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thetoughestbean posted:I admit I hope that Pandaemonium is the last we see of the Ancients. I’m kind of tired of them! I would temper your expectations, lmao. Yoshi-P has openly said that his first priority with the writing is making the fans happy, and a lot of people seem to be going absolutely bananas for the Elpis segment and all its characters. And considering how happy they were to begin pivoting on the very well-written, very-final conclusion to Emet's arc in basegame ShB within two patches...
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Dec 14, 2021 13:46
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Shogeton posted:Yeah, and Emet very much calls out that lying is pretty much impossible in a world with the Echo. So I don't think 'they wouldn't believe her' is the issue. More a 'The only way we know the Final Days are survived is if Hermes does his level best to assist, if Hermes gets removed, it's entirely possible they won't live long enough to summon Zodiark.' Yeah, perhaps the believability isn't as big an issue as I thought. But I do think it isn't entirely off the table; after all, Kairos is involved, and isn't a known element outside of Elpis. Suddenly, you've got Venat outright disagreeing with two of the Convocation members about an event that all three of them were there for. Not only is that a generally new concept, but verifying it by the Echo is actually gonna be a bit of a task; Echo-ing Venat's aether trail would say she's right, but Emet-Selch's and Fandaniel's would probably disagree (if Kairos disrupts them like that, which I assume it would have to since the Echo is so widespread), and proving any of them right would require access to the Kairos control platform itself. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it is a problem that it sounds like Amaurot's never had before, and it's sure not a welcome extra layer on all this.
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Dec 14, 2021 13:52
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Yeah I loved Elpis, I love Emet-Selch, and I loved the dynamic between him and Hydtho, the dungeon in that zone is if not my favorite, top 2 or 3 of this expansion so far, and I just generally like the Ascians. That being said, I would like them to retire from the villain role. This Pandemonium dungeon I'm fine with since it'll be a side thing, but I do hope we're done with the Ascians being primary antagonists/major players. The game sent them off in a really good fashion and I don't really want them to be part of the main story anymore just to please fans
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Dec 14, 2021 13:54
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Macaluso posted:Yeah I loved Elpis, I love Emet-Selch, and I loved the dynamic between him and Hydtho, the dungeon in that zone is if not my favorite, top 2 or 3 of this expansion so far, and I just generally like the Ascians. I doubt the Ascians will continue on as major players or especially villains, but I would be extremely unsurprised if Emet, Hythlo, and even Venat returned to reprise their role as party members. Which is an idea I have mixed feelings about, but between them leaving the door wide open with their final scene and the fan response, it feels like a foregone conclusion that it'll happen eventually. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Unsundered World ended up being a setting for more content in some form or another, though I doubt it would be anything major. At least not until the game reaches its "we're starting to decline, do something the fans will go crazy for quick!" terminal stage.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:06
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PoorWeather posted:I doubt the Ascians will continue on as major players or especially villains, but I would be extremely unsurprised if Emet, Hythlo, and even Venat returned to reprise their role as party members. Which is an idea I have mixed feelings about, but between them leaving the door wide open with their final scene and the fan response, it feels like a foregone conclusion that it'll happen eventually. I think Hythlodaeus and Hades got a fun encore performance but I think they won’t return At least I hope so. I would like death to hold some meaning moving forward
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Dec 14, 2021 14:09
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I need a Zenos EX fight like, immediately, please and thank you.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:09
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Terper posted:I need a Zenos EX fight like, immediately, please and thank you. I can't believe you're going to indulge Zenos' fan requests like this
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Dec 14, 2021 14:11
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I didn’t think Zenos even had fans!
