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I think it's reasonable to not describe the show as a literal dystopia, but it is really an academic conversation at that point and is not very helpful at this point. Bebop's world represents the characters - they are in the darker corners of the universe. It also shows that the problems of today are not solved. It also shows that law enforcement has broken down since the only way to get justice is to have a privatize police force of bounty hunters, and God knows what rules and credentials are required. This show doesn't really deal with any of that. Take the Londes episode. In the original, it's a big cult. In the remake, it's just a VR monster of the week. Brain Scratch deals with our society in a realistic way - our obsession with media, Japanese cults. Think about how they reveal Faye's amnesia. In the original, there's a story that let's us see more about Faye and see a human struggle - someone dealing with debts. Here, she just says hey I have amnesia! I don't even want to talk about what they did to the syndicate. The story is just utter garbage that is completely embarrassing. In the original, the whole thing was left unexplained. Here they fill in the blanks, but ignore the loving point. The syndicate in the original was something that Spike couldn't run away from. It came up at moments that were completely shattering to Spike.
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Dec 14, 2021 01:07
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Cemetry Gator posted:
I mean, Viscious in the Anime was basically a blank slate. Like Julia, it was never about who they were, it was always about what they represented. Vicious is Moby Dick in that sense. It was the object of Spike's obsession, the reason why he could never really keep his head out of his past, and he keeps getting drawn back into it. Now imagine if Netflix adapted Moby Dick and put half of it in the perspective of the whale planning his dastardly revenge and working out his plans to draw that dastardly Captain Ahab back out to sea where he will be whale-murdered? That's the treatment they gave Netflix Cowboy Bebop. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 01:36
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, Viscious in the Anime was basically a blank slate. Like Julia, it was never about who they were, it was always about what they represented. I'm sure it's not new for anyone in here, but I liked a point about how the viewers pretty much only get Spike's memories of Julia, which portray her as a soft, angelic, nurturing figure. And then she shows up speeding in a car with a gun and she's basically just another Faye. The last bit of Julia's arc is confirming that we don't really know her and we don't get a chance to, other than what she meant to Spike. I always kind of liked that, given how much the show focused on nostalgia.
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Dec 14, 2021 02:01
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I dont know how the Syndicate in the original is a mystery. Mao describes the syndicates' situation in his first scene. They're dying off because the status quo of conflict is weakening organized crime across the solar system and they literally can't keep going without the whole system collapsing. Vicious's takeover at the end didn't save the Red Dragons, it accelerated their downfall because blood for blood vendettas don't solve the underlying problems. He takes over and then literally the next day Spike decapitates the head of the entire organization in a hail of gunfire.
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Dec 14, 2021 02:28
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Arc Hammer posted:I dont know how the Syndicate in the original is a mystery. Mao describes the syndicates' situation in his first scene. They're dying off because the status quo of conflict is weakening organized crime across the solar system and they literally can't keep going without the whole system collapsing. Vicious's takeover at the end didn't save the Red Dragons, it accelerated their downfall because blood for blood vendettas don't solve the underlying problems. He takes over and then literally the next day Spike decapitates the head of the entire organization in a hail of gunfire. It's not a complete unknown, but a lot of the events and specifics are vague. We get one whole episode dedicated to Spike and Vicious's past. In the anime, we're given a few quick glimpses. We know that Vicious is hungry for power and sees the syndicate as old fashioned. Like Michael Corleone, he has to get rid of all of his enemies. Spike can't escape his past. By keeping all the specifics vague, it lets us imagine. It lets us wonder. The Netflix one instead gives us a boring cliche tale, and in the end, it hurts the character of Spike. Edit: it's ironic - for a show named after jazz, they forgot that sometimes it's not the notes that you play but rather the notes you don't play. Like, how much of the story could we get from a few small details in the anime? A lot. Enough to get what was going on. But it also makes the story feel bigger. Cemetry Gator fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 02:46
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https://twitter.com/ComicBook/status/1469421249327730692
Assepoester fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 04:22
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lol
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Dec 14, 2021 04:23
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The article has quote marks in the title, but he didn't actually say that?
