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ArfJason posted:Few thoughts on sniper I think snipers are OK in a vacuum. The main problem is that their design drastically increases the reward for cheating. Occasionally you'll see someone playing heavy or scout or DH soldier with hacks and yeah that gets annoying, but an aimbot only goes so far for them; even if you nail people 100% of the time you still have to stick your neck out to get kills and you will still die to lucky or good players. The secondary problem is that maps have to be designed very carefully around snipers. Or maybe it's more fair to say that it makes many map flaws much more punishing, since I'm not sure the features that make snipers oppressive (huge sightlines, lack of effective flanks) are otherwise desirable anyhow, but their problems get magnified when there's a really good (or aimbotting) sniper around. Risk seems like a very accurate way of looking at both of these issues. It's also a good way to highlight the differences between a sniper that really knows what they're doing vs. one that doesn't; a great sniper doesn't necessarily need to have spectacular headshot accuracy if they're good at positioning and managing risk and can potentially carry a game in a way that doesn't destroy the game's fun for anyone, it only really turns into a problem in situations where being good at positioning and managing risk simply equals "sit on the sniper deck."
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Dec 13, 2021 18:59
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I just don't like getting quickscoped at short range.  You do the work to exploit what should be the sniper's weakness, and then suddenly it doesn't matter because he can do 50% more damage on his first mouse click than any other class can manage. In a game about positioning and managing classes based on their effective ranges, having the class who is invariably supposed to be weak at close range actually be the most dangerous at close range to half the classes is the worst.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:16
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Have you tried quick scoping a Scout that's in youe face?
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Dec 13, 2021 19:19
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A lot of the classes can take that quick scope and live though. I mean, surely you didn't do a silly thing like shooting at your own feet with an explosive before you made it over to me. That'd be a real silly thing to do!
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Dec 13, 2021 19:21
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reignofevil posted:A lot of the classes can take that quick scope and live though. I mean, surely you didn't do a silly thing like shooting at your own feet with an explosive before you made it over to me. That'd be a real silly thing to do! Yes, simply close the distance to the sniper using the safe and convenient flanking route that mapmakers thoughtfully provide for every good sniper perch. It's not like there are spots where snipers covering the point can easily kill you long before you can reach them on any approach that doesn't involve multi-explosion jumping.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:24
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Or the invincible class. Or the invisible class. Or just grab scout-bonk.
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Dec 13, 2021 19:31
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ubering to push on the sniper
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Dec 13, 2021 19:48
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Were unusual hats the first NFT?
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Dec 13, 2021 20:30
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Snipers to my mind are pretty well-balanced. When they're overpowered, it's because the mapmaker gave them too good of a position. On most maps they're fine. If I were to change anything about them I'd put in a bit more delay while scoping in, so that players would have more of a reason to use the SMG. Quickscoping is so reliable at all distances that there's no reason to waste the slot on a sidearm.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:49
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Roth posted:Have you tried quick scoping a Scout that's in youe face? This isn't a matter of "does it take skill to pull off", like most things surrounding the balance problems Sniper has it is admittedly something only good Snipers(not counting bots or cheaters) can consistently pull off, the problem is that in spite of the skill needed to pull off a close range Quick Scope(or indeed any Quick Scope) getting killed by one is always going to be an unfun bullshit experience, while comparing it to something similarly high skilled like getting Market Gardened feels much more fair due to the extremely high risk of that play style even at the highest tiers Kaal posted:Snipers to my mind are pretty well-balanced. When they're overpowered, it's because the mapmaker gave them too good of a position. On most maps they're fine. If I were to change anything about them I'd put in a bit more delay while scoping in, so that players would have more of a reason to use the SMG. Quickscoping is so reliable at all distances that there's no reason to waste the slot on a sidearm. I'd say my suggestion about making head shots only crit on full charge is the better solution, as the issue isn't that he can instant kill people, it's how fast and consistently he can do so that is the problem, it's the one spot in TF2's otherwise really good balance regarding the speed/pacing of the game needs fixing(well besides maybe giving Engineer something to swap out Teleporters for on maps where those aren't very useful) The fact that it would indirectly buff The Classic, Sydney Sleeper, and Huntsman is a happy bonus
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Dec 13, 2021 22:16
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drrockso20 posted:(well besides maybe giving Engineer something to swap out Teleporters for on maps where those aren't very useful) i believe it's bound to , by default
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Dec 13, 2021 22:37
