now that I think about it, the layout is just kinda bad. I can appreciate why e.g. there's a brief description of the races in the chargen section and a more detailed one much later in the book, but it's a pain. During character creation I found dealing with equipment in particular to be a pain. This is the first time I've heard someone criticize MHR layout and I'm probably too close to it but I'd love to hear more.
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Dec 10, 2021 19:19
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Tulip posted:I lost the thread around this assumption and was never able to recover it after this part: The classless system wanter in this case isn't all people who want classless systems. I could have phrased this better considering the amount of posts that had gone by. I assure you I'm not generalizing all people who enjoy classless systems as being misguided or something. There are at least some people who, by my observation, seem underserved by the classless systems they have tried because they still want something that feels a bit more familiar. I could be wrong about how many people that represents, but the point here was never to figure out how to satisfy everyone. The point was to figure out who it is you're trying to satisfy, and then satisfy them. This was relating back to a post about decoupling stats and ability scores in D&D and streamlining all that, and it all is about abstracting to drill in and satisfy an audience by targeting it more directly, rather than by targeting more generally. It's not about classless systems in general except for it being a way to approach the problem, but the solution you reach should differ a lot depending on the audience you're targeting for all the reasons everyone has said in rebuttal. Sorry for the miscommunication yall, it's a thing
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Dec 10, 2021 19:32
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mellonbread posted:GLOG made me appreciate OSR games that prioritize completeness over "modularity" and "hackability". For example Esoteric Enterprises is mechanically a much worse game, basically just a clunky hack of Lamentations. But it has everything you need to play in one document. Mechanics, classes, spells, monsters, play advice, world creation rules. OSE is even better, with an online SRD and generators to quickly find (or create) whatever I need. If I wanted the same for GLOG I'd have to sift through half a dozen supplements in varying states of completeness on different websites. the OSE layout is so good i cant help but be amazed sometimes. what a good book
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Dec 10, 2021 19:37
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It's been a while since I actually read it, but basically, the game is obsessed with telling you about dice tricks before explaining what the basic features of the system actually mean. It starts by going over the Traits on your character sheet and telling you how to add them up to a die pool. It tells you that you can step up dice, step back dice, combine dice, split dice, and add dice using various Traits. Then it does the same thing with the Doom Pool. At some point you're told that you add 2 dice to get a Total, and choose another die to be the Effect Die. It takes like 30 pages to tell you why you're rolling the loving dice. Like, you're usually rolling dice to either create an Asset that the team can use, or inflict Stress on an enemy. Was that so hard? Make that the third thing you explain to the reader, after "what the words on the character sheet mean" and "what is a d4." Then the writers can go back to feeding buckets of dice up their buttholes one-by-one. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 19:51
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Xiahou Dun posted:Is everyone just gonna walk on by this and act like it's perfectly normal and fine? Cause this sounds more than slightly egregious and I would bolt if this came up in a game. It's peak poo poo-piss edgelord nonsense, and it's not like knowing that someone isn't cranking to it makes it better. I thought it was gross and off putting but ultimately it was fine in play (I warned my players ahead of time and got their consent). It’s horror in a funnel adventure and it’s one element next to the friendly ghouls, the statue that deletes pixels off your body, or the traps and resource management. (To give you some ideas)
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Dec 10, 2021 19:58
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I love horror games and play them as often as I can. That’s just prurient, childish and terminally uncreative writing. There’s nothing actually scary about it. It’s just mentioning pee existing to get a knee jerk reaction. “You open the dungeon door, and behind it is a terrible sight and a worse odor : Todd didn’t properly close up his fish curry from last week!*~!*~!*~!” has the exact same effect but is at least more obviously a joke and makes the players less concerned they’ve been drafted into the GM’s jerk off puppet theater.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:09
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this is literally a kc green comic
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Dec 10, 2021 20:36
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Xiahou Dun posted:I love horror games and play them as often as I can. http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2020/04/lair-of-lamb-final.html you're welcome to take a look if you'd like, it's free by the time my players got to those rooms they had plenty of reasons to be scared and plenty of reasons to be scared about the lamb in particular, so finding out what the cultists did with the lamb was an evolution, not something kneejerk edgelord the lamb is hosed up and gross and a horrible horrible thing that should not be. that's the horror. using a waste product as a hallucinogen is hosed up and horrible.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:40
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I have absolutely zero interest in the piss adventure, but you do you.
