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Cleretic posted:Garlemald is a broken nation with broken worldviews. Rebuilding Garlemald isn't just a matter of giving them back a bunch of houses to live in; it's getting them to not view everyone that isn't them as an impending menace. The fastest fix to that mindset would likely be Nerva returning. As he’s the last living Solus descendent and that’s kind of the sort of thing these people care about even though the first were fighting the third because they believed Varis to have been assassinated as a plot by Nerva. But Nerva is somehow sir not appearing in this expansion so far. Surely at least one Galvus family member isn’t a complete lunatic.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:02
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Also, the most intact of their armies basically sued for peace so they're probably not popular with the Quintus fans.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:07
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Yeah, I think that as it is, Quintus will become a 'legend' but to the Garleans who feel like 'they totally could have turned this around if not for perfidious traitors turned against the noble Garlean Empire' But yeah, Nerva might be a good shout. Perhaps combined in a way with re-establishing the Republic. And yeah, Garlemald is going to be interesting. Especially with Corvus being a 'location of interest'. Because as I understand it, Corcus, which is absolutely A+ kind of land, is where the Garleans originated, before they were driven to the lovely north.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:12
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ImpAtom posted:If I came across that way then I apologize. It can be difficult to keep track of people sometimes so if I pointed to something someone else said and attributed it to you I'm sorry. It's okay; I apologize if I was too harsh on you, too. I sometimes get a little too worked up trying to make my point come across well, and end up sounding severe. As for the rest, though, there's probably no point in me reiterating the various reasons why the narrative failed to sell me on the idea that Hydaelyn meaningfully acted more for the preservation of life than the Ascians. The Sundering didn't just hurt the Ancients, but everyone and everything on the planet. And it's repeated attempts to sell me on this being okay backfired and reminded me of some really ugly stuff from the real world. If anything, I think I ended up seeing more of Hydaelyn in Garlemald than the Ascians. She fought for the disempowered through an act of spectacular, wold-changing violence that flipped the staus quo on its head, turning the previously powerful groups into victims. That's obviously not the intended reading, but my point is that it only takes a few acts of narrative carelessness to radically distort how a story comes across to people with certain hangups. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:14
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PoorWeather posted:It's okay; I apologize if I was too harsh on you, too. I sometimes get a little too worked up trying to make my point feel clear to me, and end up coming across as really severe. All good. At the end of the day it's a video game and ain't no point in making someone feel bad about it. I don't want to tell you your feeling is wrong and I understand the point you're trying to make.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:16
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Lord_Magmar posted:This reads to me like he’s warning you not to change the fate of the Ancients because if you do you will not return to the world you want to save. See I think it's even simpler: Elidibus is telling you that fixing the past won't change the present. Even if you can return to your timeline, your timeline will be utterly unaffected by any changes you make to past!Elpis to change the course of history, because you already came from a timeline where things turned out badly. So changing the past is no solution to the Final Days. Your Final Days are already happening for you, and there's no retroactive shift changes possible. There's no solution to your world found in changing the past. That does not, necessarily, entail either a time loop or that it would be impossible to change the past, it just wouldn't help you at all. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:22
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I don't think the actual writers were intending Quintus to come across as sympathetic, given the whole 'kidnapping the twins' thing, but I agree that it's entirely understandable random Garleans would. I honestly wouldn't object to an entire expansion (or at least patch cycle) of helping the Garleans not be racist and figure out a political system that works for them absent Ascian manipulation, because I find their current situation fascinating, but I'm aware I'm probably in the minority on that.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:28
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Yeah. One of the things that made me yell at the screen is that you have some Garleans go 'But why all this war? Why not have happy unification and live in harmony' And I go 'If you want happy unification, how about consistently accepting non-Pureblood Garleans in positions of power instead of being racist shitheads. You didn't unify poo poo. You very much kept the division alive. Except it was a division between masters and slaves. That ain't unification. That's just 'war with only one side allowed to carry weapons' Which of course, is the point. But man....
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Dec 14, 2021 08:30
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Eh, I think a lot of people are interested in some form of Garlean Restoration, whether it's just story stuff or a full on thing like Doman Restoration, myself included. I wouldn't be surprised if it segues into the next expac plot hook.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:31
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My opinion on Quintus is that his third eye is basically on his hairline and that must have been absolutely unbearable.
PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:41
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PoorWeather posted:My opinion on Quintus is that his third eye basically on his hairline and that must have been absolutely unbearable. Oh god yeah. Imagine getting motion sick all the time because your bangs keep getting in the way
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Dec 14, 2021 09:03
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thetoughestbean posted:Oh god yeah. Imagine getting motion sick all the time because your bangs keep getting in the way As far as I remember the Garlean third eye is for spatial awareness not necessarily pure vision. It’s why they’re good with guns and swords.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:08
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afaik they don't actually see out of it.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:16
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As far as the time travel for Elpis goes they're pretty explicit that changing things in the past too much will create a new timeline and strand you there, but because of what happened at the end the timelines ended up similar enough they joined together. Venat was going to make those choices regardless and once she became Hydaelyn and got basically the super echo she would have found out everything that happened anyway and started preparing for the true final days the way she did. When you meet her before the trial she realizes this is the conjunction point and the two timelines officially become just the one. There is a time loop but it's ultimately meaningless up until the conjunction point because everything happened the way it was going to happen.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:23
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Veev posted:As far as the time travel for Elpis goes they're pretty explicit that changing things in the past too much will create a new timeline and strand you there, but because of what happened at the end the timelines ended up similar enough they joined together. Venat was going to make those choices regardless and once she became Hydaelyn and got basically the super echo she would have found out everything that happened anyway and started preparing for the true final days the way she did. When you meet her before the trial she realizes this is the conjunction point and the two timelines officially become just the one. I actually didn't get the impression that there was the risk of stranding you there - rewatching the initial scene, Venat explicitly states that she believes you can be open with her because changes to the timeline won't hurt you. Venat posted:What is it? Are you unable to speak on the matter? So while it does end up being a loop in at least our iteration, and granted, Venat doesn't have much more than logic to work through it, but she seems to believe she could change events at that point in time.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:35
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Honestly it was super weird everyone was just so confident about that and cool with it, including your character. It's not like they're even experts at time magic like that or anything, the magic that G'raha used to do what he did isn't even supposed to exist in our timeline. Even Emet Selch thousands of years in the future was stumped how G'raha was sending full bodied people across time and space. Unless I'm misremembering and Elidibus isn't using the Crystal Tower magic there.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:42
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I am pretty sure when Alphi talks about Quintus's words it's when he was talking about Nations won't help each other unless they have something to gain in the end. And Alphi is of the opinion that he will eventually be right, so he should help out in Garlemald so that political stuff does not start messing up the stated goal of helping it's people there.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:44
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Man, now I'm thinking about a hypothetical WoL who manages to act enough to prevent the Final Days from being quite as destructive, and thus gets stuck in the past. Very much acknowledged a hero, with Emet, Venat and heck, even their former incarnation very much trying to make them feel better. But much like Emet, they are someone out of their own time, having lost everyone they held dear. And worse, because they did it themselves. But of course, they had to right? "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom─it is indolence."
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Dec 14, 2021 10:28
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There’s still Labyrinthos to go, who knows what that weird timeline messing might cause.
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Dec 14, 2021 11:09
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I mean, it's also entirely possible that the Ancients were fundamentally incapable of solving the Final Days - both from a social/emotional point of view but also because they're etherically chunky lads and lasses.
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Dec 14, 2021 11:18
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Itzena posted:I mean, it's also entirely possible that the Ancients were fundamentally incapable of solving the Final Days - both from a social/emotional point of view but also because they're etherically chunky lads and lasses. I think this is ultimately true. Not only were they too aetherically beefy to actually interact with dynamis (or even to be aware of it as a concept), but as a people they were very internally focused and unable to really conceive of a world outside of theirs, and phenomenally bad at conceiving of the notion that they might be wrong. It's hard to think of a society that would be worse at solving it.
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Dec 14, 2021 11:31
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Itzena posted:I mean, it's also entirely possible that the Ancients were fundamentally incapable of solving the Final Days - both from a social/emotional point of view but also because they're etherically chunky lads and lasses. I think that they’d have had a chance. They’re mondo powerful and Zodiark literally rewrites reality laws. If they could get him to Ultima Thule it’s highly possible he could shut down the Song of the End just by overwhelming the Dynamis. The obviously have some concept of Dynamis and ability to create constructs capable of interacting with it. The Elpis Flowers, Meteion. They seem pretty capable of coming up with a solution, but perhaps not societally likely to do so without a lot of help.