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Dec 14, 2021 14:12
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thetoughestbean posted:I think Hythlodaeus and Hades got a fun encore performance but I think they won’t return The final shot of you and the Scions walking past them going the other way is very curtain call and I highly doubt that they're going to come back in any significant capacity. The one mystery that I really want to know is the Watcher's real name. If it's not FuSoYa I'm eating 3 hats.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:13
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thetoughestbean posted:I didn’t think Zenos even had fans! Zenos rules
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Dec 14, 2021 14:15
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Zenos's story in Endwalker was great. His quest to understand that the best way to make us fight him was not to become a world-ending threat, but to instead help end it so we had nothing better to do was heartwarming. 10/10, would punch again.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:15
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There's no way the Ascians will ever be villains again. There's just no point. If the remaining sundered convocation members ever resurface I expect it to be more like figuring out what to do with themselves now. I think that could be a worthwhile storyline and they might even be able to help pursue paths to traveling between the shards. The dead are gonna stay dead, their send off was very final. But yeah we may see more of them in trips to the past I suppose.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:16
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thetoughestbean posted:I didn’t think Zenos even had fans! I can see now that my wording could be read multiple ways
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Dec 14, 2021 14:18
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Zenos should get an Ultimate raid, containing all forms of Zenos. I think that properly corners the market of Zenos fans. And yeah, I think the Ascians are, outside of Pandaemonium, just done. Which is a shame, I wanted to see one turn up in a crafting storyline. Or maybe Hildibrand, and we'd continue the trend of 'Hildibrand delves deeper into the political environment of a part of the world than the main story was ever inclined to'.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:22
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Venat became
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Dec 14, 2021 14:22
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Cleretic posted:Zenos should get an Ultimate raid, containing all forms of Zenos. I think that properly corners the market of Zenos fans. Considering we will almost certainly will be getting Shinryu ultimate I would not be surprised if we get a bunch of Zenos based gimmicks. Also I want the Hythlodaeus Emet and Venat as permanent trust options. It’s not like the avatar mode is a lore thing anyway.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:29
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I've always taken "the Japanese playerbase feels/does x, thus game does y" statements with a grain of salt, because for every instance where it's true there's another instance like the first iteration of Eureka where the JP playerbase thought this awful content was because NA players were crazy, and vice versa. The language barrier is not as insurmountable as it once was and while there are definite differences between large chunks of the overall FFXIV population, being Wild About Ascians is a pretty widespread sentiment in the fanbase. FFXIV can get wildly indulgent, but honestly since everything it's indulging in is something I like, I currently see no reason to complain. I'm very fortunate! I'm also reasonably confident that now that they've written such a sloppy love letter to the Ancients that they're going to ease up on that subject and go find something else to be gratuitously crowd-pandering about.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:42
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At this point, after 5.0 and 5.3, saying "oh, this was a great send-off point for Emet and the Ancients, surely they won't undo that and have them appear again" is like Lucy and the football. Those characters are a gold mine for them and SE knows it, for better or worse.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:08
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FeatherFloat posted:I've always taken "the Japanese playerbase feels/does x, thus game does y" statements with a grain of salt, because for every instance where it's true there's another instance like the first iteration of Eureka where the JP playerbase thought this awful content was because NA players were crazy, and vice versa. The language barrier is not as insurmountable as it once was and while there are definite differences between large chunks of the overall FFXIV population, being Wild About Ascians is a pretty widespread sentiment in the fanbase. That's fair. To be honest, I think the only reason I said it was because there have been a couple times I've talked about the fanbase's feelings influencing the direction of the game, only for somebody to say "I don't think SE cares about the western fanbase", so I just want to skip that potential stage of the conversation even though the idea itself is probably meaningless. Lord_Magmar posted:Also I want the Hythlodaeus Emet and Venat as permanent trust options. It’s not like the avatar mode is a lore thing anyway. An issue with this idea is that they're apparently broken compared to normal trust NPCs. All three of them have full heal resurrection spells no matter what class they are, and they do notably more damage than the Scions. They don't even need you there. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 15:20
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PoorWeather posted:That's fair. To be honest, I think the only reason I said it was because there have been a couple times I've talked about the fanbase's feelings influencing the direction of the game, only for somebody to say "I don't think SE cares about the western fanbase", so I just want to skip that potential stage of the conversation even though the idea itself is probably meaningless. Man, the people saying that are so incredibly wrong. Yoshi-P even asked western streamers to turn on Japanese subtitles, even if they were auto translated, so the devs could better understand what they were saying!