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Dec 10, 2021 20:56
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I don't think it's fair to bag on Arivia for describing a tiny part of an adventure someone else wrote. If her table consented and was OK with it, please let's not be overly judgey. RE: the 2d20 talk: Based on posts in the 2d20 thread, it sounds like Star Trek might be the best implementation of the system. I think Conan is a good implementation, but with flaws, in particular some technical vagueness and confusion in the main rule book that could have been cleared up with some good editing, and sometimes a confusing mix of rules-light and crunch that doesn't always gel. I can't really blame Modiphius for eagerly picking up licenses to shove into their system, like Dune and Infinity - 2d20 is flexible as a base system and it's certainly better than the way D20 was used for every licensed setting back in the day (including Conan d20). But, I never have particularly high expectations for those licensed systems anyway - Conan is the first I've genuinely wanted enough to buy. You're basically counting on a pretty small customer base - the fans of that license who also want to play an RPG based in it, specifically for it rather than homebrewing or adapting D&D, and they can find a whole gaming group who feel the same - and that means low sales numbers on an inherently low-margin product, which limits how much money you can put into development. RE: class systems in games, for me a menu of classes is useful for conceptualizing both a specific character, but more importantly, what sorts of characters inhabit the setting of the game. Even if I only ever want to play a fighter, this system doesn't just have an Illusionist, but an Illusionist class, so I can expect there's a fair number of Illusionists out there, and maybe there will be one in my party, too. The class is an archetype representative of what's there in the game. Now, of course, I don't want to just play some faceless cookie-cutter character, so of course I want customization options, and now that I'm really digging into character generation/leveling, of course I'm going to notice that cool Illusionist power and think "woah it'd be awesome if my fighter could do that too." I think that's why someone said every class system inevitably winds up having a multiclass system (which I don't think is 100% true but it's true enough). Entirely dispensing with the classes leaves open the question of what kinds of people can I expect in this game, and in my party, and maybe also some question about what sort of characters I should be thinking about making? Maybe it means I have to read through the whole menu of points-buy options, or maybe it's just totally wide open like a PDQ game until the GM or someone tells me more about this setting, etc. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's different. These days I think I prefer a system where there are archetypes, but they're not as prescriptive as say a D&D class. By that I mean that while I can thumb through a menu of a dozen or so archetypes and understand that in this setting, there's barbarians, and there's pirates, and there's sorcerers, and there's mercenaries, etc -the selection of an archetype during character generation doesn't dominate the other choices I'm making, like my character's country of origin, or their social class, or their religion. Cultural factors could be as strong or stronger differentiators than archetype, at least potentially. Maybe there's even a fill-in-the-blank descriptor field or two or ten, any one of which could be more significant.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:27
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Leperflesh posted:I don't think it's fair to bag on Arivia for describing a tiny part of an adventure someone else wrote. If her table consented and was OK with it, please let's not be overly judgey. At least from my perspective, I'll specify that the shade I'm casting is exclusively aimed towards the module itself and the decisions of its creators. It sounds like Arivia made it work for her table, so there's nothing to criticize her on. I think the more interesting conversation is about why creators keep including these sort of off-putting elements in their modules: It reminds me a lot of when I was reading through the OSRIC mega-dungeon, Halls of Arden Vul - it was a reasonably interesting mega-dungeon with some pretty nice artwork, but then I get to a room on the second level that's the home of an evil, intelligent ape-monster who has a female adventurer locked up in a cage for sex purposes. It was just such a weird and off-putting inclusion. They already had a bunch of evil ape-mosnter content (The whole floor was carnivorous ape themed) so I don't know why they felt they had to include an encounter with a monkey sex pervert?
