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VitalSigns posted:That just seems like changing times. Let's just compare the first country in there with the good old pro-gay capitalist USA My argument is that LGBT acceptance doesn't correlate with economic system. You can lump progressive Cuba legalizing same sex sexual activity in 1979 with the notable communist states of CT, CO, CA, DE, HI, IN, IO, ME, NE, NJ, NM, ND, OH, OR, SD, VT, WA, WV, WY which all repealed their laws against it in the 70s, most of the ones I looked up were before 79. Source: https://www.aclu.org/other/getting-rid-sodomy-laws-history-and-strategy-led-lawrence-decision I'm not arguing communist (or socialist) states are worse when it comes to LGBT rights, I'm arguing that being communist or socialist doesn't seem to make them better. A big flaming stink posted:Are you loving insane do you have any idea how loving huge free gender affirming surgery/hrt/etc would be for trans people? I would be beyond loving ecstatic if I could never worry about having to do a GoFundMe to overcome dysphoria You're misreading my posts. I'm saying that focusing purely on class struggle is not enough, and that changing an economic system is not enough to ensure that LGBT people are accepted or covered by things like free healthcare. I'm not sure where you're getting that I don't want universal free healthcare, or that I don't want it to cover trans healthcare. I do. I'm arguing that focusing purely on class struggle doesn't get us there. VVVVVVVV Yeah. Communism doesn't mean "All the good things happen now" is a more concise way of putting it. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 08:46
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What made you think that Communism means you get all the medical care you want whenever you want for free? Even countries with "Free healthcare" aren't equal. Free can mean you show need and are treated, or it can mean you have to see a bunch of specialists, over a period of months, and after all that the thing you want is deemed unnecessary. After which they allow you an inferior form of treatment than the one you wanted in the first place. Depends on where you are and how much they care. Communism doesn't mean "All the good things happen now". Realistically it doesn't actually mean much of anything in particular, just like "Capitalism" or "Democracy". You have to narrow down what flavor and the strictest of the interpretation and all that.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:47
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If we broke up would the big banks, would that solve racism? It'd sure as gently caress help, because the big banks are infamously racist institutions. Literally half of black wealth was stolen by them under Obama's approving gaze.
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Dec 14, 2021 08:57
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Mulva posted:What made you think that Communism means you get all the medical care you want whenever you want for free? Even countries with "Free healthcare" aren't equal. Free can mean you show need and are treated, or it can mean you have to see a bunch of specialists, over a period of months, and after all that the thing you want is deemed unnecessary. After which they allow you an inferior form of treatment than the one you wanted in the first place. Depends on where you are and how much they care. Is this motherfucker really doing the "Canada wait times!!!!" routine in tyool 2021 Commoditized healthcare is a loving gigantic problem for trans people among others and you really just asking what does abolishing capitalism have to do with helping trans people
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Dec 14, 2021 08:57
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I was trying to be respectful but I'm sorry "wait times might go up" is where I draw the line. Maybe it's because I'm not very well off but my experience has been wait a year to switch health insurance during open season because my current wouldn't cover hrt. Find out that almost no doctors are taking new patients that are down with trans people then just saying gently caress it and going to planned parenthood. This is in the state with I believe the best access to trans Healthcare of all 50 states. Cannot imagine doing this without insurance.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:11
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It has to be paired with a society that thinks that's of value, regardless of economic system, is my point. A lot of Communist countries were founded and ruled by people living in very specific historical and cultural contexts. Russia was a pretty socially conservative country in 1917 (and still is, of course), and even so, the Russian SFSR legalized homosexuality in 1922. Of course, Stalin recriminalized it, but Stalin was a culturally conservative shithead, huge surprise. The lesson is, no, Communism (or the path towards the teleological endpoint that is Communism, more accurately) is not a panacea to socially conservative attitudes in any country. The Russian Empire was still the Russian Empire in many ways after 1917. The US will also carry plenty of lovely cultural baggage if we ever replace capitalism with socialism or communism. The best we can do is make sure we elevate underrepresented voices, let them lead, and keep an eye out for lovely reactionaries who shouldn’t be in leadership positions. For actual serious Marxist activists and organizers on the ground, as opposed to dumbshit Taintrunner wannabes, social liberation for non-white, non-cishet, non-male people are non-negotiable conditions.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:14
