[BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- so cheesy but so good

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > [BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- so cheesy but so good

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Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

Hughmoris posted:

Ehhh, I wouldn't call Siuan a main character of the show to date

It's almost like they needed to establish her because she's not been on screen yet :thunkher:

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:00

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# ? May 20, 2024 05:23

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Moiraine and Siuan are obviously bigger in terms of story development and representation, but I was more caught off guard by Liandrin's male captain finding Northharbor.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:03

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

Re: Liandrin, I figured it was a male relative or something that could channel. I guess it could be a lover :shrug:

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:05

CainFortea: Oct 15, 2004

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Re: Liandrin, I figured it was a male relative or something that could channel. I guess it could be a lover

I'm assuming it was her darkfriend handler.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:09

jng2058: Jul 17, 2010; We have the tools, we have the talent!

I kinda like the idea that it's Fain. Who could also be her lover and/or Darkfriend handler. But since we know Fain was following Mat and Rand around the city and Liandrin knew their names but DIDN'T know Perrin and Egwene's names, it actually tracks.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:12

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

Could be that, too. I love that the show is different enough that I genuinely have no read on what's coming beyond the very broad strokes.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:13

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Re: Liandrin, I figured it was a male relative or something that could channel. I guess it could be a lover

Oh, it definitely could be one of those other things, but the thread title took me right here.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:16

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

It's a pretty good joke, ngl

# ? Dec 11, 2021 07:17

Osmosisch: Sep 9, 2007; I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."; Grimey Drawer

I think my main gripe with the series so far is the missed opportunity to make the world feel as postapocalyptic as it is in the books. Almost every traveling scene should have some evidence of lost greatness or humanity in retreat. Didn't even need to cost extra screen time or dialogue, there's plenty of slow pans already. The rebirth theme would hit extra hard then.

Aside from that i only really mind that they changed the look of the waygates, this double pillar thing is just massively boring compared to beautiful carved foliage doors. It's not like this we-have-Stargate-at-home model is any more original. Needing a channeler to open them is something that undoubtedly has been discussed internally so I'm willing to reserve judgement there.

Other than that, this has exceeded my expectations to a frankly shocking degree. I'm extremely impressed.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 08:31

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

Speaking of the waygate, did anyone else notice the channeling pattern resembled the trefoil Avendesora leaves basic shape?

# ? Dec 11, 2021 08:41

aparmenideanmonad: Jan 28, 2004; Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!; Fun Shoe

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Speaking of the waygate, did anyone else notice the channeling pattern resembled the trefoil Avendesora leaves basic shape?

Yes, I thought that was a nice touch considering they otherwise kind of erased the cool book waygates.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 08:47

CainsDescendant: Dec 6, 2007; Human nature

Osmosisch posted:

I think my main gripe with the series so far is the missed opportunity to make the world feel as postapocalyptic as it is in the books. Almost every traveling scene should have some evidence of lost greatness or humanity in retreat. Didn't even need to cost extra screen time or dialogue, there's plenty of slow pans already. The rebirth theme would hit extra hard then.

Honestly I've been super happy about just how much we've gotten, those skyscrapers in the first episode and the ruined highway/aqueduct thing they rode past in the second both made me cheer. I'm always up for more though

# ? Dec 11, 2021 08:49

its HIM: Oct 22, 2013

Lord Koth posted:

Meanwhile, here we've got all five of them wandering around in a place absolutely infested with Black Ajah and their spies, and in some cases wandering around literally right in front of them in the case of Egwene and Nynaeve in the tower, and not a single one has acted.

Trying to pull off a kidnapping in the middle of Tar Valon sounds like a highly risky endeavor that could draw the Tower's scrutiny in dangerous ways. Maybe it would be worth waiting a few days to see if the false visions sent to Siuan successfully result in her sending the kids right where you want them...

Oh, they did! Great, no need for that risky kidnapping idea now.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 08:49

Osmosisch: Sep 9, 2007; I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."; Grimey Drawer

CainsDescendant posted:

Honestly I've been super happy about just how much we've gotten, those skyscrapers in the first episode and the ruined highway/aqueduct thing they rode past in the second both made me cheer. I'm always up for more though

Yeah it did start off strong but I especially missed it during Perrin and Egwene's bogus journey.