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Dec 14, 2021 11:36
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This is a meaningless lore-errata complaint, but I find the "too much Aether" justification silly because we, the player character, are 9/14ths of the way to being rejoined. In the mechanics of the setting, we are much closer to an Ancient than a sundered person, but this is never brought up at all even though it should massively diminish our ability to wield Dynamis compared to Hydaelyn's "plan".
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Dec 14, 2021 11:42
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It's just kind of messy in general how the ancients shortcomings are a mix of moral and ideological blindspots created by their own tremendous powers and idyllic society and also not having the right type of plot energy they need to combat the enemy plot energy
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Dec 14, 2021 11:49
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I might just be pulling this out of my rear end but I feel like the Ancients, even with their inability to manipulate dynamis, could have worked out a way to overcome Meteion sapping the planet if they weren't so fixated on using Zodiark to try and go back to their pre-Final Days society. They chose despair instead, which is why Venat resorted to the Sundering. Basically "you're sundered so you can more easily manipulate dynamis" was our plan because it suited us, but if it didn't suit us there probably was another way. Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 11:54
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Wow its almost like the ancients were in the exact same kind of world ending scenario as every other dead civilization we learn about in EW, where they became entirely fixated on an unattainable goal that would have resulted in them destroying themselves. Weird
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Dec 14, 2021 11:59
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Chillgamesh posted:I might just be pulling this out of my rear end but I feel like the Ancients, even with their inability to manipulate dynamis, could have worked out a way to overcome Meteion sapping the planet if they weren't so fixated on using Zodiark to try and go back to their pre-Final Days society. They chose despair instead, which is why Venat resorted to the Sundering. As has been brought up a lot, it's weird because Venat didn't even give them the option by telling them about Meteion. Like, the justification she gives is that telling the convocation could result Hermes betraying them again, but by the time the Final Days have happened and she's considering doing basically the most extreme thing imaginable, surely it couldn't possibly make things any worse? It's one of the elements where the stitching from all the rewrites they probably did over the course of development feels most visible. The conclusion to Elpis really feels like they're writing by the seat of their pants, trying to make this complicated post-hoc justification for why things happened the way they did work. And it sort of does, but only if you don't squint.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:03
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homeless snail posted:Wow its almost like the ancients were in the exact same kind of world ending scenario as every other dead civilization we learn about in EW, where they became entirely fixated on an unattainable goal that would have resulted in them destroying themselves. Weird yeah thats what I'm trying to say. it doesn't come across as inconsistent or a dumb plot contrivance that they died out because they couldn't manipulate space emotions, they died out because they gave up
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Dec 14, 2021 12:03
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I just don't see how the sundering is even remotely comparable to what the ancients were going to do. To me it seems far FAR the lesser of two bad options.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:04
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I mean, it’s a stated fact that Aether overwhelms Dynamis, and Zodiark is able to protect the planet from The Endsinger even sundered into 14 parts. He should likely be able to utterly wreck Ultima Thule if he goes there at full power, the problem then becomes his protection of the planet is gone whilst he’s off to punch the despair elemental in the face.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean, it’s a stated fact that Aether overwhelms Dynamis, and Zodiark is able to protect the planet from The Endsinger even sundered into 14 parts. He should likely be able to utterly wreck Ultima Thule if he goes there at full power, the problem then becomes his protection of the planet is gone whilst he’s off to punch the despair elemental in the face. Easy solution: Just sacrifice more to create another Zodiark to stay at home. It can't fail!