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Dec 14, 2021 04:38
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Open Source Idiom posted:The article has quote marks in the title, but he didn't actually say that? Yeah reading the article and that quote in the tweet is completely made up jfc
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Dec 14, 2021 06:51
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Ballz posted:Yeah reading the article and that quote in the tweet is completely made up jfc It wasn't a tweet, it was Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/CXT6UmZuz9C/
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Dec 14, 2021 14:04
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SolarFire2 posted:It wasn't a tweet, it was Instagram. quote:Maybe the “haters” and the critics got us maybe it wasn’t as good as we thought. 🤷🏾♂️ all I know is we got this done under the craziest conditions and I’m proud of what we did. Man, ComicBook.com sucks poo poo. I can't remember, is that one of the sites that just constantly claims baseless nerd media rumors all the time that never pan out? JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Dec 14, 2021 |
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Dec 14, 2021 14:39
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:I'm sure it's not new for anyone in here, but I liked a point about how the viewers pretty much only get Spike's memories of Julia, which portray her as a soft, angelic, nurturing figure. And then she shows up speeding in a car with a gun and she's basically just another Faye. The last bit of Julia's arc is confirming that we don't really know her and we don't get a chance to, other than what she meant to Spike. I always kind of liked that, given how much the show focused on nostalgia.
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Dec 14, 2021 17:21
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My wife liked this and it wasn't great, but I was enjoying a lot of what it offered. Sad we won't get more even if I think it certainly couldn't sustain more than one more set of episodes.
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Dec 14, 2021 18:35
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You could always get her to watch the original show. Unless Faye's anime outfit is too offensive to the eyes.
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Dec 14, 2021 19:15
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JazzFlight posted:And even that was paraphrased and presented as a quote. Relevant part of his real quote: still lol. they were indeed right
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Dec 14, 2021 22:23
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Arc Hammer posted:You could always get her to watch the original show. She got a bias against animation, its dumb but I can't overcome that prejudice. I think we've watched a few, I sure hoped it would inspire her to want to watch the OG all the way through.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:59
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Divorced from the anime, this found it's groove if it's groove was a mid 2000s low budget SyFy show filmed in Australia aping Farscape and Firefly. Not great, kind of pointless to make, core trio was good when they were allowed to be new characters. Vicious was an awful trainwreck of a decision and I look forward to future fan edits that cut him out almost completely.
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Dec 15, 2021 02:18
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I will say, the clip of Big Shots where Judy has a hard "Holy poo poo" response to the bomb footage was a style they really could've used more often. Really sold that everyone was playing a bit but there was more to them than the personas they were presenting. Shame about the rest of the mess.
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Dec 15, 2021 02:33
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I'm 5 episodes in and I like Vicious' actor just letting himself loose and hamming it up, even if his entire story is loving terrible. The "banter" that Spike and Jet makes Spike seem like a rear end in a top hat more than anything and goddamn is Faye sucking the fun out of things when she's on screen, thought all that is purely the writing cause the acting is pretty drat good. I read a review blurb somewhere that said that the Netflix adaption made a cartoon out of CB and the more I watch, the more that rings true in my head.
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Dec 15, 2021 10:39
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Archer666 posted:. The "banter" that Spike and Jet makes Spike seem like a rear end in a top hat more than anything 100% this. He vascillates from crotchety old man to whiny sullen teenager, often in the same conversation. It's not Cho's fault, he does his best with the material, but so much of the dialogue feels like rough pass first draft material.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:13
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I feel like a constant problem with this show is that they'll sacrifice characters and moments for jokes. When you do that, you end up with this version of Spike. In the anime, he was a play on the man with no name - a wandering drifter who came into your life and tried to set things right. In the anime... he... takes care of himself I guess? I think the shootout in the church highlights all the problems with tone that the show has. We have Faye saying something painfully bad, we have weird music scoring choices (you know, high stakes shootout being set to jaunty upbeat jazz). The whole thing just feels off. And then the writers have Spike go back, as if they realized "wait, we need to do that scene everyone loves from Ballad of Fallen Angels!" Except none of it works when Vicious is literally a doughy middle aged guy who is about as menacing as James Corbett on a bad day.
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Dec 15, 2021 14:37
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The fight in the bathroom early on is actually pretty cool. Brightly lit, creative choreo, nice impacts. Sensible use of slowmo. The cuts and rhythm are pretty unremarkable but it's easily understandable and just solid all round. (Maybe the music is a little much.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErsqDIVQwno This is why I'm kinda sad they didn't get a second chance.