Part of what should make Tar Valon and Caemlyn to a lesser extent so special is how they feel like some of the few remaining shining bastions.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 09:09

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

CainsDescendant posted:

Honestly I've been super happy about just how much we've gotten, those skyscrapers in the first episode and the ruined highway/aqueduct thing they rode past in the second both made me cheer. I'm always up for more though

I think we saw some ruins as Kid Siuan left home as well

# ? Dec 11, 2021 09:11

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

CainFortea posted:

All his social presence is gone. I'm guessing health reasons.

He worked up to the break caused by COVID, he didn't come back after the break, they haven't just said that he caught COVID, and all his social media presence is deleted. The most likely reason is that he's an anti-vaxxer.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 10:21

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I find myself wishing this show had longer episodes.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 10:45

ThatJesus: May 30, 2009

jng2058 posted:

Episode Six, "The Flame of Tar Valon"

Big changes yet again, but we swerve back onto the path of the book by the end of the episode. Let's break it down. (I'm doing away with the spoiler tags since they're clearly irrelevant in this thread at this point.)

What happened?

The ripples from the changes in episode four become waves here, as significant changes from the books occur. Moiraine faces the Amyrlin Seat in the Hall and is exiled from the White Tower. She also has a secret meeting with her lover, Siuan Sanche. She separates Mat from the Shadar Logoth Dagger and, by the end of the episode, gathers everyone together at a Waygate to go to Fal Dara....except that Mat does not follow the others through the Gate. To the degree that the episode follows the books at all, this episode covers chapters 41-44 of The Eye of the World where the scattered groups of travelers reunite, learn of the threat to the Eye of the World, and enter a Waygate en route to Fal Dara. Arguably, it also covers chapter 4 of The Great Hunt where Siuan publicly reprimands Moiraine but then privately conspires with her, and maybe one could also say it touches on chapter 18 of TGH where Siuan has a chat with Egwene and Nynaeve.

What did they change or add?

What didn't they change? Since this episode is entirely from Moiraine's point of view there really is only one plotline, Moiraine starring in "How I Spent My Tar Valon Vacation." So in chronological order:

Moirane, Liandrin, and Alanna in the Hall facing the Amyrlin and the Sitters obviously is new since, as we mentioned previously, none of those three were involved in Logain's capture in the books.

Logain in the books gets his trial before the Amyrlin, is found guilty, and is gentled. He is also kept in the Tower to be studied. None of this happens on page, however, we are simply told of it after the fact.

Though the circumstances are slightly different, the scene where Moiraine heals Mat of his Dagger Sicknesses pretty close to the book version, with the exception that since Rand doesn't think Mat can channel in the book, he never tries to pull a sword on Lan. Show Rand deserved what he got for trying to raise steel to Lan, however.

Moraine's spa conference with Maigan is completely new, with most of Maigan's news referring to events seen in the show...excepting the missing ships off the west coast. This is almost certainly a reference to the Seanchan fleet's approach to Toman Head. Maigan's probably going to regret investigating this oddity.

Siuan and Morgaine were "pillow friends" in the books when they were both Novices and Accepted, but the sexual relationship did not last. In the show, this has clearly changed.

Siuan's conversation with Egwene and Nynaeve is more a magic lesson in the book than a pep talk as it is here.

Moiraine is, of course, never exiled from the Tower in the books. In fact, I don't believe Moiraine is ever even at the Tower in any of the books aside from the prequel New Spring.

Moirane and Siuan believe they can destroy the Dark One at the Eye of the World in the show, this is not the case in the books.

The Waygate used in the book is in a cellar under a shop in Camelyn. It doesn't require the Power to activate in the books. Everyone goes through, including the horses and including Mat.

What got dropped entirely?

With so much new material it's hard to gauge, but most of the book action that is covered by this episode takes place in Camelyn, not Tar Valon.

So what do I think?

