(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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I can't get over how Russia is part of GDI, but I guess that depends on how you think alt-WW2 turned out. I think in the 1990s people really thought Russia would go toward the West. I remember in one of the future scenarios in Aerobiz Supersonic that Russia ends up joining the EU.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:44
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Edit: Argh.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:45
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It's not alt-history. The game came out in 1995 that's why the GDI is formed by the G7. Russia joined and turned it into G8 in 1997 in the real world, same year as the first game takes place in.
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Dec 14, 2021 05:51
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Nod is based.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:06
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Lostconfused posted:It's not alt-history. Are we not talking about a game universe where Hitler was assassinated by a time traveling Einstein?
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Dec 14, 2021 06:14
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paperwind posted:Are we not talking about a game universe where Hitler was assassinated by a time traveling Einstein? I think what Lostconfused is saying is that it was somewhat reasonable for someone writing in 1995 to assume that Russia would end up joining the European Community, and in turn that the extrapolation that it would become part of the fictional GDI was not all that far-fetched.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:18
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paperwind posted:Are we not talking about a game universe where Hitler was assassinated by a time traveling Einstein? C&C was heavily, heavily influenced by the gulf war and 90's end of history bullshit, as well as a prescient idea of international asymmetric warfare between a western controlled defence pact and a third world terror organisation becoming the norm and future. Red alert came afterward and retconned all the time travel stuff in.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:19
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paperwind posted:Are we not talking about a game universe where Hitler was assassinated by a time traveling Einstein? Nope. C&C Red Alert came out next year in 1996 and that's the alternate timeline to the C&C Tiberium timeline which is continued in Tiberian Sun released in 1999.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:27
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Ok carry on then. I get why at the time game developers might have cause to believe Russia was going to pivot toward the west, given the geopolitical realities of the early to mid 1990s.
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Dec 14, 2021 06:47
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There was a very clear feeling in at least West until the early 2000s that Russia was now on our side and an “ally” sort of how we view Vietnam now on our team. If anything the mid 1990s is when writers were struggling to come a threatening villain, it is why NOD is just pretty much the global south and has a goofy cult vibe to it. (This is also the era when aliens/natural disasters showed up a lot in Hollywood.) Btw, Red Alert and C&C are “sort of” suppose to be in the same timeline since Kane is in both and I think GDI is mentioned at some point. It doesn’t make that much sense but it is also a series of goofy rts games. I mean in the last Red Alert, Japan has gundams, kind of hard to square that. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 07:11 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 07:07
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paperwind posted:I can't get over how Russia is part of GDI, but I guess that depends on how you think alt-WW2 turned out. I think we could have had a future where relations with Russia were normal, but that would have required the US to not insist on punishing thr country for ever having dared to oppose Capitalism, and the need for us to expand NATO to bring mor rubes into our imperial adventures and to sell them useless weapons KomradeX has issued a correction as of 07:18 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 07:15
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making them still be bad guys to sell weapons is the point tho
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Dec 14, 2021 07:24
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KomradeX posted:I think we could have had a future where relations with Russia were normal, but that would have required the US to not insist on punishing thr country for ever having dared to oppose Capitalism, and the need for us to expand NATO to bring mor rubes into our imperial adventures and to sell them useless weapons Part of it I think just came down to the fact that Russia even in a weaken state was too powerful and threatening to American hegemony for an actual peaceful relationship to form and most of our actions seem opportunistic while they were still “down and out.” Basically, it was basically destined for someone like Putin to take power and for the general frame on events to happen. Also, China clearly has been this into account and I think it has a lot of influence on the perspective of the Central Committee across the 2000s.