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the holy poopacy posted:i believe it's bound to , by default Outside of a couple exceptions like Nucleus most maps will still have the rest of Engineer's kit be useful even when Teleporters aren't, like Sentries are almost always useful(though whether stock or minis are the more practical choice varies) and same for Dispensers(though on some maps it might not be worth upgrading them past level one due to how vulnerable the best spots for them will be, unless you want to prebuild them at Spawn that is), meanwhile Teleporters can often be suboptimal due to the amount of work and metal needed to be put into them when combined with certain maps either being too small(like most KOTH and CTF maps) or move the spawn rooms too often(most 5CP maps and quite a few Payload maps too) There's a reason a lot of people have been suggesting giving Engineer some sort of "Jump Pad" or "Speed Boost Pad" as a Teleporter replacement for most of the game's lifespan
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Dec 13, 2021 22:57
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I will never stop saying that the Huntsman should've been the default sniper weapon
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Dec 13, 2021 23:05
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I agree with you in the sense that it's not hitscan and there's big upsides to that, but the actual implementation of the huntsman is incredibly hosed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvOaUF1Sl5c
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Dec 13, 2021 23:17
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Abroham Lincoln posted:I will never stop saying that the Huntsman should've been the default sniper weapon Personally I think the Sydney Sleeper would be the better choice in that regard(since Sniper is supposed to be a Support class after all), but I can see your point IronicDongz posted:I agree with you in the sense that it's not hitscan and there's big upsides to that, but the actual implementation of the huntsman is incredibly hosed True the way the Huntsman interacts with hitboxes is a tad ridiculous, though you would have to be careful fixing that cause there's a very high likelihood that you would end up making it useless
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Dec 13, 2021 23:26
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You could remove the bounding box behavior so it actually has to hit directly, and then perhaps increase its projectile speed a bit to compensate. I do think that the huntsman introduces more "spammy" behavior than the regular rifle, which leads to players shooting arrows at chokes in the hopes of getting a lucky headshot without actually aiming at someone. Which I don't honestly have strong feelings about, but it's a bit counter to what a 'precision' class is implicitly supposed to be about. And spam that kills you in one lucky hit is a bit different than spam that just takes off a chunk of HP. You could mitigate that by giving sniper a way to 'mark' a target at range, making them take increased damage-so if sniper wanted to get "delete the guy in one hit" type damage he would have to commit to aiming at a specific guy, instead of spamming arrows towards where enemies are likely to be. Something like a laser dot rangefinder sort of gadget. Hell, that could be huntsman alt-fire. But at this point I'm talking basically redesigning the class from the ground up, so whatever.
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Dec 13, 2021 23:32
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drrockso20 posted:Personally I think the Sydney Sleeper would be the better choice in that regard(since Sniper is supposed to be a Support class after all), but I can see your point The Sleeper's a valid option too imo, where the Huntsman could just as well be the high damage/less reliable alternate I was thinking more in lines of "and also this gets rid of spinning aimbots" but in a perfect world that's just dealt with anyway 
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Dec 13, 2021 23:39
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drrockso20 posted:This isn't a matter of "does it take skill to pull off", like most things surrounding the balance problems Sniper has it is admittedly something only good Snipers(not counting bots or cheaters) can consistently pull off, the problem is that in spite of the skill needed to pull off a close range Quick Scope(or indeed any Quick Scope) getting killed by one is always going to be an unfun bullshit experience, while comparing it to something similarly high skilled like getting Market Gardened feels much more fair due to the extremely high risk of that play style even at the highest tiers Is quick scoping scouts up close not incresibly risky now? You get like one shot if you were lucky to not just get dropped while distracted by the medic and missing means your dead. I am really wondering how many of you guys even regularly play Sniper because you're approaching this like basically every sniper doesn't just eat poo poo 99% of the time if any class gets near him.
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Dec 14, 2021 00:14
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Abroham Lincoln posted:The Sleeper's a valid option too imo, where the Huntsman could just as well be the high damage/less reliable alternate That's one of the big reasons for my "crits on head shots requires a full charge" idea, would severely gimp that sort of thing
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Dec 14, 2021 00:26
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The only change sniper should need is to not be able to headshot while flinching. Suddenly every major complaint I can think of about sniper has a valid way of dealing with it.
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Dec 14, 2021 00:36
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That will definitely go over well for the class that is the second most targeted class in the game
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Dec 14, 2021 00:45
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If one can't touch Sniper himself then one should definitely touch a lot of the maps to reduce the amount of gaping sniper sight lines that many maps have to reduce the crappy situations where a Sniper can snipe you from half the map away and be basically untouchable* *see the segment in LazyPurple's How It Feels To Play Sniper where he gets counter sniped on Thunder Mountain stage 1 for an especially egregious example of this
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Dec 14, 2021 01:05
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The best idea I've heard for Sniper is actually just to give his rifle a clip that needs to be reloaded after four shots.