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Dec 14, 2021 15:25
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Hell, I've heard the theory that the big primal scene was actually an attempt to appeal to both the English and Japanese audience at once; apparently the Japanese VA for Garuda is quite popular over there, so her talking to Susano, the English-speaking fan-favorite primal, was probably a way to make both communities happy. Apparently Rhytatyn is also more of a western fanbase thing, so him turning up in the Aitiascope was probably for us, too. And now I'm wondering what parts of Endwalker were made to get the big cheers from the Japanese audience that were lost on us; did Asahi get a big moment because he's a meme over there that we've never heard?
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Dec 14, 2021 15:49
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Raelle posted:At this point, after 5.0 and 5.3, saying "oh, this was a great send-off point for Emet and the Ancients, surely they won't undo that and have them appear again" is like Lucy and the football. Those characters are a gold mine for them and SE knows it, for better or worse. Give me a World Unsundered game/patch/expansion, whatever I don't care. I care way more about the ancients than the 'current' cast so I know, as horrible of a choice as it would be, I'd save Amaurot over the current world if I had a choice.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:07
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They're good characters, but that would be a bad move. It would be focusing on the past when the game should by all rights be looking to the future. At best they'd be digging back into an old bag of tricks to diminishing returns.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:11
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I think it would be a really bad idea to bring back the ancient crew for more than Pandaemonium after having them literally (metaphorically) exit stage right.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:30
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I feel like my nitpicks are always very different from the popular ones... sorry to just drop in to give hot takes without catching up on a ton of thread, but I finally finished the game and I freakin' loved it. My most nitpicky of nitpicks is that I find G'raha to be a kind of empty Mary Sue type character. Sure, he's nice to hang out with, he's friendly, and he's always there to bust out some "omg who knew he was so powerful!" scene outta nowhere, and also almost all of his character development basically happened offscreen before 5.0. I don't hate him, but I feel like he never really went anywhere besides "nice friend guy," especially contrasted with every other Scion. My actual main beef is just, everything to do with the functioning of the Sharlayan Forum as a government and how we interact with it as the WoL. The whole expansion felt like it leaned on interpersonal relationships very hard, kind of intentionally and explicitly, and that's fine! So, for instance, all these bad vibes with Sharlayan basically get resolved by Alphi and Alisaie having very important talks with their mom and dad. Honestly, I thought a lot of that actually worked perfectly well in terms of how it related to Alphi and Alisaie's character development, and it resulted in some powerful moments! But as the main character I felt like a ton of the actual plot time was taken up by having to entertain a bunch of uptight old idiots for No Clear Reason. Like, the "Fourchenault disowns his kids and the Forum is acting shady as gently caress" teaser at the end of 5.5 was resolved solely in terms of him hiding something from his children. But in terms of plot pacing it felt to me like pure time wasting and misdirection. We basically end up agreeing to every demand of Sharlayan while the world is ending around us, for no other obvious reason than to maintain decorum or, not embarrass our friends or something. This all gets the weirdest when we're running around chatting to people in Labyrinthos while the Final Days is literally happening Right At This Exact Moment, but I honestly chalk that up to something getting messed around with late in the plot development cycle. It just seemed absolutely insane to me to be doing the normal "WoL wanders around helping people have a better day" thing when as far as all the main characters know we could literally be hours away from the end of all life on the planet. I'm fine with the idea that we needed to not panic, but it felt like there was really something off about the tone of that entire sequence. Overall though everything ended on such a strong note that I don't really feel negative about any of it overall. Really a joyful experience. e: and in terms of feelings about abuse, my issues with Sharlayan led me to particularly be pretty annoyed by Fourchenault. I don't mind Alphi and Alisaie forgiving him, but I just... was frustrated by his relevance at all I guess. His only purpose was to realize he's a huge dumb moron and has been for a long time, AND Alphi and Alisaie have done so well for themselves that his awful relationship to them didn't actually gently caress them up that bad..... but it's all kind of treated as a nice thing. I dunno I was just kind of telling him to go gently caress himself by the end. Martman fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 16:31
