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TheRat posted:I'm sure I do. Everyone should take vaccines, but nobody should be forced to. Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:26
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keep punching joe posted:Like why would you be an NHS worker and not want to be vaccinated, afraid of medicines? I work in a place where I get to talk to a lot of city employees and you'd be surprised how many healthcare employees have really dumb opinions about vaccines.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:26
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TheRat posted:I work in a place where I get to talk to a lot of city employees and you'd be surprised how many healthcare employees have really dumb opinions about vaccines. Great, they should be sacked and replaced by people who aren't insane.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:28
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I saw a lad walking through London Bridge station yesterday with a jumper that just said 'gently caress THE VAX' in huge block letters. May as well have painted oval office on his forehead.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:28
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ThomasPaine posted:Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window. Most medical conditons are not contagious, for ones that are and particularly for ones that are and are indiscriminately contagious and nothing you can do will stop them from spreading from you if you have them, it is not just a personal decision. The better comparison is running around with a loaded gun waving it about.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:30
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Not So Fast posted:It makes sense for NHS workers, I have no idea why someone working for the NHS would'nt be vaccinated by now. There's a segment of the population which can't receive vaccines and I'd guess they're represented in the NHS as well? Plus the army of NHS workers who do back-office stuff and aren't in high risk roles. Occupational health in the NHS does routinely offer vaccinations like Hep A to high-risk staff though, so it's not like this legislation is closing some gaping hole in our healthcare defences. It's just a silly stunt.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:31
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The vaccine requirement for NHS staff is for patient facing staff so hypothetically some of the unvaccinated staff could just have their positions changed rather than lose their jobs but it's still bad, the unions are opposed to it and since everywhere is shortstaffed already there's a real argument that unvaccinated staff leaving positions unfilled is more dangerous to patient care than having them potentially spreading covid around. I don't have a deep ideological belief it shouldn't ever be done but it shouldn't be done in this case, particularly on the reasoning the government is saying it needs to be done.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:33
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Endjinneer posted:There's a segment of the population which can't receive vaccines and I'd guess they're represented in the NHS as well? Plus the army of NHS workers who do back-office stuff and aren't in high risk roles. I saw a stat on Sky News, theres 94,000 unvacced, 9% of the NHS staff.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:33
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Yeah I can entirely buy an argument that making it mandatory right this second might be extremely counterproductive given that you can't just magic up replacements, but in the longer term it seems like a sensible goal?
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Dec 14, 2021 20:35
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TheRat posted:I'm sure I do. Everyone should take vaccines, but nobody should be forced to. Especially since it does sweet gently caress all to limit transmission. Lol. goddamnedtwisto has already disbunked this, but what bollocks. stev posted:Does NHS staff just cover medical professionals or everyone employed by it? Because there are plenty for people who just work for the NHS to put food on the table like everyone else, and there's no prerequisite that you not be an utter dickhead to work for it. The requirement is for patient-facing staff to be vaccinated or redeployed to non-patient-facing roles if not. So that would be doctors, nurses, physiotherapists, HCAs, porters, receptionists and many many others, but not, say, someone who works in a purely administrative role and never has patient contact. ThomasPaine posted:Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window. Informed consent applies; the question is whether people should be allowed to work in a patient-facing role if they have made a decision that potentially puts patients at risk from them.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:38
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ThomasPaine posted:Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window. the british public need to be broken like animals, hth
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Dec 14, 2021 20:39
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ThomasPaine posted:Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window. Informed consent doesn't mean what you think it does. As long as you make it clear the consequences of not having the vaccine - catching CoViD, dying, losing your job, the consent is entirely informed. There's nothing that says the risks and benefits of the proposed procedure have to be the slightest bit fair. You can discuss alternatives, but that's about it. No one is going to force you to have a jab but similarly nothing is going to stop you getting sacked if you don't find a great reason why you should be excused from having it. There's also a fair bit of anger on the frontlines about the "voluntarily unvaccinated" so I wouldn't be surprised if you get reported to your regulator by your colleagues if they find out.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:45
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A while ago they made it compulsory for care home workers, as far as I heard on the radio anyway. People complained then that it wasn't fair because why weren't the whole NHS being made to get it? The reply was they are, is just taking longer to do that. So I guess, assuming the care home went through, they'll all be a bit pissed off if the wider NHS avoids it. Not that I suppose that matters much. It should be compulsory, no ones being strapped down or shot with poison darts without their consent. They're just facing professional consequences for bad decision making.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:47