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Dec 14, 2021 01:24
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Roth posted:That will definitely go over well for the class that is the second most targeted class in the game
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Dec 14, 2021 01:44
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sockpuppetclock posted:You're right, it would! It'd make not being an open target a needed skill and add an actual way to fight hackers. Forcing snipers to reload wouldn't solve any issue that happens the other 90% of the time they can shoot Not being an open target is already a needed skill. Scouts and Soldiers dive just to kill Snipers almost as much as they dive to kill Medics. Snipers on the other team are looking to shut you down. Spies will just backstab or revolver you at basically every opportunity. Making it so that Sniper is unplayable because a Scout can hit you with a Scattergun pellet for 3 damage from across the map because of hackers is a dumb idea, I'm sorry. The flinch itself is already messing up your aim in a way that severely increases the difficulty of landing that shot in the first place. Maps are already designed so that Snipers can be harassed by people shooting pistols and shotguns at them, and it has nothing to do with the Sniper stupidly putting themself in harm's way. What this and the fully charged shot idea do is just upgrade a really difficult to win up close fight with a Scout or Soldier to impossible, and severely hamper his ability to do his intended long range damage to the point that he's not even worth picking. All you've accomplished with these nerfs is make it so that Sniper can't do anything but hide in a corner, hope nobody notices him, and then peaks out for an instant kill. Sounds like a really riveting time, sign me up. I'm sure people definitely won't complain about getting insta killed by a player they had no warning of. If you want hackers taken care of, then actually implement features to prevent hackers and bots instead of nerfing a class in every mode of play.
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Dec 14, 2021 02:41
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yeah seriously what the gently caress is this about nerfing a class because of hackers. thats like saying they shouldnt let you walljump in mario64 because a TAS can beat rainbow ride by doing frame perfect walljumps to engage with what is being said a bit less flippantly, maybe give the sniper's scope more zoom. make him harder to win up close, a bit more challenging in mid range, and then long range he barely gets affected.
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Dec 14, 2021 02:51
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I don't even consider it a nerf, it's an aspect of gameplay that already happens (headshotting while flinching is already really difficult) but is made consistent. Flinching is real short iirc, if you're under enough constant fire that you are flinching 100% of the time you're already effectively nullified. I didn't mean to make it sound like it's just to nerf for combat hacking
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Dec 14, 2021 03:08
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drrockso20 posted:I'd say my suggestion about making head shots only crit on full charge is the better solution, as the issue isn't that he can instant kill people, it's how fast and consistently he can do so that is the problem, it's the one spot in TF2's otherwise really good balance regarding the speed/pacing of the game needs fixing(well besides maybe giving Engineer something to swap out Teleporters for on maps where those aren't very useful) The fact that it would indirectly buff The Classic, Sydney Sleeper, and Huntsman is a happy bonus If a Sniper only crit on full charge, it would probably halve their damage output. A minicrit does only 36 percent more damage than a body shot - there's hardly any point. And getting a full charge takes more than three seconds. It would be a massive nerf. If you're worried about getting Quickscoped, then keep pinging the Sniper with minor shots to disrupt their aim.
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Dec 14, 2021 04:31
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As an Engineer, presumably, you have 200 pistol ammo, so there's no worry at all about running out of that.
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Dec 14, 2021 04:53
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most of the time when I see a good sniper pubstomping he is able to do so because he hits a couple of good shots and everyone starts acting like he is an untouchable god raining instant kills down from on high. they become afraid of him, and so instead of throwing spam and harassment at him they just try to avoid ever going into his sightline. as it turns out, it's like 1 million times easier to land headshots if you get to just sit there and pick off one guy at a time. it's very hard to land headshots when you have 0.1 seconds to line it up and hit it in between dodging rockets and flares and checking for spies and backing up. there are a couple of snipers out there that can still annihilate everyone even in those situations, but like 99% of the ones you see out there pubstomping can't. throw enough bullshit at them and they'll go from deleting everyone to barely making 1/1 kd.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:40
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On a whim, I ended up buying some stuff from Marketplace.TF. First purchase I made from them since a year ago (around when they were changing up their seller policies). At the time, it sort of sounded like it was the end of the road for them, but they're still going (they're still accepting new sellers, but they have to go through vetting). Bought some MvM tickets, Secret Saxtons, and two keys (one regular, one for the 2021 hat cases). With tickets, I've got enough for like 5 MvM tours. I don't know what the meta game is for non-standard keys. - On to the actual game itself, I've not played a whole lot of the new Smissmas maps, save for Doublefrost (because the only thing better than Doublecross, is a winter-themed Doublecross). I was excited for Bread Space, since I saw it was making use of the space assets, but the map itself...I dunno, it seems way to big, and easy to get lost in. Part of the reason I've