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I think by that point they made it fairly clear that the End of Days isn't a singular apocalyptic moment but a process. As for running around Labyrinthos for what I think is an in game day, the point of that story beat is to reinforce the idea that everyone needs to lean on other people sometimes. Directly involving the player in their process of preparing for the evacuation helps to reinforce that the Sharlayan's mistake isn't that they're preparing to evacuate, it's that they stubbornly refused to seek help. They spend a lot of the game apparently stuck solving what seems like an impossible problem, then the moment they reach out their problem gets turbo-solved. edit: Also what else are we going to do? The ship's not ready and there's no other way to get to Ultima Thule. Another moment with the Loporrits helps reinforce the reasons why we're fighting (choosing to live) ahead of our journey to nihilism land. Urianger and Alphinaud even have a short conversation about remembering to appreciate the little wonders and beauty of nature when discussing the process of making rain before we show it off to the Loporrits. I think that's also when Thancred gives his "It's too soon for this to end" comment? They could have done some stuff to make finding the 8 researchers more convenient, but it's not padding but more leaning into the game's thesis. As for why we bother humoring the Forum, well they seem to know something that could help but we're not about to go to war over it. We have neither the time nor the inclination, so the only option is to play politics with the city state. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 16:44
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Yeah I do wish they went harder into why Sharlayan’s non-interventionism was bad and a serious moral failing. They did have a cutscene where Alisaie compares her dad and Quintus because they were both stubborn men with bad ideas about the inevitability of conflict, and Alphinaud is able to show Faurchenalt the power of actually giving a drat about the rest of the world when he calls for assistance in what I have seen being referred to as “the game master Anthony cutscene”, but being a bit more explicit would have been nice
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Dec 14, 2021 16:52
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Spinoff Elpis dating sim.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:55
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I have two issues there: -at that point it didn't feel like we had enough information about the Final Days to have any reason to think we were safe from it anywhere, for any amount of time wasting; if anything we had just learned that it's even more unpredictable than we thought -once it all plays out and we (of course) find a way to use the Sharlayan's project to actually solve the problem, it's great, but until then it felt like the WoL was kinda sitting back, smiling and nodding when I'm yelling at the screen "no this is dumb, we have to stop the Final Days not just follow their dumb idiot plan." I would be fine with the idea that we were just humoring them, but it felt like there was not nearly as much acknowledgement of that in the moment as I expected. That's really specifically with that one segment though, and I view it as a specific execution thing rather than a serious structural problem. I do fundamentally feel teased by the "uh oh, is Sharlayan doing something evil???" setup though. Why don't we have the inclination to press them harder early on? We've dealt with many stubborn political institutions, but Sharlayan only seemed to be beyond challenge because of the Scions' direct personal relationships. I guess it just felt that that aspect of the plot put the WoL in an especially passive audience position while simultaneously the stakes and pressure are rising higher than they've ever been. Martman fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 16:57
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thetoughestbean posted:Yeah I do wish they went harder into why Sharlayan’s non-interventionism was bad and a serious moral failing. They did have a cutscene where Alisaie compares her dad and Quintus because they were both stubborn men with bad ideas about the inevitability of conflict, and Alphinaud is able to show Faurchenalt the power of actually giving a drat about the rest of the world when he calls for assistance in what I have seen being referred to as “the game master Anthony cutscene”, but being a bit more explicit would have been nice It would've been nice to have something to point to as an 'if you didn't give the order to gently caress off back home, this horrible thing wouldn't have happened'. Hard to say what, but I dunno, maybe the Imperial division that killed the Ala Mhigan Duskwight tribes did that because their expedition to scout the Sharlayan colony was called off? Honestly, Sharlayan are so non-interventionist that it's actually hard to figure out where they could've made a difference.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:00
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We did know that about the Final Days though. We knew anyone anywhere could turn, but that the skies turning red signifying that things were kicking into high gear wasn't immediate. It would start first in places where the celestial aether was thinnest, then spread. Exactly how it played out for the Amaurotines as we learned in Shadowbringers. As for the second, again the issue is what are you going to do? The ship isn't ready until we head down through the Aitascope, and even then we don't yet know where we're going nor have the fuel necessary to reach there. You can do your role quests to help specific regions deal with their comparatively small blasphemy problems but actually solving the Final Days requires waiting on Ragnarok's completion and us getting access to the Aitascope. I don't think the Sharlayans even tell us about the Aitascope until right before we use it. edit: Also the Sharlayans are the ones that know how to make the Aitascope work safely. We don't. Even if we could have fought through them to the Aitascope what then? Also we don't press them further because they explicitly say any more pressing will lead to all of us being exiled, meaning there would be no more chance at having our questions answered or getting any of them to cooperate. We don't have power over the Forum in that situation, they have power over us. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 17:02