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Dec 15, 2021 14:58
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Cemetry Gator posted:
For being such an iconic moment the whole green bird / fall sequenced played like poo poo and was filmed even worse. In the anime, it's the immediate end of their fight. Spike's almost emotionless in his fall, just looking up and remembering julia, his friendship with vicious, his time as a member of the syndicate, all intercut with the grenade reveal showing that even when beaten Spike had that final hurrah. This fall messes him up and he ends up being rescued and left in a full body cast for a while. In the show? It's an emotional betrayal where he's... screaming as he falls from being shot by Julia into the water. The flashbacks are played the same except there's no payoff in the present and none of the cuts are reveals. It's what we just saw in the prior episode. There's no revelation, there's nothing to get from it. It's just... a thing they did because the anime did without regards of why the anime did it. This fall just slightly inconveniences him and he manages to swim back to shore and walk back to the ship as if this was just a minor occurrence to him.
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Dec 15, 2021 15:02
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the tv show was bad, just poorly made, poorly paced, poorly written, looked the part but thats not enough, mind you, the anime had its low points too, for every great episode in the original theres 1 thats a snoozefest; Ganymede Elegy and Black Dog Serenade are particular lows
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Dec 15, 2021 15:16
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:For being such an iconic moment the whole green bird / fall sequenced played like poo poo and was filmed even worse... This is the sort of stuff that really make me say it was Bebop made by people who didn't understand Bebop. They were trying way too hard to crowbar Joss Wheadonisms and BAD GUY DRAMA in to a show that originally had neither. Like, that vagueness of the characters past was always intentional in the show. It's all jazz themes and as the saying goes, it's about the notes that aren't being played too. The show runner didn't want to make Bebop, he wanted to make Firefly but worse. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 15:52
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Pretty much. Like if I had to explain the show I would say it was made by a group of people that were hired to make a Cowboy Bebop live action adaptation by Netflix, and by zero people that actually wanted to make a Cowboy Bebop live action adaptation. It's like they had a checklist of things they had to do, and they filled space with rando stuff they were actually interested in, and the two parts had nothing to do with each other.
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Dec 15, 2021 16:09
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JollyBoyJohn posted:the tv show was bad, just poorly made, poorly paced, poorly written, looked the part but thats not enough, mind you, the anime had its low points too, for every great episode in the original theres 1 thats a snoozefest; Ganymede Elegy and Black Dog Serenade are particular lows the only bebop episode that comes within the same zip code as “bad” is Boogie Woogie Feng Shui. every other one is its own breed of classic, and Black Dog Serenade especially is among the best
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Dec 15, 2021 16:35
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JollyBoyJohn posted:the tv show was bad, just poorly made, poorly paced, poorly written, looked the part but thats not enough, mind you, the anime had its low points too, for every great episode in the original theres 1 thats a snoozefest; Ganymede Elegy and Black Dog Serenade are particular lows Wasn't a big fan of Sympathy for the Devil myself. That and the Feng Shui episode were the low points for me. Elegy and Serenade I dug cause they went hard into noir compared to the other eps.
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Dec 15, 2021 16:42
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yeah sympathy for the devil is a kind of boring one. honestly there are several boring episodes of bebop, not in the sense that nothing happens just that none of it matters and isn't interesting on its own. the second half is stronger than the first half. part of this is by design though since the show starts off with two depressed men doing random jobs they don't care about and it grows outwards from there, but it does make about 1/3 of the series comparatively uninteresting. i remember the first time i watched it, for the first four episodes or so i really didn't give a poo poo. i think the first episode that really connected for me was waltz for venus and from there it clicked. in retrospect i also like gateway shuffle, the one with the ecoterrorists, but first time i just shrugged. roomtone fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 16:46
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roomtone posted:yeah sympathy for the devil is a kind of boring one. I think the second half is stronger too just because a lot of things are heading to a conclusion. At the beginning of the show, Spike and Jet are living in stasis. They don't make much money. They don't have much in the way of prospects. In the end, Spike isn't able to help out Asimov and Katerina. But we see something different about him - he's not just interested in the bounty, but he has concern and compassion for these people. As the show goes on, we see Spike's world being shaken up. First, Ein comes on board, and then he finds Faye tagging along. In the light of these two big disruptions to his routine, we get ballad of the fallen angels, where we get the first real glimpse into Spike's past and we learn more about who he was before the show began. Someone wants him dead. The next few episodes show us more of the characters getting into their new groove. They allow us to see more of who these characters are, and flesh out the characters by putting them into conflict with each other