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A big flaming stink posted:Is this motherfucker really doing the "Canada wait times!!!!" routine in tyool 2021 The Republican Party already weaponizes things like gender affirming surgery and hormone therapy to turn people against the idea of government controlled non-commodified health-care, and its working out great for them. That's exactly why "idpol," battles can't just be abandoned. If you don't fight those fights than leaving people behind is the only way progress becomes possible because too many Americans would rather have nothing than have something that someone they hate also gets.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:20
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Sanguinia posted:The Republican Party already weaponizes things like gender affirming surgery and hormone therapy to turn people against the idea of government controlled non-commodified health-care, and its working out great for them. That's exactly why "idpol," battles can't just be abandoned. If you don't fight those fights than leaving people behind is the only way progress becomes possible because too many Americans would rather have nothing than have something that someone they hate also gets. You keep trying to waive off the insane impact that healthcare costs have on the lives of non cis people. I am trying to tell you, over and over again, that the cost of health care and the incredibly lovely effects of commoditized healthcare are one of the single greatest threats to the well-being of non cis people. I'm not talking about class reductionism, I'm objecting to your willful blindness towards the fact that how healthcare is organized under capitalism murders tons of non cis people every loving day! I'm not afraid of my friends being curbstomped I'm afraid of them taking their own life because the very means towards validation of who they are is forever out of reach because that doesn't make number go up A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 09:24
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This is why we talk about things like material conditions that actually matter, because privilege genuinely blinds people to the idea of that it costs money to live under capitalism, especially if you have any kind of medical needs. The rich and the poor equally have the freedom to die in the gutter
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Dec 14, 2021 09:29
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Sanguinia posted:The Republican Party already weaponizes things like gender affirming surgery and hormone therapy to turn people against the idea of government controlled non-commodified health-care, and its working out great for them. That's exactly why "idpol," battles can't just be abandoned. If you don't fight those fights than leaving people behind is the only way progress becomes possible because too many Americans would rather have nothing than have something that someone they hate also gets. I have met zero people on board with universal Healthcare if the darn trans people don't get it and I work with mostly chuds. This is not a thing and if it was we're hosed if we have to rely on democrats to ensure trans rights. You might be leery of class before everything but democrats are very aware that the needs of the donor class comes first A big flaming stink posted:....I presume you mean the opposite? Ya snagged me before the edit Sedisp fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 09:49
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Sedisp posted:I have met zero people on board with universal Healthcare if the darn trans people get it and I work with mostly chuds. ....I presume you mean the opposite?
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Dec 14, 2021 09:51
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It happens every time, liberals smile and nod along with the idea of rights and progress for minorities right up until the moment when those people need something, other than gestures and symbols, and then you can practically see the sputtering, the disbelief, the obvious disgust. The eagerness to buy into right-wing propaganda when it suits their narrative, since that's exactly what it's supposed to do.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:54
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Sanguinia posted:The Republican Party already weaponizes things like gender affirming surgery and hormone therapy to turn people against the idea of government controlled non-commodified health-care, and its working out great for them. That's exactly why "idpol," battles can't just be abandoned. If you don't fight those fights than leaving people behind is the only way progress becomes possible because too many Americans would rather have nothing than have something that someone they hate also gets. Luckily, if a socialist revolution happens here, it won't rely on the support of white small business tyrants, no matter how often extremely online Nazbol types try to pretend like it will. If it succeeds, it will be because it has the support of the actual working class, which, again, is no longer majority white cishet male. It will succeed if it manages to motivate the ~40% of the population who currently aren't politically involved in any way because they're disillusioned with our system. A big flaming stink posted:I'm not afraid of my friends being curbstomped I'm afraid of them taking their own life because the very means towards validation of who they are is forever out of reach because that doesn't make number go up This is such an important point that I think a lot of well-meaning folks need to take to heart. Adolph Reed has said as much throughout his career as a political scientist: the most common forms of discrimination that vulnerable people face on a day-to-day basis aren't police shootings or beatings or lynchings, as grim and horrifying as those things are. Far more common are housing discrimination, hiring discrimination, income inequality, food deserts, lack of healthcare, etc. These are all issues that could at least be ameliorated somewhat by decommodifying the basic things that we need to survive.