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Dec 10, 2021 21:42
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I’m also not really sure why there’s such an abhorrence to piss in particular. Like it’s a Kc green punchline sure, but that’s a GM getting his rocks off. We have tons of RPGs already that involve blood and flesh as a horror element, why should urine be any different? Are everyone’s sewers always storm drains and not carrying human waste?
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Dec 10, 2021 21:48
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CitizenKeen posted:The rulebook sucks. My goto anecdote is that the rules for (1) grenades, (2) grenade launchers, and (3) explosions are all in different chapters. This and the fact the game is five years late because Gutier won't stop loving up the production process makes it one of the most faithful adaptations in the whole of media.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:51
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"Good D20," as in actual D20 games, is always kind of an exception that proves the rule. All the good D20 games changed enough that they aren't really compatible with other D20 games. Like, you can't pick monsters out of a D&D Monster Manual and put them in Mutants & Masterminds without doing some work to convert them. (And since none of this is balanced anyway, why not just make up stats, same as you would if you were converting stuff from a totally different system?)KingKalamari posted:I think the more interesting conversation is about why creators keep including these sort of off-putting elements in their modules Arivia posted:I’m also not really sure why there’s such an abhorrence to piss in particular. Like it’s a Kc green punchline sure, but that’s a GM getting his rocks off. We have tons of RPGs already that involve blood and flesh as a horror element, why should urine be any different? Are everyone’s sewers always storm drains and not carrying human waste?
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Dec 10, 2021 21:53
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Arivia posted:I’m also not really sure why there’s such an abhorrence to piss in particular. Like it’s a Kc green punchline sure, but that’s a GM getting his rocks off. We have tons of RPGs already that involve blood and flesh as a horror element, why should urine be any different? Are everyone’s sewers always storm drains and not carrying human waste? I mean, at least from the perspective of horror gameplay, I feel like piss is going to be a risky proposition to include in a module if only because, at least in my experience, a good chunk of people just tend to immediately go to "tee hee, pee pee poo poo fart butts" whenever bodily waste comes up. I obviously haven't delved particularly deep into the module itself so I don't know the full details of how it's handled, but it sounds like a scenario that runs a very high risk of not being taken seriously by the players, or being off-putting in a bad way. You can see that even in non-rpg horror media: 1986's Rawhead Rex is infamous for a scene where the titular demon "baptizes" an evil priest with a golden shower, and it's generally not remembered as a chilling and iconic scene of horror.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:00
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Halloween Jack posted:I guess most people see a difference between stepping in some piss on your way to stab the Otyugh and writhing ecstatically in a bathtub full of magic LSD piss. Yeah, although they don't object to writhing in magic LSD bile, for example. I'm quite sure it's because we're aware some people have a sexual fetish about piss, but we're not acutely aware of people with sexual fetishes about (say) bile. And most of us are wary of gamers, GMs, and game-writers who would like us to participate in their sexual fetish without full consent. My take on what Arivia described, however, is that there's a bunch of gross liquids and body horror and gruesomeness in that module, of which the urine is a small corner, and so maybe it really for reals isn't actually authorial imposition of sex fetishes. At least, I think the benefit of the doubt is worth extending.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:01
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Leperflesh posted:Yeah, although they don't object to writhing in magic LSD bile, for example. I'm quite sure it's because we're aware some people have a sexual fetish about piss, but we're not acutely aware of people with sexual fetishes about (say) bile. And most of us are wary of gamers, GMs, and game-writers who would like us to participate in their sexual fetish without full consent. That’s what I was trying to get at yes (and I linked the adventure if anyone wanted to look for themselves). Having read a fair chunk of the hyper-edgy LotFP adventures, there’s nothing sexual about Lair of the Lamb. Arnold isn’t asking people to engage with the piss as a kink (there’s no troll toll, as the KC Green comic suggests), it’s explicitly disgusting and abhorrent. But it’s gross! It’s gross and it’s weird and I literally finished it with my group and went “Arnold why did you need to put the piss stuff in.” I just idk, I think my personal revulsion and disgust isn’t worth getting pitchforks and torches about, especially when it’s pretty obvious it’s not a kink thing, it’s just body horror.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:28