not played a lot of the new Smissmas maps has to do with what seems to be a new uptick in bots (the Festive Hitmen), so I've mostly been sticking to community servers. I guess the new issue now is that the bots can vote against the kick. I'm still trying to work on the ConTracker. As part of the Offense Contracts, I went with Pyro, but the current issue I have with all the contract paths is with the ones involving weapon selections: I don't want to pick something where I'm going to get stuck (Offense: Soda Popper, Black Box, Flare Gun / Support: Big Earner, Amputator, Jarate / Defense: Loose Cannon, Fists of Steel, Wrangler). I thought about going Black Box, Amputator, and Fists of Steel, but the goals for each make me uncertain. Any suggestions? Reiley posted:As an Engineer, presumably, you have 200 pistol ammo, so there's no worry at all about running out of that. And the Engineer's pistol is pretty good at mid-range. I wish Demoman had a larger ammo pool was Demoman's Grenade Launcher, but that's only because I never really learned how to use stickies. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 05:55
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Back in the day demoman and soldier had enormous ammo reserves and you could spam them all day. They were nerfed super early on though.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:12
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Kaal posted:If a Sniper only crit on full charge, it would probably halve their damage output. A minicrit does only 36 percent more damage than a body shot - there's hardly any point. And getting a full charge takes more than three seconds. It would be a massive nerf. If you're worried about getting Quickscoped, then keep pinging the Sniper with minor shots to disrupt their aim. To be fair I did mention in one of my earlier posts that I was picturing their Mini-Crit damage getting raised up a fair amount to make up for it(like to say 110 damage or something), not enough to one shot anyone at full health(besides a Kunai/Big Earner Spy or Sandman Scout) but enough that Light classes would need to retreat or die to a second shot(or a clip of SMG bullets or a melee swing or an ally capping them) and the heavier classes besides Heavy(or maybe a Eyelander Demo-Knight with a bunch of heads and the booties) would be seriously hurt if they weren't overhealed beforehand Essentially part of the idea is to not only make Stock, Bazaar Bargain, and Hitman's Heatmaker less dominant but to also make the differences the latter two have from stock more meaningful since charged shots are more important now(might have to reduce the initial charge penalty the BB has though), and it also indirectly buffs the Huntsman(because it would be unaffected by these changes entirely), Sydney Sleeper(both because it would be doing more damage in general thanks to the buff to mini-crit damage but also it's other aspects would make it potentially more appealing to Snipers who favor quick scoping over full charge shots even if it still wouldn't be able to full crit), and The Classic(it's still a tad weak in terms of overall damage but the utility of not having to stay zoomed would be more appealing than it currently is, at least assuming we leave it otherwise untouched, which probably depends on how attached we are on it being a direct port of the TFC Sniper Rifle, personally I'd ditch the "can only headshot on a full charge" mechanic it currently has to instead use the "mini-crits on uncharged and partially charged shots, full crits on full charge" mechanic I'm suggesting for the other rifles), only the Machina/Shooting Star is left relatively unchanged by this in terms of ranking among Sniper's primaries(mostly because it's main upside is situational at best even with these changes and it's main downside is still pretty bad)
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Dec 14, 2021 06:35
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i'm genuinely curious as to where this "sniper shouldn't be able to kill people by shooting them in the head" thing came from because as far as I can tell it only really started in the passed couple of years despite sniper being unchanged for literally 12 years prior to that surely people aren't actually considering literal aimbots as their metric for whether the class is overpowered
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Dec 14, 2021 08:33
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cock hero flux posted:i'm genuinely curious as to where this "sniper shouldn't be able to kill people by shooting them in the head" thing came from because as far as I can tell it only really started in the passed couple of years despite sniper being unchanged for literally 12 years prior to that So long as there has been Sniper, there has been bitching about Sniper.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:44
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My Second Re-Reg posted:So long as there has been Sniper, there has been bitching about Sniper. sure, every class has a certain level of background complaining, but the current thing with sniper is that people are actively advocating for his core mechanic to get completely gutted and are not immediately being laughed out it's like the equivalent of me sitting here and going "yeah soldier shouldn't be allowed to be tanky and mobile so really they should just remove rocket jumping" and everyone like, nodding along and seriously discussing the suggestion cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:53
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I think we're all just so comforted to see a class balance discussion in the TF2 thread like in the old times, that we're just letting it happen to bask in the nostalgia.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:15
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I'll admit if the Bot Crisis hadn't happened my feelings on Sniper would probably be more mild but he definitely does need tweaking
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Dec 14, 2021 10:39
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He does not.
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Dec 14, 2021 10:50
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the bazaar bargain could stand a nerf
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Dec 14, 2021 10:53
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