and their targets. As an aside, Netflix seems to think that fleshing a character out is just providing more details on their back story. Then we get to Jamming With Edward - and we've further shake up the order. Ed is a child who is definitely annoying to be around. Spike has to deal with change, and he doesn't like it. In a way, it contrasts him with Jet - sure, Jet is a little more uptight, but he goes with the flow more than "Be Like Water" Spike. We get our first glimpse into Jet's backstory with Ganymede Elegy, which allows us to better understand why he acts the way he does. Then we get to the most impactful part of the show. Where poo poo starts to become real, and the characters conflicts come to the front. There's no going back. I'm talking of course about Toys in the Attic. After that, we get Jupiter Jazz, and it's here where the series ends it's first half. Spike is in a completely different place, and now the show starts putting new stress on the characters. Faye runs away, and this gives us a glimpse into the brassy femme fatale, and we see her in a more emotionally vulnerable state. She lets her guard down. We also learn more about Julia, Spike, and Vicious. We get an episode dealing with a chess player as a palate cleanser, and then we start diving into Faye's backstory more. Up until the finale - we get two types of episodes. Those that explore Faye, Jet, and Edward and their past, and the fun adventures. One we've gotten a chance to understand all three and where they came from, we get the finale. The first half is about shaking things up. The second half is about the past rising back up to the present. What arc do we get with Netflix?
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Dec 15, 2021 18:53
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I initially thought it was cool that they tried to explain Vicious's terrible name by making it seem like he and Spike had cool Syndicate codenames. Then I laughed towards the end of the season when I finally realized that they probably weren't codenames, and Netflix just straight up gave us characters named Vicious and Fearless. The "blackmail" clip has been circulating lately as an example of cringeworthy dialog in the show. Is it actually, though? I thought the whole point of that scene was that the horned-up old lady kept saying things that embarrassed Jet in front of Spike. I thought she was fun and one of the few things I actually liked in the show.
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Dec 15, 2021 20:47
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The chase sequence in ganymede elegy is one of the early emotional high points in the show and had fantastic music
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Dec 15, 2021 20:47
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Professor Wayne posted:The "blackmail" clip has been circulating lately as an example of cringeworthy dialog in the show. Is it actually, though? I thought the whole point of that scene was that the horned-up old lady kept saying things that embarrassed Jet in front of Spike. I thought she was fun and one of the few things I actually liked in the show.
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Dec 15, 2021 21:11
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void_serfer posted:That bit is actually terrible and harmful because it's plays the fetishism of black men as a joke. It's also not funny and clumsily written. Not funny and clumsily written can describe a lot of the dialog. "Your ex-wife told me to throw you a bone now and then." Ah yes, theank you for establishing that Jet was once married to an apparently nameless woman!
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Dec 15, 2021 21:20
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void_serfer posted:That bit is actually terrible and harmful because it's plays the fetishism of black men as a joke. Yeah that's not great
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Dec 15, 2021 21:36
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Like, even in the context of the show, him saying blackmail is clumsy. He could've said something else to a similar effect (like extortion, or something). He says that word so they could follow up with that trash.
void_serfer fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 21:42
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I just watched Episode 9 and I have no idea how they thought this was a good idea. The FEARLESS nickname for Spike was already cringe so they decide to make an episode where it gets said 20x times and put front and center? I'm aghast! The entire episode just doesn't work. I will put my complaints in spoilers:
tldr: the writers are bad, they hosed everything up, most of their decisions were bad, and they bloated a tight story into something unwatchable Jerkface fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 21:52
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The video review someone posted a few pages back nailed it perfectly, in the anime you only thing you learn about vicious is that he's good at 2 things - katana murder and betrayal. It's all you need to know about him. What mattered to the plot wasn't his personality or his plans or his past, but the emotions he evokes in spike. Apparently the TV show needed to explicitly spell out that while vicious is good at katana murder and betrayal, he's apparently loving awful at everything else. They would of been better off getting a weedy professional stunt swordsman and just literally never had him speak and he would of been 1000% better.
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Dec 15, 2021 22:04
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Was the Monkey Punchy rum a strained Lupin III reference?
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Dec 16, 2021 06:21
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Professor Wayne posted:Was the Monkey Punchy rum a strained Lupin III reference? It has to be. Hell in the original show during the Green Bird montage Spike pills a Lupin grin.
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Dec 16, 2021 06:52
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