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thetoughestbean posted:Man, the people saying that are so incredibly wrong. Yoshi-P even asked western streamers to turn on Japanese subtitles, even if they were auto translated, so the devs could better understand what they were saying! Yeah! It's not so much that the devs don't care about the western player base, it's that they don't have an easy way to know what they experience, what they find meme-worthy, or what they have problems with. I've heard anecdotes about Yoshi-P going to NA fanfests and events, speaking with fans and finding out about Titan latency issues and gil spam, and him being alarmed and immediately taking steps to do something. The will generally seems to be there when the decision-makers find out that something is worth doing, it's just a matter of making it known to them.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:03
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I think I'm saying even accepting stuff like their terms of "being exiled" is a bit much at that point. We're talking about a government that has done Nothing Useful while catastrophes have threatened the world for years, and also they haven't demonstrated any actual power or ability to challenge us. They literally don't even have a military. I'm not saying we should take them over, I'm saying the WoL should be more confrontational and not just kinda...... smiling and goin "oh well I hope they end up doing something useful" while watching terrible decisions be made by a bunch of irrelevant morons. e: honestly I could imagine a version of the story playing out where the WoL has a LOT more frustration with what's going on, especially with how two of the zones are set up to explicitly let us go handle all the important stuff without any of the dumb politics around to get in our way. It just felt like my own character was..... kinda not there sometimes, until it was time to do the stuff that matters. Martman fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 17:06
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I feel like killing Zodiark, Fandaniel, Hydaelyn, and also Meteion was presented in-game as a way of removing the ancients from the story in their roles as ascians/primals/apocalyptic meme bird, or put more bluntly, removed as actual hands in the game's present. The ancients made a huge mess in their (metaphorically and wrt dynamis) blindness, both in causing Meteion and the sundering, the WoL and Scions have since cleaned that mess up and in the process we got reminded repeatedly that in addition to there being no rewind button, even wishing for one got half the unsundered world killed and almost got half the unsundered survivors killed. That's not even counting the rejoinings and all the other calculated atrocities committed by the ascians against the sundered reflections. They even drill it into your skull over and over with stuff like "you stand where you are by virtue of the road you traveled" that changing the past is impossible for all of the normal causality-paradox reasons. They're dead, their fight is over, most of them have made their peace with it or at least made enough peace with it to take their leave from throwing violent tantrums about it. The universe has moved on and so have they (mostly). Sloppy writing pulled a lot of the "why the endsinger is so bad" punches for me in the moment but it's not like I'm incapable of thinking about it and getting it, they just kinda rushed it and it didn't feel like they really gave that part sufficient time to sink in before sending you off to the next dungeon. They tried to slam so much of the reasoning for "why things are the way they are" into the elpis part of the story and someone getting up to take a piss after the Kairos part likely miss the part where Venat does the little thinking-out-loud exposition before sending you back, which probably makes it very very hard to agree with the story's textual support for why she sundered the world even if you haven't had all empathy for other living things beaten out of you by consequence (notwithstanding the fact that the story has long been aware those 14 convocation goobers called the shots for the whole planet). Missing Venat's explanation makes her later monologue as Hydaelyn come off like "you have to suffer for no reason lmao because I love you" despite the very obvious evidence pointing towards it being a desperate move made at the 11th hour because the convocation had aligned in the majority against her and nobody except maybe Hermes would have the slightest idea of what she's trying to warn them about, and that would invite sabotage. It's too short a scene and it's not elaborated on in motion, so it's understandable to ask why Venat couldn't have just hugged it out with the convocation and avoided Zodiark altogether. The game hammers on the moral lesson that in pursuing perfection, they (Garlemald, Ishgard, Amaurot, Eulmore, hell Sharlayan is probably