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P-Mack posted:I don't need realism, the fight was stagey but fine but also could have been a third of the length and gotten the same point across imo. I suppose this is technically true, but one could argue that its not because the point was "The Aiel are the baddest motherfuckers ever, including the women. Oh, you think you know how bad they are? No, no, let me show you. You think you know now? YOU'RE WRONG, HAVE SOME MORE!"
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Dec 17, 2021 17:54
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roomtone posted:This comeback has become a cliche. I'm not defending the whole 'the swordplay was unrealistic' bit, because who cares, but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying a fight scene broke your suspension of disbelief in a fantasy show. Just because something also features magic doesn't mean absolutely nothing matters and anybody who thinks 'eh this doesn't feel real/earned' is an enraged misogynist. i'm going to make fun of it purely on the merits of it being funny to do so when discussing a show about this book series in particular where someone has already had multiple dragonball z powerup moments
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Dec 17, 2021 17:55
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th3t00t posted:There's a big difference between saying you would have preferred more realistic fight scenes and coming in hot like some incel youtube weapons master laying down the law about spear fighting. Yeah that's fair - it's hard to predict how criticism will be received vs. what you intend with it. I like the av change 
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Dec 17, 2021 17:55
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As a meager attempt to derail this discussion, I'd like to point out that the Everyday Negroes did a discussion a few days ago (before the latest episode) with the (I'm assuming) official Wheel of Time Aftershow, where they talked about the show and their reaction videos taking off for 2 hours. I've only watched about 30 minutes of it so far, but it was fun if you like them and a few people have mentioned them in the thread, so it seems like something a few people here might enjoy.
tsob fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 17:57
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Sanguinia posted:Lol, are we really having a Sword Fight Realism argument? the reason for the veil not covering her face was because actors want to show their faces to get recognition. the same thing happens with helmets etc. we'll probably get to see some rank and file extras with covered faces, but even supporting cast will have bare faces
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Dec 17, 2021 17:59
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there was also context given in an earlier episode where thom talked about the aiel and said that one with their veil down is basically not intending to attack or kill anyone, and it highlighted how the dead one in that cage hadn't had their's up so it was basically an honorless slaughter of someone who meant no harm. the aiel lady at the start of this episode was like very clearly trying to get away because she was going into labor but a bunch of knights jumped her anyways.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:02
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"Realism" aside, I guess what most people are saying is that the fight scene is not great. The fight against the red guards in The Last Jedi is bad even if there are space wizards in the movie, but a professional Hollywood stuntman/fight coordinator can explain this better than me (5min 19s if the timestamp doesn't work). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL83p4GxAvw&t=319s In case you can't or don't want to watch the video: it's bad because the coreography can't cash the checks the screenwriters signed. In particular, in the case of the SW scene, the problem is that the actors are not stuntmen and the scene is very complicated, so the stuntmen have to "do nothing" most of the fight to wait for the actors to get to their marks. On top of that, the way the scene is shot accentuates the problem cause the awkward pauses are there for everyone to see, very clearly. This fight also suffers from the same problems and would also be bad if it was in a big budget Hollywood movie, but since it's in a big budget series not centered around martial arts it's ok.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:02
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Also didn't she start with it up and it got pulled down during the fight?