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Yeah if I weren’t clear, I ain’t got no beef with Arivia, I’m criticizing the module. If I said something to cause offense, I’m sorry. We can argue about the possibly puritanical feelings that urine can elicit and what’s the difference between that and any bodily fluid all day, but fundamentally, what does it add in this instance? What does it bring to the table, narratively? I’m not seeing much in its favor from a writer’s perspective. I’m not sold on bodily fluids being very effective body horror*, and as Kalamari said, you’re running hard up against a lot of people’s automatically laugh cause haha he make a stinky doodoo. Laughter is a good way to let off tension so you can keep it at a good level, but you gotta time it carefully ; people laughing at an actual set-piece can be disastrous, so maybe don’t write ones that have a high probability of that happening. And pee just isn’t scary. Sure, it’s gross but that’s all it’s got. It’s fundamentally a thing we all deal with multiple times a day. It’s gonna fall flat compared to something actually gross and scary. Raw Head is actually a great example, because Barker put it in there cause he’s a famous sex weirdo** who constantly shoots himself in the foot including poo poo like that. Like another plot point of the story is the monster is scared of menstrual blood cause it’s ooky stinky. The story is there’s a pretty okay monster and then some meh sequences interspersed with hilariously atonal weirdness. So you’ve got decent odds of making it look like you’re a piss-fetishist who doesn’t care about your players’ consent, so you can include a mildly gross thing that runs a decent risk of deflating any tension you managed to get going… Why the hell would include this? What’s the benefit? *in my experience as a horror GM, it’s much more effective to ignore static gross stuff and focus on more dynamic things, e.g. bleeding is scarier than blood. **sex and horror are like chocolate and chilies, many people like them separately, and they can go well together but it has to be done well. Clive Barker just dips lovely Halloween candy and dips them in tobasco cause he’s dollar store Geiger on a good day.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:28
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Leperflesh posted:You're basically counting on a pretty small customer base - the fans of that license who also want to play an RPG based in it, specifically for it rather than homebrewing or adapting D&D, and they can find a whole gaming group who feel the same - and that means low sales numbers on an inherently low-margin product, which limits how much money you can put into development. This may be true, but it doesn't change my feeling that every 2d20 game since John Carter of Mars has been a naked cash-grab.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:58
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Started scrolling through the links on GLOGs provided above. One of the first things I see is a set of separate tables for Male Fighter Skills and Female Fighter Skills. Never change, OSR, never change.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:29
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CitizenKeen posted:Started scrolling through the links on GLOGs provided above. One of the first things I see is a set of separate tables for Male Fighter Skills and Female Fighter Skills. Never change, OSR, never change. That sounds weird. Do you have a link? e: the GLOG community is pretty young and left-wing so I’m thinking that was a joke or something.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:35
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Arivia posted:That sounds weird. Do you have a link? I followed your link to the madqueenscourt blog, which, under "How to get started", recommended this: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/2019/10/osr-glog-based-homebrew-v2-many-rats-on.html
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Dec 11, 2021 00:53
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CitizenKeen posted:This may be true, but it doesn't change my feeling that every 2d20 game since John Carter of Mars has been a naked cash-grab. Could be. I have not looked at any of them and we haven't had any reviews or commentary on them on SA that I know of, so I'm 100% neutral on them.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:59
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CitizenKeen posted:I followed your link to the madqueenscourt blog, which, under "How to get started", recommended this: Oh, read the preceding pages on the setting. Skerples has done a lot of work actually researching and analyzing medieval society to present in his games, so there’s separate “skill tables” to reflect the different gender roles. There’s nothing there saying women are any less or different, it’s solely lifepath gender socialization stuff. (And the rules invite prominent women to enter the First and Second Estates equally.) e: it is explicitly discussed in the social contract as well. Arivia fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 01:16