gonna get hosed up soon if they dont loosen up) inevitably try to hide and ignore fundamental problems and in their ignorance and denial, those problems undermine every atom of effort they put in to keep the perfect dream alive. Crystarium though? Nope, that's a place that knows perfection will forever elude you and lead you to self-destruction because G'raha is a walking macguffin with plot-conferred absolution. Old world's dead, it ain't coming back, even sending you back as a ghost is something that took the crystal tower and Elidibus' sacrifice from within. Maybe we'll dig up Kairos in the bounty and find out it can turn time back as well, but that just sounds incredibly lovely to have to spend a third consecutive expansion with these same dead losers vamping around like a bad ex. That said there's no way in hell S-E won't bring the ancients back in for flashback content or as magic advice-dispensing ghosts. Too many people have strong feelings for Emet and Hythlodaeus to make "they're gone forever and we deleted their assets, now get over it" a thing - the reaction to EW for some makes it pretty clear that if they replaced Vauthry with Hythlodaeus and made it so only sylphs got the shaft folks would be mad as hell if the player followed the same story of removing him and overthrowing his system of control because it's just too pretty and nice to ever have fundamental problems that are just hidden behind the decor and free food distribution.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:09
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FeatherFloat posted:Yeah! It's not so much that the devs don't care about the western player base, it's that they don't have an easy way to know what they experience, what they find meme-worthy, or what they have problems with. I've heard anecdotes about Yoshi-P going to NA fanfests and events, speaking with fans and finding out about Titan latency issues and gil spam, and him being alarmed and immediately taking steps to do something. The will generally seems to be there when the decision-makers find out that something is worth doing, it's just a matter of making it known to them. Those are all examples that're well in the past, though. I suspect that, as the game has grown - especially overseas - they've started to pay much closer attention to Western community hubs and content creators to get an understanding of what cultural or technological differences might cause an issue with certain design elements.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:11
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Martman posted:I think I'm saying even accepting stuff like their terms of "being exiled" is a bit much at that point. We're talking about a government that has done Nothing Useful while catastrophes have threatened the world for years, and also they haven't demonstrated any actual power or ability to challenge us. They literally don't even have a military. I'm not saying we should take them over, I'm saying the WoL should be more confrontational and not just kinda...... smiling and goin "oh well I hope they end up doing something useful" while watching terrible decisions be made by a bunch of irrelevant morons. They might not have a military, but they are a bunch of turbo wizards. Astro quest line you have to deal with their assassins, including a dude who can (at least effectively) stop time. We are very strong but I guarantee you if mage city wanted to expel the scions from their island nation they could accomplish it even faster than the Crystal Braves did in Ul'dah. Pushing further without anything to offer them that they think is worth anything would have only made things worse. I mean if you want the WoL to just show more frustration that's fine, but the Forum are not a raid series to be conquered. They're a polity making a bad decision based on fear. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 17:13
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Their also basing their decision on Hydaelyn herself telling them to get on the moon and gently caress off with everyone.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:14
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TGLT posted:They might not have a military, but they are a bunch of turbo wizards. Astro quest line you have to deal with their assassins, including a dude who can (at least effectively) stop time. We are very strong but I guarantee you if mage city wanted to expel the scions from their island nation they could accomplish it even faster than the Crystal Braves did in Ul'dah. Pushing further without anything to offer them that they think is worth anything would have only made things worse.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:15
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Honestly even without that, Thancred learned all his spy poo poo from Sharlayan and one old dude from there knew the secret spell to stop Bahamut from obliterating Eorzea. Plus all the mages in our group got their start in magic learning from the Sharlayans. I think even without the Astro murder man they're established as capable of some mean magic even if they're not usually willing to deploy it.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:18
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I don't really see why we can't help out with sidequests right before the end of the world. We were waiting for the refined adamantite to be shipped in anyway and there isn't anything else we could do in the meantime. At the end of everything, you gotta help everyone.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:20
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