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Dec 14, 2021 07:24
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I think that at some point there was a plan for Red Alert and Tiberian Dawn to have been on the same timeline, because one of the early Allied missions talks about the formation of a Global Defense Initiative in response to Soviet aggression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYdt8lmfoA&t=508s and you could sort of squint and see it: if we place the events of Red Alert 1 in the late 70s / early 80s considering the tech level depicted (Abrams tanks, Apache helicopters, MiG-29s), then the events of Tiberian Dawn would play out in the late 90s/early 2000s however, by the time they did Red Alert 2, it was clear that they intended for these timelines to have diverged entirely, since RA2 (and RA3) necessitates further Allied v Soviet wars after RA1 that would no longer fit in however many years there were before the planet was seeded with Tiberium EDIT - digging into this a bit more: * we do see Kane show up as Stalin's advisor in the Soviet missions, and the plot alludes to Nadia, one of the Soviet commanders, as being a member of Nod * RA1 is also supposed to have taken place in the 1950s, especially with Stalin still being alive, but it does seem like a bit of a stretch given the tech, unless we also grant that no Nazi-WW2 means you get jet fighters and main battle tanks all that sooner quote:A much debated theory intended to resolve the apparent timeline error which came to exist between Command & Conquer and Red Alert 2 is to consider Red Alert as the genesis of two parallel storylines. If the Soviet campaign were to be completed in Red Alert, the USSR would emerge as the dominant Eurasian power and Kane and the Brotherhood of Nod would subsequently take control of this new empire. Conversely, if the Allied campaign were to be completed, the Allies would emerge victorious and the timeline would instead lead into the events of Red Alert 2 (though Red Alert 2 completely ignores anything that could connect it to the Tiberium timeline). According to former C&C designer Adam Isgreen, however, Tiberian Dawn in fact follows on the conclusion of Red Alert's Allies campaign,[16] while Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge take place in a second parallel universe, created by a new attempt to alter history in "Incursion",[17] the working title of Westwood Studios' cancelled version of Command & Conquer 3. gradenko_2000 has issued a correction as of 07:32 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 07:25
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Admittedly, Stalin is in the first one and it could arguably be in the late 1940s/early 1950s. The other 2 are so out there who knows. I mean by the late 1940s jet fighters and main battle tanks existed but yeah a lot of the characters don’t make sense like Tanya (basically Lara Craft). It very well may be the writing is just over the place. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 07:36 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 07:32
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the soviet ending in ra1 spells out that the game is a prequel to the first c&c you dont need to do mental gymnastics
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Dec 14, 2021 07:35
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Ardennes posted:Part of it I think just came down to the fact that Russia even in a weaken state was too powerful and threatening to American hegemony for an actual peaceful relationship to form and most of our actions seem opportunistic while they were still “down and out.” Even if the Red Army was a shadow of its former self, they still haff enough nukes where we couldn't pick on them and strong arm them like our other client states, so I guess the US was never really going to let relations normalize, instead we're stuck playing a shadow game against them. Still I looked to think there's at least a plausible timeline that wasn't so poo poo Its plainly obvious the Chinese looked at what happened to the Soviet Union and Russia in the 90s and saw that's what was in store for them if the US ever gets the upper hand against them KomradeX has issued a correction as of 07:39 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 07:37
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id have been a totally different person without red alert 1 and its positive portrayal of the Soviet Union. god bless
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Dec 14, 2021 07:41
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Still funny that GDI and Nod are basically just GI Joe and Cobra
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Dec 14, 2021 07:55
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KomradeX posted:Even if the Red Army was a shadow of its former self, they still haff enough nukes where we couldn't pick on them and strong arm them like our other client states, so I guess the US was never really going to let relations normalize, instead we're stuck playing a shadow game against them. Still I looked to think there's at least a plausible timeline that wasn't so poo poo I actually don’t think a good timeline was possible after 1945: the Soviets could only last so long and once FDR died, the loons were in power. The world was destined to go to poo poo. The more you look at it, you realized how locked in we have been longer than most of us have been alive. (Also, GDI was also very bland, it was more like some subsection of the military industrial complex going to war with Cobra. It is why the only thing people remember from those games is Nod/Kane.) Ardennes has issued a correction as of 08:09 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:06
