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i say swears online posted:it's driving me nuts i can't think of it specifically right now, but in the old testament there's a chapter about a boy working in the temple who finds a dusty old scroll and the priest realizes they've been doing judaism wrong which sparks some sort of reformation. i assume this has some historical analogue and that lots of israelite canon (non-canaanical sources heh) was shed after the return from babylonian exile You are thinking of Hilkiah, a High Priest, whose finding of "The Book of the Law" is recorded in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles. Most scholars think that what he found was what we now have as Deuteronomy.
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Dec 12, 2021 03:47
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Dec 12, 2021 03:50
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Azathoth posted:You are thinking of Hilkiah, a High Priest, whose finding of "The Book of the Law" is recorded in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles. Most scholars think that what he found was what we now have as Deuteronomy. ty ty, i was digging around Samuel and wasn't finding anything, then realized it was from after the judges -> solomon period
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Dec 12, 2021 03:52
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inri = isukiri nomine rex iudaeorum
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Dec 12, 2021 03:58
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the truth was right infront of us
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Dec 12, 2021 03:58
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i say swears online posted:it's driving me nuts i can't think of it specifically right now, but in the old testament there's a chapter about a boy working in the temple who finds a dusty old scroll and the priest realizes they've been doing judaism wrong which sparks some sort of reformation. i assume this has some historical analogue and that lots of israelite canon (non-canaanical sources heh) was shed after the return from babylonian exile the thing to understand about judaism is that it was originally polytheistic and a lot of the conflict and reformation described in the old testament/tanakh is really talking about its shift toward monotheism, but everything was written down after it was firmly monotheistic so there's a lot of reluctance to really examine the presence of other gods even in the parts of the old testament that are more "hebrew history" than "religious doctrine" the return from the exile is around the time that this shift happened in earnest, yeah, and also the point where the "israelite" identity firmly separates from "canaanite", i.e. phoenician Jazerus has issued a correction as of 04:02 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 03:59
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yeah in the link of hilkiah above it mentions that the most important incorporation was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael which shifted the religion to monotheistic. i guess this happened before the exile during the reign of the corrupt kings of israel but must've been pretty close
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Dec 12, 2021 04:04
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Real hurthling! posted:inri = isukiri nomine rex iudaeorum I think I saw that anime
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Dec 12, 2021 04:05
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i say swears online posted:yeah in the link of hilkiah above it mentions that the most important incorporation was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael which shifted the religion to monotheistic. i guess this happened before the exile during the reign of the corrupt kings of israel but must've been pretty close it was a long process. things started out sort of analogous to the greek pantheon, where you've got some big gods in charge of the world, some medium-sized gods who tend to be protectors of individual cities and states, and small gods with fairly restricted domains like hermes or hephaestus. over time yahweh went from patron of the israelites, akin to athena for athens or apollo for sparta, to being a fusion of his former self and the chief god, El. from here he goes on to absorb/rule over all of the small gods (i.e. angels) and the patron gods of non-israelite canaanites shift from being "real gods that protect our enemies" to false gods. this is the reason for his tremendous concern over graven idols and other such things you wouldn't think The One God would care so much about - at one time, the story was about the israelites abandoning yahweh to worship some other real gods, which you would expect a patron deity to not be very happy about. obviously, this is also part of why he's so tremendously capricious and varies a lot in his concerns from story to story - many of these stories were at one time about the affairs of entirely different gods, not all about the same dude. particularly interesting to me is the story where abraham nearly sacrifices isaac before god says "hey, just fuckin with you pal, put the knife down", because from all indications this was originally a canaanite story where abraham does the deed and baal ha'dad or whoever gives him a big thumbs up for it. human sacrifice was a really distinctive feature of the canaanite/phoenician/carthaginian religion and a big driver of the cultural split between them and the israelites, who eventually decided it was very not cool to sacrifice people. so that story isn't god just being a dick for no reason, it's a sort of propaganda piece against human sacrifice in the context of an extant pro-sacrifice story Jazerus has issued a correction as of 04:59 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 04:34
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yeah that's why judges through kings is the most interesting part of the bible historically, since you can see yahweh muscling into palestine in a crowded pantheon through joshua and gideon until it's de-facto the dominant god by elijah
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Dec 12, 2021 04:42
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I've always loved how we get the exact same story told from two entirely different perspectives. Take that biblical literalists!