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Xiahou Dun posted:**sex and horror are like chocolate and chilies, many people like them separately, and they can go well together but it has to be done well. Clive Barker just dips lovely Halloween candy and dips them in tobasco cause he’s dollar store Geiger on a good day. Lol what
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Dec 11, 2021 01:47
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Xiahou Dun posted:And pee just isn’t scary. Sure, it’s gross but that’s all it’s got. It’s fundamentally a thing we all deal with multiple times a day. It’s gonna fall flat compared to something actually gross and scary. Yeah, this is my thought on it. "The acolytes use the body fluids of the Lamb as a hallucinogen/entheogen" is fine, but having it be urine feels juvenile and boring, not particularly scary. Even having them bleed the Lamb for it would be more interesting and add more activity to the module (and poo poo, if you're going to have gonked-out priests running around, why not gonked-out priests with knives and inability to discern the correct stabbing target?), and a little more thought would give you a lot of options. Hell, maybe it's a substance that has no clear biological analogue, and maybe doesn't even look biological, but it's definitely being pulled out of subcutaneous glands of this horrible maggot-baby-god and that's not great! Honestly, a lot of the gross-out and edgelord stuff in the worse OSR product lines strikes me as being the product of a lack of imagination. "Gross things happen and then the PCs die" takes basically no mental effort to create.
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Dec 11, 2021 02:31
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Arivia posted:Oh, read the preceding pages on the setting. Skerples has done a lot of work actually researching and analyzing medieval society to present in his games, so there’s separate “skill tables” to reflect the different gender roles. There’s nothing there saying women are any less or different, it’s solely lifepath gender socialization stuff. (And the rules invite prominent women to enter the First and Second Estates equally.) Yeah one of Skerples big things is he likes to take inspiration from history and folklore for his concepts(a lot of his posts open with him talking about reading some old book from the 17th century and latching on to some old timey weird poo poo that gets mentioned in it) and in a "this is actually interesting and useful for a game" way and not "this old thing justifies me being a poo poo to my players and audience" way
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Dec 11, 2021 02:54
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Leperflesh posted:Replace class levels with XP spendable on class features, and you just got Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. You start with one of dozens of base You've got half of WFRP there. The other thing you need is a limited hp pool (rather than one that scales ridiculously) but when you run out of hp instead of dropping you start taking serious wounds with every hit you take. Wounds that are actually debilitating and take time to heal if they do at all (no healing from an amputation for example). So PCs accumulate wounds and scars over time as well as power, and you can win a fight but really wish you hadn't. The other part you need is the 2e/4e magic system (1e used a basic spell point system) where every spell has an element of risk; you roll a number of dice and on a double a mishap happens (and on a triple a bad mishap happens and you hope to never see a quadruple). You're literally risking summoning a demon when you cast a spell. As for how it plays, it has traditional problems of clunkiness, especially as you roll to attack and then the person being attacked rolls to parry, and one of the percentages (the skill system is percentile) being too low with designers who didn't realise how compound math works. There's a notorious review by Ryan Dancey praising WFRP for having a design ethos influenced by D&D 3.X although a bit simpler - and all of his examples were things WFRP 1e had done in about 1985.
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Dec 11, 2021 04:10
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Re: Skerples, that's fair, and I believe it. I also find it amusing that we got a "here's this new, hip OSR", and then the flagship adventure is apparently about body horror and body fluids, and the flagship rules have gendered backgrounds for fighters and only males can go to wizard school. Here's a game where you can be an elf, or a fishling, or a wizard, but people are still sexist for historical, medieval reasons.
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Dec 11, 2021 04:35
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CitizenKeen posted:Re: Skerples, that's fair, and I believe it. I also find it amusing that we got a "here's this new, hip OSR", and then the flagship adventure is apparently about body horror and body fluids, and the flagship rules have gendered backgrounds for fighters and only males can go to wizard school. Here's a game where you can be an elf, or a fishling, or a wizard, but people are still sexist for historical, medieval reasons. From my recollection that is entirely intentional that it's supposed to come off as ridiculous, he finds that sort of historical hypocrisy funny
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Dec 11, 2021 04:56
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