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Dec 17, 2021 18:03
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Gaz-L posted:Also didn't she start with it up and it got pulled down during the fight? she pulls it down when she thinks she's away from the fight and safe and doesn't put it back on while being ambushed and in labor
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Dec 17, 2021 18:05
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It really wasn’t a great fight scene for the reasons listed.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:06
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That Italian Guy posted:"Realism" aside, I guess what most people are saying is that the fight scene is not great. The fight against the red guards in The Last Jedi is bad even if there are space wizards in the movie, but a professional Hollywood stuntman/fight coordinator can explain this better than me This thread is the only place I could find people not liking the scene is in this thread. The reactions/reviews/comments I've seen seem to like it. The only thing I could find people not liking is that the scene feels out of place, and not necessary for the story.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:07
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eke out posted:she pulls it down when she thinks she's away from the fight and safe and doesn't put it back on while being ambushed and in labor Yes, it was this. And also my only point is that she COULD have put it back on without it damaging the scene. There was no good reason for her to keep it off. So if she kept it off for something as basic as: ChubbyChecker posted:the reason for the veil not covering her face was because actors want to show their faces to get recognition. the same thing happens with helmets etc. we'll probably get to see some rank and file extras with covered faces, but even supporting cast will have bare faces Then that would suck.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:07
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yeah that's fair - it's hard to predict how criticism will be received vs. what you intend with it. I like the av change
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Dec 17, 2021 18:09
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Here's my blanket statement that I assert is now fact, it was good and showed how the Aiel fight and how they outclass even elite fighters of the Westlands, such as the Companions who are the King of Illian's personal bodyguards.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:09
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Sanguinia posted:And also my only point is that she COULD have put it back on without it damaging the scene. i think there's very little non-spoiler discussion to be had here, viewers know nothing about the Aiel except that Thom mentioned that they put veils on if they're gonna kill you
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Dec 17, 2021 18:09
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I'm gonna jump in and say the fight scene loving ruled. It was great because it made me get pumped up and also told a story about this woman desperately trying to survive for her baby without any words spoken. Then it all ties into Tam/Rand and tells you about their character and growth together.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:10
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Ubiquitus posted:It really wasn’t a great fight scene for the reasons listed. It really was a great and cool fight scene.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:11
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Since The Witcher got mentioned before, I think this scene from S1E1 shows a good way to convey "superhuman has a fight with regular dudes with swords" way better. It conveys the advantage in speed, strenght and precision Geralt has over his opponents by using camera and editing to fill the gaps the actor (that is not super human) inevitably has (37s in if the timestamp doesn't work). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuE1glBpaGs&t=37s
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Dec 17, 2021 18:11
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That Italian Guy posted:Since The Witcher got mentioned before, I think this scene from S1E1 shows a good way to convey "superhuman has a fight with regular dudes with swords" way better. It conveys the advantage in speed, strenght and precision Geralt has over his opponents by using camera and editing to fill the gaps the actor (that is not super human) inevitably has (37s in if the timestamp doesn't work). Do u think The Witcher would beat an Aiel in a fight?
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Dec 17, 2021 18:12
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How are u posted:Do u think The Witcher would beat an Aiel in a fight? No contest, Aiel don't have supernatural powers.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:14
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Sanguinia posted:Yes, it was this. the last duel film has some particularly silly examples: 
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Dec 17, 2021 18:14
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I just rewatched it here and it still stands up. The bit with her just running straight past the sword to grab the cloak at the beginning is a bit stupid, but we see lots of other good stuff like cuts mostly on limbs and stabs at torso (how you should use a spear) using the spear as a quaterstaff when needed (again, good and historically accurate) and the grapple at the end (the dagger disarm isn't perfect, but it is a actual move, even if the pulling the dagger out of you isn't really). So yea, there's lots good to it, even if the 2/3 v 1 and deflecting... slings? throwning axes? with her spears is a bit wierd.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:16
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How are u posted:Do u think The Witcher would beat an Aiel in a fight? With or without prep time?
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Dec 17, 2021 18:16
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That Italian Guy posted:Since The Witcher got mentioned before, I think this scene from S1E1 shows a good way to convey "superhuman has a fight with regular dudes with swords" way better. It conveys the advantage in speed, strenght and precision Geralt has over his opponents by using camera and editing to fill the gaps the actor (that is not super human) inevitably has (37s in if the timestamp doesn't work). Okay, this video is used as an example to show "how it should be done" when it does the whole "20 bad guys come at the hero 1 at a time" thing that is being applied to the Blood Snow. Which is funny because the one thing that Blood Snow did way better than this scene is by not doing the whole "Everyone comes at the hero 1 at a time".