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Ardennes posted:(Also, GDI was also very bland, it was more like some subsection of the military industrial complex going to war with Cobra. It is why the only thing people remember from those games is Nod/Kane.) So, GI Joe. Though the joke is more that Cobra is also the military industrial complex. Though, I still love the interpretation/theory that it was basically a pyramid scheme/scam company cooked up by Cobra Commander that ended up shockingly successful beyond his wildest dreams and attracting military backers, terrorists and mad scientists until he went gently caress it, let's give this world domination thing a shot for realsies. Though I mean more, I know the original gameplay was based on Dune, but in the era where most RTSes were obviously filing the serial numbers of something else (Warcraft) or flat out historical (Age of Empires) it isn't too surprising that a company basically files the serial numbers off GI Joe and Cobra for their totally original new series. (Nod even has a venomous animal as a symbol and all) And even has the traditions of faction heroes, signature vehicles and weapons, and distinct iconography. Also reminds me- Halo having originally been designed/planned as a RTS explains a lot, especially why it's one of the last FPSes of the era it started to have distinct, diverse and interesting weapons, enemies and vehicles.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:44
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reading-history-for-the-first-time.txt
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Dec 14, 2021 09:16
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now you'll tell me the Dalai Lama was Vice Chairperson of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, the highest government body in China, for 10 1/2 years
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Dec 14, 2021 09:21
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Ardennes posted:I actually don’t think a good timeline was possible after 1945: the Soviets could only last so long and once FDR died, the loons were in power. The world was destined to go to poo poo. Eh if you look at it like this then the further back you go the longer we seem locked in until you find a point in history you don't know enough about to conclude this. I don't buy it though. While there are very understandable reasons for why post WW2 history went the way it did, concluding that it was inevitable is both not helpful and not interesting.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:26
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Orange Devil posted:Eh if you look at it like this then the further back you go the longer we seem locked in until you find a point in history you don't know enough about to conclude this. The Second World War could have gone multiple ways and/or FDR could have lived long etc. I don’t think everything was baked in from the get go, but the post-was order was and it has been continuously grinding way the last 70 years. There was no way for the Soviets to win in the long run. It was clear when Truman took office, the US was going to go on a different trajectory. It hasn’t stopped from that trajectory.
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Dec 14, 2021 10:10
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Ardennes posted:Part of it I think just came down to the fact that Russia even in a weaken state was too powerful and threatening to American hegemony for an actual peaceful relationship to form and most of our actions seem opportunistic while they were still “down and out.” The US was successful in turning Ukraine into a completely neutered state with almost no cost. They go too greedy and tried to do that to Russia. I kind of think that part of the earth need a strongman to keep things in control (due to huge part of the country depends on subsidized economy and other reasons)
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Dec 14, 2021 10:29
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Antonymous posted:now you'll tell me the Dalai Lama was Vice Chairperson of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, the highest government body in China, for 10 1/2 years lol, stayed on even with that little incident halfway through
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Dec 14, 2021 11:05
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stephenthinkpad posted:The US was successful in turning Ukraine into a completely neutered state with almost no cost. They go too greedy and tried to do that to Russia. I'm still mostly convinced that the reason for current US - Russia hostility is mostly because they had to apply pressure in Europe to keep NATO around. After all, the Russian elite now is a product of the murderous oligarchy the US helped come to power and it's not inconceivable that they'd just be folded under the US hegemony like the French and British empires had been. Both countries with nukes and at least France still showing some signs of independence from time to time. But they had to find something to keep NATO going so they intervened in Kosovo, the farce after tragedy of the Balkan wars, which according to the Warnerd guys is when Russians really soured on the West. Though I think the real break with Putin's faction came over Libya.