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Endjinneer posted:[b]There's a segment of the population which can't receive vaccines and I'd guess they're represented in the NHS as well? Plus the army of NHS workers who do back-office stuff and aren't in high risk roles. There is almost nobody who is medically unable to have any of the Covid vaccines on offer. The precedent here is Hepatitis B - everyone doing 'exposure prone procedures' (dentistry, surgery, pretty much any somewhat-invasive procedure) needs to have had hep B immunisation, to prevent a hepatitis B-infected healthcare worker giving a patient hepatitis B through inadvertent blood-to-blood contact during those procedures. Of course, hep B vaccines also vastly reduces the risk of the healthcare worker getting hep B from a patient if the reverse happens. Somehow the hep B vaccine requirement never seems to have created much waves, but Covid has.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:48
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If you're a health worker that doesn't believe in vaccination then you're in the wrong job, hth
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Dec 14, 2021 20:48
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah I can entirely buy an argument that making it mandatory right this second might be extremely counterproductive given that you can't just magic up replacements, but in the longer term it seems like a sensible goal? How long is your longer term though? Things are still going to be awful in April next year so we'll need the staff and later on the specific vaccines used may not work very well against a new variant. Patient safety is vastly better served by making society safer and we should be doing vastly more measures to limit community transmission before getting too concerned over getting all patient facing health staff with a vaccine.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:51
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Imo there are strong arguments that medical ethics as it is understood & practiced places undue weight on the principle of informed consent, & vaccines are the best illustration of why. However, informed consent is essentially the fundamental axiom of medical ethics as it's currently understood & practiced, & the notion that Parliament can or should just legislate ethics away because it's convenient is pretty hosed. Luckily, this proposal doesn't do that, it's fine. J-Corbz is wrong.
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Dec 14, 2021 20:52
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One of the physios I worked with back in May last year said he wasn't certain covid existed lol. He also loved trump
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Dec 14, 2021 20:52
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Also I don't know why you would not want the vaccine if you're a patient facing staff. You're literally at highest risk of catching it. I mean I can sorta imagine some goony computer toucher that lives on SA and Deliveroo might judge their personal risk to be minimal, but most patient facing NHS staff get coughed on regularly even before covid. Borrovan posted:Imo there are strong arguments that medical ethics as it is understood & practiced places undue weight on the principle of informed consent, & vaccines are the best illustration of why. However, informed consent is essentially the fundamental axiom of medical ethics as it's currently understood & practiced, & the notion that Parliament can or should just legislate ethics away because it's convenient is pretty hosed. How would you even legislate away informed consent in this context though? You wouldn't be forcing them to have it, just threatening them with the sack/reassignment/etc if they don't. Considering for a fair few medical procedures the consequences discussed are "death or severe disability", getting the sack is pretty minor by comparison. Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 20:54
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Z the IVth posted:Also I don't know why you would not want the vaccine if you're a patient facing staff. You're literally at highest risk of catching it. "I'm young, healthy and I know my body better than some doctor" is a thing I've heard way too often
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Dec 14, 2021 20:55
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namesake posted:How long is your longer term though? Things are still going to be awful in April next year so we'll need the staff and later on the specific vaccines used may not work very well against a new variant. Patient safety is vastly better served by making society safer and we should be doing vastly more measures to limit community transmission before getting too concerned over getting all patient facing health staff with a vaccine. As long as it needs to be, really. If a sizeable section of frontline medical staff are holding and espousing lovely medical takes then that does seem like a problem, not necessarily that high on the list of problems immediately this second but stamping out antivaccine sentiment is important from a societal perspective and medical staff are in a position of trust and authority on the matter. If they hold those views I just don't think they're suitable to be doing the job because I have absolutely no trust that they would not be advocating them to people in a professional capacity, even if they actually kill comparatively few people in the process. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 20:58
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ThomasPaine posted:Yeah I really am disturbed by the number of usually decent people apparently quite happy to entirely throw the whole principle of informed consent out of the window. Take it up with Thomas Hobbes or The Joker, because we live in a freakin' society. Your right to be an ignoramus does not trump your nan's right to continued existence
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Dec 14, 2021 21:00
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namesake posted:How long is your longer term though? Things are still going to be awful in April next year so we'll need the staff and later on the specific vaccines used may not work very well against a new variant. Patient safety is vastly better served by making society safer and we should be doing vastly more measures to limit community transmission before getting too concerned over getting all patient facing health staff with a vaccine. I feel like getting anyone dumb enough to think they don't need to be vaccinated out of the NHS is going to do quite a lot to improve patient safety, to be honest. We wouldn't tolerate anyone saying "Actually I don't need to wash my hands because germ theory isn't proven yet" in a patient-facing role, why the gently caress would we trust anyone trying to "Well actually" literally every health authority on earth?