Well, I'm pretty certain that Mat's refusal to enter the Gate is due to Barney Harris leaving the show before the reshoots for episodes 7 and 8 could take place. It sucks, but to be honest, Mat doesn't have THAT much to do at the Eye of the World. Given the circumstances, it was probably the best solution available to them. The knock on effects of Mat not going to Fal Dara at all could be significant with regards to how things happen in The Great Hunt, but that's a season two problem.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm much happier with Moiraine + Siuan than either of the book relationships they have separately. Jordan's romance writing is often considered one of his weakest skills, and much credit to the show for improving Rand + Egwene into an actual couple and giving us Moraine + Siuan which feels like a very long standing relationship indeed.

Others have speculated that maybe Liandrin will replace Elaida as Siuan's big rival from the Red. Given that show Liandrin in just a few episodes has shown deeper characterization than book Liandrin's cartoonish evil and book Elaida's gross incompetence, I'm in favor of this change if indeed they make it. It does raise the question whether show Liandrin will actually be a Darkfriend, though. If show Liandrin really is an amalgamation of book Liandrin and book Elaida, we should recall that book Elaida wasn't a Darkfriend, she was just bad at her job. Having show Liandrin be a rival who believes she is correct even if she uses questionable methods to get there, and indeed sometimes has a point as she did with Logain, makes for a much more compelling villain than the evil for evil's sake version that was book Liandrin. On the other hand, the only Darkfriend we're certain is a Darkfriend on the show was Dana, and she was much more interesting than most book Darkfriends as well. (Yes, I know that Fain is a Darkfriend in the books, but neither has he been proven to be one in the show yet. I mean yes, Fain almost certainly is one given his trailing Mat and Rand around Tar Valon, but it isn't proven yet.)

If Liandrin is a Darkfriend, then I'll bet the man she's meeting in North Harbor is Padan Fain since that's the easiest way to explain how she learned Mat and Rand's names.

I really enjoyed watching Moiraine switching gears between hurried but efficient when talking with Lan, cold and threatening when slapping down Liandrin, and warm and welcoming when talking to Loial all within a few minutes. The Many Faces of Moiraine Sedai, one might say.

While I'm aware that some people are having more trouble with this than I am....and are posting to say so in the danker parts of the internet...I'm able to accept the "new turning of the Wheel" idea and just enjoy the show for what it is. Which I admit is slightly ironic given that I also post a "what changed" summary every week, but change isn't necessarily bad. I don't agree with all of them (I still think Laila got done dirty) but overall I'm still quite enjoying the show. Too bad there's only two episodes left in the season, I'd be happier if this went ten or more episodes per season. Maybe they'll get more episodes now that they're officially a hit? Here's hoping.

_{e: Dammit, Valda isn't a Darkfriend, he's just a garbage human being. I was thinking about Carradin, who hasn't shown up yet.}

A few pages late, but I'm really appreciating these posts!

# ? Dec 11, 2021 11:46

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

Bongo Bill posted:

I find myself wishing this show had longer episodes.

I think the episode length is fine, but if there'd been ten episodes instead of eight I think there'd be some more breathing room between some of fast-paced stuff.

We seem to get some really great characterisation scenes (Moiraine and Siuan getting down, Mat, Rand and Thom in Ep 4, Perrin and Egwene in Ep 5) but then we rush around to cover the plot at breakneck speed.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 11:48

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

were there other magical flashbacks than rand's vision in rhuidean and aviendha's near the end?

# ? Dec 11, 2021 12:25

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

ChubbyChecker posted:

were there other magical flashbacks than rand's vision in rhuidean and aviendha's near the end?

Do the IWALT alternate lives shown to Rand count?

# ? Dec 11, 2021 12:37

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

ChubbyChecker posted:

were there other magical flashbacks than rand's vision in rhuidean and aviendha's near the end?

One of those wasn't a flashback...

Anyway, closest is probably the accepted rings which are just as real as Aviendha's.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:08

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

CainFortea posted:

Also there are some leaked gifs floating around.