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Dec 14, 2021 09:55
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so, uh, that aside: https://twitter.com/josheidelson/status/1470556484073242624 lets mother loving GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Dec 14, 2021 11:25
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A big flaming stink posted:so, uh, that aside: I was worried Starbucks was just going to cull a few stores but gently caress yeah if this starts to spread
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Dec 14, 2021 12:03
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Jaxyon posted:Plenty of posts in that thread answer that question specifically, but we do have several posters who show up regularly to claim that, no matter how many pages are spent talking to them. It's a derailment tactic. I didn't ask "What would replace the police, and how it would it deal with violent crime, drug gangs, and organized crime?" in the Police thread because it's the thread's central and defining question. A version of it is in the OP. Jaxyon posted:They didn't defund police. You have been misinformed. I appreciate the correction, both from you and the other person who posted an article about the terrible state Minneapolis is in. Jaxyon posted:Police regularly respond to mental health crises and use violence on the mentally unwell but I don't see you talking about that. I don't know what to say. I don't have all the answers. What are your suggestions for situations with the mentally unwell that are currently resulting a police response? The best suggestion I've seen so far was in that extra-long, two-part article someone recently posted, which suggested additional funding (separate and not taking from police budgets) for professionals trained in de-escalation or social work to accompany the police to certain types of calls. Jaxyon posted:Again, you don't know enough about this to come close to making that call. We have violent crimes on a downward trend for decades and then a sharp spike when a pandemic interrupted a lot of things. The call I made was to point out that there's no guarantee that the COVID pandemic will end anytime soon. Absolutely no one knows enough to say when it will end, or whether its repercussions are a statistical blip. We're two years into the pandemic, Omicron is accelerating across the UK and Denmark (I will be astonished if it doesn't eventually sweep the US, based on its fast spread in those nations), and too many cities in the US are setting murder records in 2021. I guess lockdowns have mostly ended in the US, for some time now, which makes the continued persistence of violent crime even more worrisome.
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Dec 14, 2021 13:31
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https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1470438857510465541 Looked a few pages back and didn't see this posted. Apologies if it's a repeat.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:25
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Victar posted:The best suggestion I've seen so far was in that extra-long, two-part article someone recently posted, which suggested additional funding (separate and not taking from police budgets) for professionals trained in de-escalation or social work to accompany the police to certain types of calls. “Give the cops a break” could be a weird back door to “defund the police.” Just say, “we’re making our cops do things they’re not trained in,” hire people who can do those things well, and keep the cops around with a reduced workload. Like, there would still be just as many, with the same funding, but they spend most of their time (including fully-funded overtime!) sitting around waiting for an active shooter, like fire fighters. Wasteful, but helps with the problem. It would be a kind of work program for youth with aggression issues. 
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Dec 14, 2021 14:27
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Victar posted:I didn't ask "What would replace the police, and how it would it deal with violent crime, drug gangs, and organized crime?" in the Police thread because it's the thread's central and defining question. A version of it is in the OP. Violent crime tracks real stressors, and a lot of the pandemic related stressors have yet to pass. Lots of stuff is still reduced or cancelled. People are frustrated, areas of concentrated poverty got hit hardest and always lag in recovery. The very worst ills we're largely averted by the initial unemployment benefits, but you still have a huge number of people who are genuinely waiting on the court date before they get evicted. People under constant stress get short tempered and violent. Additionally organized crime is ever evolving. While we seem to be forever stuck in the last days of the war on drugs, the part where you realize the only way to win is to provide a cheap safe and legal alternative, organized crime is moving on to other kinds of crime and bringing the violent side with it.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:30
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DeadlyMuffin posted:My argument is that LGBT acceptance doesn't correlate with economic system.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:31
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Sephyr posted:https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1470438857510465541 It’s a repeat, it’s not news, it’s clickbait repackaging a multiple day old press conference with no new information.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:33
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Discendo Vox posted:It’s a repeat, it’s not news, it’s clickbait repackaging a multiple day old press conference with no new information. Ugh. What I get for trusting Forbes. And I worked there. I should know better.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:43
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Communism will not end bigotry. It will however radically change it because the bigotry you know in your life has been cultivated to support capitalism.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:46
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Eh give Forbes a break, they just got a little too excited at the good news Millions of people are being put back into debt peonage, it's a Christmas miracle
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Dec 14, 2021 14:47
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Sephyr posted:https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1470438857510465541 Absolute political suicide.