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Dec 17, 2021 18:17
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How are u posted:Do u think The Witcher would beat an Aiel in a fight? If you don't have an absurdly skilled crew and you shoot a 3-4 v 1, you either do a lovely shaky cam job that hides the gaps in the performance (like the terrible "Queen Maeve trains with 3 dudes" scene from The Boys), you have the "enemies come at the hero 1 at a time, but try to hide it with camera movement" (like the one in the Witcher clip above) or you shoot it earnestly and show the gaps (like the one in WoT or most of the GoT fights). CainFortea posted:Okay, this video is used as an example to show "how it should be done" when it does the whole "20 bad guys come at the hero 1 at a time" thing that is being applied to the Blood Snow. Which is funny because the one thing that Blood Snow did way better than this scene is by not doing the whole "Everyone comes at the hero 1 at a time". As mentioned before, though, you need someone with incredible preparation and skills to fight off multiple enemies at the same time and not look like bad; or you need to hide everything with a ton of edit. You can do the first if you have someone like Jackie Chan, or you could do the second and get a messy shakycam scene. Alternatively you can have some decent stuntmen and choreography and shoot it earnestly and have a so-and-so result because your actors are not Jackie Chan and pals, like in the Blood Snow. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 18:17
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Doublepost!
That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 18:23
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That Italian Guy posted:This is true. Henry Cavil is not Jackie Chan, so they use tricks to make him look better than he is at martial arts. It shows that they showrunner knew what they could get away with (good 1v1 fights) and stuck with that. I mean, I'm of a different opinion. I just found it funny how a couple of people are talking about those Companions "running away" when it actually did that part extremely well. And then we have an example of a show actually doing it.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:26
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That Italian Guy posted:"Realism" aside, I guess what most people are saying is that the fight scene is not great. "Most" means a majority of people. There was some honest-to-god crossing of arms below the breasts in this episode. Also lol at Moiraine siccing the Red Ajah on Mat. drat Moiraine chill zoux fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 18:29
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^^^^EDIT: sorry, what I meant with that is "most of the people itt that are not positive about the scene are saying it's not great instead of saying it's super bad", not "most people are saying the scene is not great" in general.CainFortea posted:I mean, I'm of a different opinion. I just found it funny how a couple of people are talking about those Companions "running away" when it actually did that part extremely well. And then we have an example of a show actually doing it. Amazon is blocking all screen recording and there aren't any scenes online on youtube yet, but there are a couple of instances where the choreography shows its weak points. There is a scene at around 2.47 where one of the enemies swings at the Aiel's back and misses; then there is a cut to a wide shot and we can see him suddenly stop and backpedal - which wouldn't be a problem if not for the choice of cutting to a wide shot. We then have two back to back scenes where the scene cuts away from the wide shot to show the Aiel fightning against one of the opponents (the helmetless one first, then the helmeted one) and both times the wide shot cuts away with the other enemy right next to the Aiel and then "disappearing" from the fight until the next beat where the Aiel fights them. Most of these things are quite common in non super dedicated media (hell, there is famouse blooper with a mook in a Nolan Batman movie that suddenly gets knocked down by thin air). The thing is...fight scenes are usually boring, at least for me, unless they are emotionally charged (and while the "protagonist" in the scene is a pregnant woman, we don't really know who she is yet) or unless they are exceptionally well made or unique. So the choice to dedicate 4 minutes of a very time constrained TV show to an average fight is debatable. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Dec 17, 2021 |
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Dec 17, 2021 18:44
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zoux posted:Also lol at Moiraine siccing the Red Ajah on Mat. drat Moiraine chill To be fair, Moiraine at that point was concerned that Mat might be the Dragon, in which case the Red Ajah would be the most capable of handling him. But if Mat can’t channel (if the darkness Moiraine mentioned isn’t the Dark One’s taint) and the Reds try to gentle him anyway, what happens?