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Dec 14, 2021 21:05
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Z the IVth posted:How would you even legislate away informed consent in this context though? You wouldn't be forcing them to have it, just threatening them with the sack/reassignment/etc if they don't. Considering for a fair few medical procedures the consequences discussed are "death or severe disability", getting the sack is pretty minor by comparison.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I feel like getting anyone dumb enough to think they don't need to be vaccinated out of the NHS is going to do quite a lot to improve patient safety, to be honest. We wouldn't tolerate anyone saying "Actually I don't need to wash my hands because germ theory isn't proven yet" in a patient-facing role, why the gently caress would we trust anyone trying to "Well actually" literally every health authority on earth? I think the principle is good, but the execution is poor. If the unions are backing a carrot approach on this, then back the unions with more carrots, not a shiny new stick.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:07
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OwlFancier posted:As long as it needs to be, really. If a sizeable section of frontline medical staff are holding and espousing lovely medical takes then that does seem like a problem, not necessarily that high on the list of problems immediately this second but stamping out antivaccine sentiment is important from a societal perspective and medical staff are in a position of trust and authority on the matter. If they hold those views I just don't think they're suitable to be doing the job because I have absolutely no trust that they would not be advocating them to people in a professional capacity, even if they actually kill comparatively few people in the process. Ah okay if we're only talking about confidence in vaccination then yeah I agree. Medical staff are vaccinated more than the general population though so there is some higher confidence and willingness amongst the staff than you get elsewhere which is good. This isn't a general principle program though this is the government saying 'we need all staff vaccinated to keep hospitals safe for the patients' which hasn't been their attitude for the last decade so that's suspicious while also doing the minimum other things to keep the numbers of people needing hospitals low which increases the danger for patients in need of medical treatment. It really does act more as an attack on NHS staff and healthcare provision than patient protection. goddamnedtwisto posted:I feel like getting anyone dumb enough to think they don't need to be vaccinated out of the NHS is going to do quite a lot to improve patient safety, to be honest. We wouldn't tolerate anyone saying "Actually I don't need to wash my hands because germ theory isn't proven yet" in a patient-facing role, why the gently caress would we trust anyone trying to "Well actually" literally every health authority on earth? It matters less that they believe wrong things about some part of a medical field that may not relate to their work at all so long as they know how to act when a patient codes, can and will prescribe the right treatments in their specialties, won't confuse vital organs during surgery, etc. namesake fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 21:09
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There are a bunch of vaccinations you have to have as a clinical NHS worker anyway, this is no different and jezza is an idiot
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Dec 14, 2021 21:11
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Pay rise for NHS staff who have been vaccinated, pay freeze for those who choose to remain unsullied by Bill Gates' 5G sterilizing signal.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:13
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I can see why people would be wary of compulsory medical procedures. With Tuskegee & Ice hysterectomies the US and Depo-Provera in Israel, you probably don't want to normalise the principle. EDIT: To be clear I got my two doses and I'm getting my booster this week. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 21:13
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I think there is a difference between mandating people get vaccines so that they stop killing people around them and hacking out someone's uterus as part of some kind of hosed up eugenics program. Like those two things are very different and I do not have trouble telling them apart.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:17
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There's still a shitload of And - as has been pointed out lots of times - there are valid reasons why healthcare workers from minority ethnic groups might not trust the process that delivers medical treatments. But some NHS staff are just poo poo-for-brains morons, and in a world where the Tories weren't actively defunding the NHS and making hospitals desperate for staff, these cunts wouldn't get hired to actually have any role in a healthcare setting. [edit] To clarify, I got my first vaccine dose the earliest opportunity I could get it; my second dose maybe 3 days after it was due and my booster the second day my employer was offering it. And I've encouraged every hesitant colleague I've spoken to to get it. kingturnip fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 21:19