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Dec 12, 2021 04:49
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Don't have anything specific to add to biblechat but if anyone is interested in historical/secular study of the bible, I highly recommend the history in the bible podcast. He does a really good job of explaining how the books developed over time and how various sources got integrated into each book. Really made me appreciate the old testament as a historical document. https://www.historyinthebible.com/
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Dec 12, 2021 05:05
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Dec 12, 2021 08:38
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Azathoth posted:Yeah, the genuine Pauline letters were written within 20 to 25 years of the crucifixion. Essentially imagine someone today writing about Marshall Applewhite, that's about how much distance we have from that event as Paul had from the events of the life and death of Jesus. Obviously not a fair comparison, what with the internet and all, but hopefully it serves as a useful comparison. How do hardcore mythicists dismiss all the mentions of Christ in them then? e: the letter to the Galatians argues that circumcision is bad, gender is fake and jesus is real lol. check out the hot takes from old paulie Drunkboxer has issued a correction as of 13:19 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 13:12
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Drunkboxer posted:e: the letter to the Galatians argues that circumcision is bad, gender is fake and jesus is real lol. check out the hot takes from old paulie The early/genuine Paul letters have some of the most radically emancipatory language in the New Testament. Way more than the Jesus club led by James in Jerusalem or the Johanine school. Paul's reputation as a puritan and misogynist comes mostly "his" late letters probably written after his death. Maybe there is some sort of lost history about an institutional subject trying to impose authority on the more grassroots or radical or heterodox groups.
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Dec 12, 2021 13:45
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Drunkboxer posted:How do hardcore mythicists dismiss all the mentions of Christ in them then? Paul never met JC, he’s writing about stuff he heard and one vision he had in close proximity to receiving a traumatic brain injury
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Dec 12, 2021 16:04
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Wait you mean to tell me that the slaveowning libertarians were right-wing? Now I've heard everything
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Dec 12, 2021 16:06
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Yadoppsi posted:The early/genuine Paul letters have some of the most radically emancipatory language in the New Testament. Way more than the Jesus club led by James in Jerusalem or the Johanine school. Paul's reputation as a puritan and misogynist comes mostly "his" late letters probably written after his death. Badiou's St. Paul is probably my second favorite 20th century Marxist work. I highly recommend it. That said there's no reason why Paul couldn't have a set of views that appear contradictory in the 21st century. It was 2000 years ago and living people today hold views that feel contradictory to the 21st century (e.g. pro-liberation and pro-capitalism). It is a long tradition to take your words and attribute them to an already respected figure, people could have done that for deradicalizing reasons or they could have done that just because they hated women and figured this was where they could add some authority to their ideas.
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Dec 12, 2021 16:15
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Drunkboxer posted:How do hardcore mythicists dismiss all the mentions of Christ in them then? It's a valid criticism that we don't have a complete extant copy of what we would now call the New Testament until ~300 and even then the copies that we do have show significant and long-standing textual deviation, and not the kind of deviation that we would expect to see strictly from scribal errors or mistranslation. Even just taking two of the most famous copies, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus (heh vatic anus), and ignoring all the other fragments and codexes and whatnot, it isn't possible to fully reconcile even these two into a "true" original. It's obvious that very early on in the process, people were rewriting the texts to match their own emerging theology or preferences. Now taken in the aggregate, these differences don't really have much actual theological impact. There's individual verses whose meaning is obviously different but it's not like how the Jehovah's Witnesses translate John 1:1 as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god" rather than the more standard "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (everything from the NRSV to the KJV translates that the same). However, the fact that we don't really have copies of these texts from the first 50-100 years of their life leaves open a gap into which mythicists flood in basically saying that a conspiracy happened sometime in the very early church, about which we have no surviving textual evidence despite having a TON of letters from the early church fathers, and a lot more references to said early letters from later church fathers. It's not quite on the level of conspiracy theory, but it does require a lot of selective evidence picking and a willful ignorance of a lot more simple solutions to make it happen. It's easy to forget that while early Christianity was more of a lower class thing and underground at various times, we have writing from people like Polycarp, who was himself a follower of John the Apostle. If there was a conspiracy to invent a historical Jesus, it begs belief that it could have happened later than the literal Apostles themselves, and even if one accepts that were possible, it raises a huge question of why hell anyone would do that. It definitely didn't make any of their lives easier, and while I doubt that literally all of them died as martyrs as tradition holds, Josephus records that at least one of them did. Seems like a weird thing to stick to for a guy that you invented out of whole cloth for ... some reason.
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Dec 12, 2021 17:20
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Alioth posted:Don't have anything specific to add to biblechat but if anyone is interested in historical/secular study of the bible, I highly recommend the history in the bible podcast. He does a really good job of explaining how the books developed over time and how various sources got integrated into each book. Really made me appreciate the old testament as a historical document. started listening to this today and it's a very pleasant listen so far. not really into the meat of things yet but it seems pretty good
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Dec 13, 2021 01:23
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Ghostlight posted:you really think someone would do that? just go into history and tell lies? look out guys we got a Herodotus truther over here
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Dec 13, 2021 01:40
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Lord of Pie posted:look out guys we got a Herodotus truther over here Can you prove that there was never giant, furry ants who dug for gold in India?