Lol that Perrin's been in 6 episodes and isn't even in the top 10

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:16

El Grillo: Jan 3, 2008; Fun Shoe

PupsOfWar posted:

i do think there's been a smidge too little focus on Rand and the reveal is gonna come outta nowhere to a lot of viewers

right now he's sorta just "that one friend who doesn't have anything weird going on"

foreshadowing like the door or Loial being interested in his hair are easily overshadowed by the amount of focus time every other character has gotten

Not to sound like that "Tam al'Thor is my dad for real, and he could totally beat up your dad!" poster from yesterday, but Tam being a weird retired turbo-badass is one of the things that really teases Rand's importance - I think they could easily have fit in a bit more emphasis on the heron-marked blade, for instance

The lack of the heron mark as a thing, is going to quite jarring if they suddenly try to make it a thing in season 2 or whenever.

goethe.cx posted:

I’d watch a faithful adaptation but it’s very hard to do that while making something that your average viewer would be interested in watching

I was thinking about this the other day. Obviously there are degrees of how faithful you are to/how far you depart from the source material.

I do think it's hard, and risky, to adapt something like EOTW/LOTR/GoT whilst keeping your adaptation very close to the source material. LOTR and (I think? Been a long time since I read it) GoT kept very close and pulled it off amazingly well. In fact they are the two biggest blockbuster swords-and-sorcery fantasy things of all time. But I'm sure the TV industry knows how to churn out a series that will be extremely likely to get a decent number of people watching - there are genetic formula that you see being repeated across a lot of modern streaming content, even in terms of the writing of modern series. I imagine a lot of that comes from focus grouped studies of how to get people hooked on this stuff. That's not to say that all creativity is quashed or that the process is entirely mechanistic. But my understanding is that a studio is likely to demand that the product hit certain beats to increase the likelihood of it working for their planned audience markets.

I am very interested in how and why WoT has departed so much from the source. Maybe it's mostly to do with making a show that Amazon is willing to make the bet on. But it could really be that Survivor guy thinks he has a genius vision for how WoT needed to be changed for the screen. In reality I'm sure it's somewhere in between. And who knows, maybe Rafe and the team he has around him really are good enough to pull off a GoT style success with it. Right now I don't think so, but who knows how things could improve in season 2.

Osmosisch posted:

I think my main gripe with the series so far is the missed opportunity to make the world feel as postapocalyptic as it is in the books. Almost every traveling scene should have some evidence of lost greatness or humanity in retreat. Didn't even need to cost extra screen time or dialogue, there's plenty of slow pans already. The rebirth theme would hit extra hard then.

Aside from that i only really mind that they changed the look of the waygates, this double pillar thing is just massively boring compared to beautiful carved foliage doors. It's not like this we-have-Stargate-at-home model is any more original. Needing a channeler to open them is something that undoubtedly has been discussed internally so I'm willing to reserve judgement there.

Other than that, this has exceeded my expectations to a frankly shocking degree. I'm extremely impressed.

Osmosisch posted:

Yeah it did start off strong but I especially missed it during Perrin and Egwene's bogus journey.

Part of what should make Tar Valon and Caemlyn to a lesser extent so special is how they feel like some of the few remaining shining bastions.

I actually think that part of what the show is missing in this regard, is that the post-apocalyptic atmosphere isn't just about the loss of more material things like cities and kingdoms. It's also about the loss of knowledge and history. In the books, there is a ton of stuff that most people have no idea about. History in general is kind of a mystery, which is why Gleemen hold such a powerful cultural position. By contrast, in the show everyone basically seems to know a ton of stuff right from the start. The Two Rivers people seem to be very aware of the details of Aes Sedai, the power, the Dragon, a bunch of stuff that in the books is kept much more mysterious and revealed much more slowly. The darkfriend knows that they are people of interest because one of them is the dragon. The rebirth/Wheel of Time stuff is super explicit, widely known, and universally acknowledged, like an unenforced religion that everyone just accepts for some reason. There are a ton of other examples, stuff like Rand picking up the karaethon cycle in the library and knowing what it is. Moraine just being able to trundle up to a waygate and open it; or somehow having a massive gateway terangreal in her room that she can use (and presumably set up/configure, if it really did take her to Tear); or her being able to heal the Shadar Logoth taint (lol) on her own in a few seconds; or her knowing a bunch of stuff about history that she didn't know in the books... Etc.