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namesake posted:It matters less that they believe wrong things about some part of a medical field that may not relate to their work at all so long as they know how to act when a patient codes, can and will proscribe the right treatments in their specialties, won't confuse vital organs during surgery, etc. Basic hygiene is not an obscure field that applies only to people doing certain jobs, and definitely shouldn't be a matter of conscience. I don't give a poo poo how good someone is at brain surgery if they think it's inconvenient to use new scalpels each time and just ran them under the tap between patients.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:20
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Like either you believe vaccines work or you think that a shitload of diseases were all international conspiracies by Big Vaccine to implant the 0.001G vacuum tubes into people a hundred years ago.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:22
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OwlFancier posted:Like either you believe vaccines work or you think that a shitload of diseases were all international conspiracies by Big Vaccine to implant the 0.001G vacuum tubes into people a hundred years ago. No? Looke posted:There are a bunch of vaccinations you have to have as a clinical NHS worker anyway, this is no different and jezza is an idiot You agree that you need those vaccinations before you start the job. It's a condition of accepting the job that you either agree to - and get your new job - or don't agree to, and stay where you are. Saying "You've got this job already, now we're going to impose a new condition on you, and if you don't accept it and we can't find another use for you, you're fired" is the kind of thing where if it was any other condition it would be considered utterly unacceptable. I think NHS staff - not just those in patient-facing roles - should all be vaccinated, but a compulsory do it or get sacked approach is stupid and will be actively harmful to some communities.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:31
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The Heaf test was transistors. You're all going round with an arm full of half-adders.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:31
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Basic hygiene is not an obscure field that applies only to people doing certain jobs, and definitely shouldn't be a matter of conscience. I don't give a poo poo how good someone is at brain surgery if they think it's inconvenient to use new scalpels each time and just ran them under the tap between patients. Staff would and should obviously be fired for such dangerous practices. Healthcare workers opinions on vaccination only matter if patients ask them what they think about vaccines and their vaccinated status only matters in a vast risk matrix below things like PPE training and quality and exposure levels the patient gets from society generally. Even if you think absolutely every measure possible should be used to shave off every fraction of a percentage then there are vastly more important measures to take first. kingturnip posted:You agree that you need those vaccinations before you start the job. It's a condition of accepting the job that you either agree to - and get your new job - or don't agree to, and stay where you are. I'm less sympathetic to this argument. Yes it's all good in a worker power sense, you cannot allow your exploiters to just rewrite contracts to force things onto you, but there's enough specifics going on here to mean it shouldn't be the first argument used. namesake fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 21:35
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kingturnip posted:No? Except for any job where you have to keep up a certification, you don't get to say "well I learned the regs in 1963 and I don't see why I need to learn anything else" I have to learn new tech all the time for my job, and it's a pain in the arse but if it's what the company is doing I can hardly say "well I don't want to do that you need to keep using the old tech" and expect not to be fired if everyone else disagrees? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 21:38
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Z the IVth posted:Informed consent doesn't mean what you think it does. Hmm, no. Consent is by definition invalidated when it's coerced with threats of destitution, that shouldn't be controversial. Wild how there are huge numbers of people perfectly able to criticise government authoritarianism in one breath before breathlessly cheerleading it the next. You might believe - as I do - that it is a desirable thing for as many people as possible to get the vaccine. That shouldn't be license to uncritically accept the expansion of state power over our bodies. Hell, you might have the discussion and decide that on balance this is a point at which that sacrifice might be necessary, but you have to acknowledge the implications. This isn't the unproblematic thing some people are pretending it is.
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Dec 14, 2021 21:39
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kingturnip posted:I think NHS staff - not just those in patient-facing roles - should all be vaccinated, but a compulsory do it or get sacked approach is stupid and will be actively harmful to some communities. Unvaccinated care workers killing people with coronavirus would also be actively harmful to some communities
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Dec 14, 2021 21:39
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I signed up to do lobotomies on people and if you tell me I'm going to be fired if I keep doing them then that's actually me being oppressed! You can't change the conditions of my job after the fact!
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Dec 14, 2021 21:43
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