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Dec 17, 2021 18:47
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Some positive feedback on the fight scene to balance the negative points I've raised before: I liked how armor seems to be (at least partially) protecting the enemies and how the Aiel goes for the leather/unprotected parts instead of just cutting through plate like it's butter like in 99% of the rest of the genre.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:50
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That Italian Guy posted:The thing is...fight scenes are usually boring, at least for me, unless they are emotionally charged (and while the "protagonist" in the scene is a pregnant woman, we don't really know who she is yet) or unless they are exceptionally well made or unique. So the choice to dedicate 4 minutes of a very time constrained TV show to an average fight is debatable. Maybe not emotionally charged for you, sure. My non book reading gf was like "oh poo poo she's pregnant" and "is that Rand's mom?" and that was all she needed.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:50
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That Italian Guy posted:Since The Witcher got mentioned before, I think this scene from S1E1 shows a good way to convey "superhuman has a fight with regular dudes with swords" way better. It conveys the advantage in speed, strenght and precision Geralt has over his opponents by using camera and editing to fill the gaps the actor (that is not super human) inevitably has (37s in if the timestamp doesn't work). So, here's my problem with this. I like the fight. Henry Cavil knows what he's doing, he's got good sense of timing, and absolutely sells the 'supernatural badass swordsman' concept 100 %. What makes this fight supremely silly for me is not the 1-v-1 fighting, or whatever, it's that for some ungodly reason they had him reverse-grip the sword. Don't get me wrong, it looks cool, the fight is fun and brutal and well-paced and really entertaining to watch, but the reverse grip is just... It's just so bad, because it is denying you the main benefit of a sword, or, hell, any hand-held melee-weapon: Extra reach. I mean, I get that the point is to show that Geralt is so badass he doesn't need that advantage but... I'm sorry, it's still silly. Entertaining, absolutely. But silly. FLIPADELPHIA posted:
The video linked here, however, is pretty damned legit. I haven't done much longsword, but that fight is real, real good from a realism standpoint, and what "Hollywood" elements are in there are for obvious safety reasons and because you can't actually finish most of the moves they're showing off, because they are meant to kill your opponent stone loving dead.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:50
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The speed ramps showing at least two scenes of a spear hitting armor then slowly pushing through it had some major Dune slow-blade vibes (that funny enough is a better effect that any of the fights in the new movie).
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Dec 17, 2021 18:51
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El Grillo posted:I dunno. I think in a big high fantasy series like this, you're better off either leaving things super vague (like LOTR or the magic stuff in GoT) or you actually need to get into the detailed mechanics for how all the magic and stuff actually works. If you're somewhere in between, it comes of as pulpy Marvel-type handwaving. There's no depth to it. But if you actually get into the mechanics of how the One Power works in the books, and all the accoutrements to that, it becomes quite compelling and immersive (immersive for what it is, anyway). I have read a collossal amount of fantasy, and I have never once enjoyed a detailed explanation of how magic works. I believe a TV audience would enjoy an explanation even less.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:55
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How are u posted:Maybe not emotionally charged for you, sure. My non book reading gf was like "oh poo poo she's pregnant" and "is that Rand's mom?" and that was all she needed.
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Dec 17, 2021 18:59
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That Italian Guy posted:Oh yeah absolutely, that is definitely something subjective. What I'm saying is "I don't usually enjoy fight that I don't find emotionally charged, unless they are extraordinary for some other reason". I'm ready to cut a lot more slack to a scene that I find emotionally charged even if the choreography or the editing is not super good. And this is why the absolutely perfect fencing-scene is Wesley vs. Inigo Montoya in the Princess Bride. I'm not even joking. That fight-scene is pure faff and I'll still argue it's one of the best duels ever put to film.
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Dec 17, 2021 19:01
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I have read a collossal amount of fantasy, and I have never once enjoyed a detailed explanation of how magic works. I believe a TV audience would enjoy an explanation even less. I always prefer to have magic explained because things like Shannarah or LotR are annoying. I want to know why stuff works. I believe TV audiences would enjoy an explanation even more.
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Dec 17, 2021 19:04
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I have read a collossal amount of fantasy, and I have never once enjoyed a detailed explanation of how magic works. I believe a TV audience would enjoy an explanation even less. if it's explained it just becomes star trek's technobabble
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Dec 17, 2021 19:05
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This show won't be good until they suspend the finale so Moiraine can deliver a 30 minute to-camera lecture of the intricacies of weaving the One Power
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Dec 17, 2021 19:06
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