Given how accelerated the whole show is, it's kind of obvious why they've done it that way, but I reckon it does take away from the 'lost world' vibe.

It is also just kind of a symptom of the simplifying approach they've taken to the whole mythos and the mechanics of how the world works.

Whether that's good or bad for the adaptation is subjective ofc.

El Grillo fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Dec 11, 2021

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:30

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Btw one side effect of spending time on Siuan�s origin story is that it introduces Tear.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:37

El Grillo: Jan 3, 2008; Fun Shoe

^^if they are skipping Falme entirely and merging it with Tear as the finale of season 2, that might make sense that they're doing it now.

And if that's the case holy crap, they're condensing things even more than I figured.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:39

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

i hope not

falme loving ruled

but, they've earnt my goodwill, so bring it on

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:40

Devorum: Jul 30, 2005

Are...are shows not allowed to introduce a location unless it's going to be the Next Big Location?

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:47

CainFortea: Oct 15, 2004

Devorum posted:

Are...are shows not allowed to introduce a location unless it's going to be the Next Big Location?

There are people who are going "Shows terrible gently caress rafe" because the booty call ter'angreal was not fully explained in the episode it was introduced in. So yea, there are people who will absolutely be mad about that.

Edit: Also, pretty sure LotR movies were about as faithful as WoTshow has been so far.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:52

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

people being mad about how specifically the ter'angreal works is like the biggest 'who cares' moment i've had so far in an already steadily mounting heap of them

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:54

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

Johnny Joestar posted:

people being mad about how specifically the ter'angreal works is like the biggest 'who cares' moment i've had so far in an already steadily mounting heap of them

For me it's people outraged at the design of a Waygate

# ? Dec 11, 2021 13:57

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

Rarity posted:

For me it's people outraged at the design of a Waygate

100%. It�s a jump gate / wormhole / magic door. That�s all one needs to know.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:09

CainFortea: Oct 15, 2004

Beefeater1980 posted:

100%. It�s a jump gate / wormhole / magic door. That�s all one needs to know.

It does make me wonder what else changed to precipitate that. Or if it was a cost measure.

I also wonder if they had that whole time dilation thing originally, but had to cut that out with the mat sendoff edit.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:11

KOGAHAZAN!!: Apr 29, 2013; a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Rarity posted:

Lol that Perrin's been in 6 episodes and isn't even in the top 10

He's a quiet boy

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:13

Invalid Validation: Jan 13, 2008

Gotta do something with those old Stargate props.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:15

MegaZeroX: Dec 11, 2013; "I'm Jack Frost, ho! Nice to meet ya, hee ho!"

cailleask posted:

Y�all. I hate insta, but this is 100% worth the hassle. https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXUAleGgmYw/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

You can also see it on YouTube here, where it was first uploaded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBfCZH200w

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:19

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

i hope the forsaken are a proper mindfuck for show-only viewers who still expect it to be this 100% fantasy ordeal

# ? Dec 11, 2021 14:43

SerSpook: Feb 13, 2012

Johnny Joestar posted:

i hope the forsaken are a proper mindfuck for show-only viewers who still expect it to be this 100% fantasy ordeal

super excited to see the reactions to ishamael, when we see him

# ? Dec 11, 2021 15:27

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

El Grillo posted:

^^if they are skipping Falme entirely and merging it with Tear as the finale of season 2, that might make sense that they're doing it now.

And if that's the case holy crap, they're condensing things even more than I figured.

I don't think this is happening since a) Falme had its own entry in that costuming reference map that got posted a while back, and b) this episode mentions ships disappearing in the *west*, not the south.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 15:42

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# ? May 20, 2024 05:23

Hughmoris: Apr 21, 2007; Let's go to the abyss!

Rarity posted:

Lol that Perrin's been in 6 episodes and isn't even in the top 10

KOGAHAZAN!! posted:

He's a quiet boy

Hughmoris posted:

... The dude playing Perrin can't act and the wolf scenes felt like The CW.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 16:02

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > [BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- so cheesy but so good

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