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Dec 13, 2021 19:26
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Alhazred posted:Can you prove that there was never giant, furry ants who dug for gold in India? those are real, my torso-faced friend told me about them
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Dec 13, 2021 19:29
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Hell yes I'm reading the records of the grand historian from 94BC about Western han dynasty China I saw a chapter called Records of the Emperors Male Favourites and its exactly what I hoped. Theyr explicitly having loads of gay sex and wearing makeup and fancy hats with feathers and seashell necklaces to look hot for the Emperor Chinese history is so much hornier than they let on
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Dec 14, 2021 21:34
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It rules imo
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Dec 14, 2021 21:39
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mawarannahr posted:This is a classic Just finished this. rip Menocchio, blabbed about books he read so much he was tortured and burned alive
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Dec 14, 2021 21:57
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Drunkboxer posted:Just finished this. rip Menocchio, blabbed about books he read so much he was tortured and burned alive he makes more sense than the church metaphysics, that’s why he had to die
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Dec 14, 2021 23:20
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Tulip posted:It rules imo Agreed, there's also a lot of sex/romance with eunuchs and the translator seems to think that's impossible but it clearly keeps happening over and over so it obviously isn't. Emperor Wu, who ruled for a longass time and took the throne as a powerless teen and ended up one of the greatest emps ever, had a gay lover who he did everything with and my interpretation was he may have been joining in in loving the concubines. Then his lil bro gets upset about it and goes crying to the more powerful Empress dowager who has the boyfriend killed for shagging a concubine. Then later in life the emperor gets a habit of executing his lovers, including two brothers from one of the big schemey factions. That seems to have been a theme tbh, having your gay lovers killed or exiled when they got old and less hot. There's a fun phrase the ancient Historian relates that's essentially, "no matter how diligently you farm it doesn't compare to good weather, similarly, no matter how hard you work it doesn't compare to your boss thinking you're hot" Communist Thoughts has issued a correction as of 15:21 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 15:09
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still more logical than mormonism
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Dec 15, 2021 15:16
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zegermans posted:still more logical than mormonism this is probably one step past islam, but thirty steps before mormonism on the christian heresy measure
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Dec 15, 2021 17:40
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And did those feet in ancient times read narutos latest release
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Dec 15, 2021 17:42
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its pretty hosed up imo that the entire field of history depends on the existence of giant, gold digging ants in asia
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Dec 17, 2021 18:59
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Isn't the theory that the infamous gold-digging ants were probably marmots passed through a mangle of word-of-mouth and translation?
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Dec 17, 2021 19:05
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Shogi posted:Isn't the theory that the infamous gold-digging ants were probably marmots passed through a mangle of word-of-mouth and translation? yes. there are gold-digging marmots on the india-pakistan border
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Dec 17, 2021 19:07
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Shogi posted:Isn't the theory that the infamous gold-digging ants were probably marmots passed through a mangle of word-of-mouth and translation? yeah there's apparently some kind of ground rodent that digs around and the little piles of dirt they leave have enough gold dust to be viable to collect, or at least had enough back then to be viable to collect
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Dec 17, 2021 19:08
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Jazerus posted:yes. there are gold-digging marmots on the india-pakistan border Herodotus was right. I also deeply believe in his account of Hippokleides. He competed for the right to marry the tyrant of Sikyon's daughter and got through to the big final, at which point he got so drunk he got up on the table and started breakdancing to sick flute tunes. The tyrant tells him he's just danced away his marriage and our hero's response is 'οὐ φροντὶς Ἱπποκλείδῃ' lit. 'No care for Hippokleides', which Herodotus tells us became a phrase meaning 'idgaf' throughout Greece
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Dec 17, 2021 19:15
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Shogi posted:Herodotus was right. seems to me like he specifically wasn't. marmots aren't ants, wth also this leads me to the conclusion that herodotus was full of poo poo, and the greco-persian wars probably never even happened
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Dec 17, 2021 20:42
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Jazerus posted:yes. there are gold-digging marmots on the india-pakistan border can affirm, i went there, married a marmot, and then it took my house in the divorce
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Dec 17, 2021 20:46
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theres a lot of dumb stuff in herodotus that turned out to be truea dumb article i read in 2009 before quitting my phd posted:Herodotus has told us some queer tales but it is always unsafe to discredit them merely because they seem strange to us. Who would have thought that his story of the bald-headed Argippaioi who sat under trees judging the Scythians was literally true until the recent discovery in Russia of a felt wall hanging providing a contemporary illustration of these queer tribunals ? the article then went on to argue that herodutus' flying snakes of arabia were actually bees and i stopped reading and resigned my fellowship for unrelated reasons
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Dec 17, 2021 20:48
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:can affirm, i went there, married a marmot, and then it took my house in the divorce *herodotusly taking notes* yes, yes, and you say these house stealing rats live beyond persia?
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Dec 17, 2021 20:49
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