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Dec 14, 2021 14:58
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Gumball Gumption posted:Communism will not end bigotry. It will however radically change it because the bigotry you know in your life has been cultivated to support capitalism. Or to put it another way as long as capitalism exists bigotry will still be crushing billions. You can reduce the amount but ultimately accepting that is just another way of deciding what the acceptable level of minority is.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:06
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Nucleic Acids posted:Absolute political suicide. Yeah, but brunch isn't going to serve itself, so back to work peasant.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:06
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It's important to focus on trans issues and racial issues so that our trans and nonwhite comrades can be brought up to the cis white male working poor level of equity so we can continue the fight against capital together
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Dec 14, 2021 15:08
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The texts the Jan. 6th commission secured from Don Jr. look pretty bad. Too bad nothing will happen to him. quote:Yesterday was a terrible day. We tried everything we could in our objection to the 6 states. I'm sorry nothing worked. We've got one last chance tomorrow. quote:On Jan. 6th Pence needs to pull all of the votes he believes are unconstitutional and count them as no votes at all. quote:He’s got to condemn this ASAP. The Capitol Police tweet is not enough. We need an oval office address. He has to lead now. It has gone too far. And gotten out of hand. quote:It wasn't supposed to go like this. Too sloppy and not helping. Need to get ahead of it. quote:Meadows needs to get him to deter riots. Its not helping us now. quote:He’s got to condemn this poo poo ASAP. They are going to certify and we are hosed. Achieves nothing. quote:We haven't achieved anything concrete. Can't stay silent for this long. This is hurting all of us … he is destroying his legacy. quote:Use Meadows personal cell and gmail only today. No job phone or email. quote:[Sent January 7th, 2021] I’m sorry nothing worked no way forward
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Dec 14, 2021 15:09
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Discendo Vox posted:It’s a repeat, it’s not news, it’s clickbait repackaging a multiple day old press conference with no new information. I think it points to the increasing obviousness of the self-own as media establishments continue to run with the headlines. Not that that was how the article was presented, but it isn't devoid of discussion value. I out itnin the same vicinity as 'you didnt build that, someone else built that for you' in 'obvious potential to be savagely used against me politically'
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Dec 14, 2021 15:15
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Sephyr posted:Ugh. What I get for trusting Forbes. No worries. The article packages together relevant information about what has (or has not) gone down regarding student loan debt. As well, not everyone reads this forum religiously so there are bound to be lurkers that learned something by you sharing that.
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Dec 14, 2021 15:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The texts the Jan. 6th commission secured from Don Jr. look pretty bad. Little did he know, he needn't have worried. Things turned out pretty well for them all things considered Best case scenario short of actually keeping the Presidency, in fact
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Dec 14, 2021 15:47
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Republicans in the Senate are looking to challenge the $35 cap on insulin provision for private plans in the reconciliation bill through the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. If successful, it would limit the $35 cap on insulin to only apply to people on Medicaid, Tri-care, or Medicare. McConnell hasn't committed to doing it yet, though. https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1470401323610869762
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Dec 14, 2021 15:53
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Sephyr posted:https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1470438857510465541 Things we will get/have gotten from Biden’s presidency: - A neutered infrastructure bill - Severely trimmed down BBB, if any BBB at all - Return to status quo on student loans - No change on weed policy - A bloodbath in the midterms - A quick switch back to an R president - Zero “real” action on anything Jan 6 or Trump related - No reform on healthcare at all beyond a minor Medicare expansion So all said and done, we really just get an infrastructure bill. Is there anything at all to be optimistic about right now? “Nothing will fundamentally change” indeed… Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 15:59
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Gin_Rummy posted:Things we will get/have gotten from Biden’s presidency: We banished Rahm Emanuel from the western hemisphere and got an extra day off in June every year.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It happens every time, liberals smile and nod along with the idea of rights and progress for minorities right up until the moment when those people need something, other than gestures and symbols, and then you can practically see the sputtering, the disbelief, the obvious disgust. The eagerness to buy into right-wing propaganda when it suits their narrative, since that's exactly what it's supposed to do. Yeah, it's the liberal ventriloquizing I've referred to, in which some people fantasize about what the right thinks or would say, and before you know it they've internalized these talking points & express genuine dismay at imaginary waiting times for doctors when citizens receive healthcare as a human right, rather than as a commodity that has & continues to become increasingly unaffordable. eta this for Gin_Rummy: 
Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 16:04
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USPOL: I’m sorry nothing worked no way forward
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Dec 14, 2021 16:06
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Sedisp posted:Or to put it another way as long as capitalism exists bigotry will still be crushing billions. You can reduce the amount but ultimately accepting that is just another way of deciding what the acceptable level of minority is. Yep, exactly. Like, I cannot at all pretend communism will somehow solve bigotry. Humans have found ways to hate each other for all of history and I would absolutely expect new ones to emerge during periods of major societal change. Which again, all of human history. But the ways we currently hate each other have their roots in the last few hundred years of history and societal systems that have required out groups and underclasses. Doing what we can to dismantle the needs for those outgroups and underclasses will have an impact.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:10
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Willa Rogers posted:
Lol yeah there we go. I would probably say there is an argument in favor of “not be Trump,” though I suppose there is plenty of Presidency left for that.
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Dec 14, 2021 16:12
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VitalSigns posted:Nobody is saying it does. But since we have it now I don't see why you think it would go away if we had free healthcare? We have it now? LGBT issues are a solved problem? What utopia do you live in? And I'm not saying what we do have would go away if we had free healthcare, I'm saying there's a lot of work still to be done and that's important, and I worry is ignored by a focus on pure class struggle. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 16:16
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