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Dec 14, 2021 12:15
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PoorWeather posted:As has been brought up a lot, it's weird because Venat didn't even give them the option by telling them about Meteion. Like, the justification she gives is that telling the convocation could result Hermes betraying them again, but by the time the Final Days have happened and she's considering doing basically the most extreme thing imaginable, surely it couldn't possibly make things any worse? There's an outright stated reason she didn't go super public with it, and it's mainly that the problem is so loving insane that most of the world aren't going to buy it, especially in this society. And... you know what? Yeah. "Heads up, the newly-appointed member of our highly trusted government sent out a fleet of sentient space probes that went insane from existential dread and are trying to kill us with an energy that is entirely theoretical to our society. Don't ask him to verify it, because he and all other witnesses to this besides me had their memory wiped by a secret, highly morally dubious tool that he invented to circumvent a concern that no other member of our society has, and if he learns the truth, he might go crazy and decide to help his space probes." And if the conversation is taking place after the Final Days? "Okay we have a plan to circumvent this, but it involves not going through with the still highly trusted government's plan to solve all the world's problems, which has enough public support that half to three-quarters of the world have already sacrificed their lives in support of it. We asked them and they aren't even pretending to listen." You're not gonna get a lot of widespread pickup on that idea, any plan basically has to rely on being something only a small, personally-recruited portion of the population can do. She has to rely on her own personally-collated goodwill.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:21
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Cleretic posted:There's an outright stated reason she didn't go super public with it Where? I mean, you can headcanon that based on what we're told about Amaurotine society and a few assumptions, but I'm pretty sure that isn't said directly. Correct me if I'm wrong. And even if she didn't tell them about the specifics, she could very easily have said something like "the problem is coming from Dynamis" which may well have changed their approach to some extent, considering it was an understood if obscure scientific concept in their society. You can make excuses and headcanons for it or any of the narrative jank surrounding the time loop, and the writers broader attempts to create a scenario where Venat just had to do the Sundering despite knowing everything that was going to happen in advance. But IMO, the story creaks and moans under the weight of the contrivance. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 12:30
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If, after the WoL returned from Elpis, Venat had warned the Convocation about Meteion and Dynamis and helped them defeat her we can surmise that there would be two timelines, one where Amaurot lives and one where the Warrior of Light is unable to defeat Meteion because nobody on Etheirys can find her. The WoL, and thus the player, would not get to enjoy the Amaurot timeline. There would be a split. Meanwhile, if the WoL had also decided to stay, they would be consigning everybody they know and love in their timeline to a horrifying death in order to save Amaurot, which is not the story we got. Instead of any of these scenarios, a convergence occurred, stabilizing into a time loop where the Warrior of Light can save not just this world, but countless others out there under the influence of the song of oblivion. Venat deliberately chose to believe in the hero from the future she met at Elpis, and chose not to abandon them to save her own civilization. Nothing of what happens is inconsistent with what we know of Venat. It's already been established that she cares deeply about the right for created and sundered life to exist. Even if it means defying the other Ancients to assert it. And it's that if there's anybody she believes in, it's you, the Warrior of Light. Hers is a tale of loss, and fire, and faith.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:32
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PoorWeather posted:Where? I mean, you can headcanon that based on what we're told about Amaurotine society and a few assumptions, but I don't remember it ever being said explicitly. She said it in the scene after Ktitsis, after you escape on Argos and Also Argos. She outright talks about how she's going to recruit people to help with this (the group we see the recording of after Anamnesis Anyder in 5.2), but admits it's going to be really hard and she's gonna have to rely on recruiting only the people she knows will help.
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Dec 14, 2021 12:34
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Why didn’t Venat just summon the eagles to kill Meteion with the One Ring
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Dec 14, 2021 12:37
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Xarbala posted:Hers is a tale of loss, and fire, and faith. It's a tale of a script that probably had to be completely rewritten to capitalize on Emet and the Ascians becoming massively beloved among the Japanese playerbase after ShB in a way that Yoshi-P admitted in interviews took the writing team completely by surprise, and because of parts of the expac having to be scaled back or changed radically in the wake of the pandemic. I get what they were trying to do with the time loop and everything else, but it is pretty awkwardly plotted in numerous directions. Cleretic posted:She said it in the scene after Ktitsis, after you escape on Argos and Also Argos. She outright talks about how she's going to recruit people to help with this (the group we see the recording of after Anamnesis Anyder in 5.2), but admits it's going to be really hard and she's gonna have to rely on recruiting only the people she knows will help. I went back and checked the scene in the Unending Journey. She mentions that she can't talk about it because it might scare people and that it might alert Hermes, but it's never even suggested that people wouldn't believe her. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 12:45
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Yeah, and Emet very much calls out that lying is pretty much impossible in a world with the Echo. So I don't think 'they wouldn't believe her' is the issue. More a 'The only way we know the Final Days are survived is if Hermes does his level best to assist, if Hermes gets removed, it's entirely possible they won't live long enough to summon Zodiark.'
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Dec 14, 2021 13:00
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PoorWeather posted:It's a tale of a script that probably had to be completely rewritten to capitalize on Emet and the Ascians becoming massively beloved among the Japanese playerbase after ShB in a way that Yoshi-P admitted in interviews took the writing team completely by surprise, and because of parts of the expac having to be scaled back or changed radically in the wake of the pandemic. Hey now be fair, They're massively beloved by the global playerbase.
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Dec 14, 2021 13:30
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I admit I hope that Pandaemonium is the last we see of the Ancients. I’m kind of tired of them!
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Dec 14, 2021 13:32
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