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Dec 14, 2021 11:48
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gradenko_2000 posted:Obama spent like 300 billion on refreshing them so probably
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Dec 14, 2021 11:55
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Ardennes posted:I actually don’t think a good timeline was possible after 1945: the Soviets could only last so long and once FDR died, the loons were in power. The world was destined to go to poo poo. Eh, why? After all, both North Korea and Cuba are still around. But I guess if I had to point to a single point of failure I'd say failing to patch up the Sino-Soviet split would be it?
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Dec 14, 2021 11:58
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Ardennes posted:The Second World War could have gone multiple ways and/or FDR could have lived long etc. I don’t think everything was baked in from the get go, but the post-was order was and it has been continuously grinding way the last 70 years. There was no way for the Soviets to win in the long run. So why do you think FDR could have set the US on a different trajectory, but no other president since Truman could have been able to change the US' trajectory? And why could WW2 have gone multiple ways but not the Cold War? stephenthinkpad posted:I kind of think that part of the earth need a strongman to keep things in control (due to huge part of the country depends on subsidized economy and other reasons) This is pretty hosed reasoning tbh.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:15
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im gonna need a 3 chen weihuas shirt
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Dec 14, 2021 12:17
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genericnick posted:I'm still mostly convinced that the reason for current US - Russia hostility is mostly because they had to apply pressure in Europe to keep NATO around. After all, the Russian elite now is a product of the murderous oligarchy the US helped come to power and it's not inconceivable that they'd just be folded under the US hegemony like the French and British empires had been. Both countries with nukes and at least France still showing some signs of independence from time to time. But they had to find something to keep NATO going so they intervened in Kosovo, the farce after tragedy of the Balkan wars, which according to the Warnerd guys is when Russians really soured on the West. Though I think the real break with Putin's faction came over Libya. Also a good theory, using high pressure "competition with a cast out bad guy" to keep the rest of the regional smaller guys in check is how US control Middle East, with Iran permanently in the bad guy dog house; Also Nicaragua > Venezuela in South America; also how the US elites control the domestic politic with play up fuel between 2 parties which are 80% similar.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:18
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Joe "slow train" Biden.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:25
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Orange Devil posted:This is pretty hosed reasoning tbh. not really
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Dec 14, 2021 14:01
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Ukraine needs a man of steel.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:05
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paperwind posted:I can't get over how Russia is part of GDI, but I guess that depends on how you think alt-WW2 turned out. Haven't been reading this thread but did anybody mention the Tom Clancy book where China invades Russia and the US invites Russia into NATO? Because that one was completely bonkers. I read it as a teenager and didn't really get how just about everything in that book is just pure right wingers' wet dream splattered all over the pages even though it's so obvious now looking back at it
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Dec 14, 2021 14:29
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Ardennes posted:Part of it I think just came down to the fact that Russia even in a weaken state was too powerful and threatening to American hegemony for an actual peaceful relationship to form and most of our actions seem opportunistic while they were still “down and out.” also the military industrial complex runs america and they didn't want to stop running america once they become pointless
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Dec 14, 2021 14:33
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can someone who can read chinese please tell me if this is an accurate reading of the text in question this person is theorizing that this suggests china will start letting international students back into the country in march https://twitter.com/aaananaga/status/1469808271007825921
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Dec 14, 2021 14:48
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Orange Devil posted:So why do you think FDR could have set the US on a different trajectory, but no other president since Truman could have been able to change the US' trajectory? FDR was last US president to actually be willing to work with the Soviets if not let them honestly participate in Western organizations. Once Truman came to power that ended and the stage was set. quote:And why could WW2 have gone multiple ways but not the Cold War? WW2 was a true brawl with unclear outcome at the outset and could have lead to a substantially different world order depending on circumstances. How about if Overlord failed and the Soviets came to dominate most of Central Europe, for example? quote:This is pretty hosed reasoning tbh. There is perhaps an argument for a more centralized government but I don’t know about a “strong man.” I would say a guy like Putin coming to power was just a result of the material circumstance of the country and what was occurring in the 1990s. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 14:59 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 14:55
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