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ZShakespeare)
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Remember when Omicron was first discovered and Elliott said they weren’t going to introduce any new measures or restrictions and would take a “wait and see approach”? Good times.quote:But Elliott said it's too early to decide whether to reintroduce any provincewide public health restrictions, or pause plans to further ease measures in January. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 18, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2021 05:47
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Lady in distress in my lobby this morning says she was robbed and wants me to call the police. Somehow out of all the 911 operators and police officers involved I'm the only one trying to de-escalate and calm her down so she stays put and doesn't freeze outside because she's clearly out of it. Cops show up an hour and a half later and one of the first things they say to her is "how high and drunk are you right now?" and expressing to me that they don't really care if she does run off into the cold. Anyone wanna guess her ethnicity?
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Dec 18, 2021 16:19
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"How high and drunk are you?" gently caress you pig that's totally irrelevant.
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Dec 18, 2021 16:39
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Next to getting a location and situation, de-escalation is one of the most important tasks for 911 operators. Unfortunately a lot of them share the same beliefs and social circles as cops. I'm sorry you got a lovely one.
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Dec 18, 2021 18:04
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"Answering the effin phone" is another important one. In Ottawa, the 911 dispatch is run by the police, so if they're full-up, guess who's waiting on hold for an ambulance? And of course there's no other number you can call, you just get to wait in a queue while someone who just popped an infarct bleeds those precious minutes away in front of you EvilJoven posted:"How high and drunk are you?" gently caress you pig that's totally irrelevant. When the question's phrased like that you can bet it's not coming from a place where it might be. Someone who's visibly out of it might have trouble making an admissible statement, or could need medical help, but finding those things out takes compassion and foresight. That other thing just takes a racist bastard
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Dec 18, 2021 18:30
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theres 1 911 operator here that is a complete rear end in a top hat i remember i got her once on a pocket dial and she kept me on the phone for over a minute interrogating me why i pocket dialed her. i was like i dont loving know just get me the gently caress off the call so you aren't tied up. she wouldnt loving let up then like 8 months later i was in a situation that i actually needed to call 911 and got the same goddamn person. She basically called me a liar and said the cops couldnt come. it was insane. and yes they work at the police station and are essentially cops.
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Dec 18, 2021 18:32
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We got one 911 operator fired. My step dad wasn't feeling well so my mom called 911 because he was unresponsive and turning blue. On the call, they were like just give him some Orange Juice and drive him yourself if there is an issue don't waste our time. Shes busy trying to call my stepbrothers who moved out. I ended up just taking over the phone and called 911, got the same lady again, I'm like I don't give a poo poo send someone down we'll pay for fines or whatever if it ends up being poo poo the dude ain't moving and we can't get him out. His heart stopped in the ambulance. We got a letter saying the supervisor put in a complaint and she was summarily dismissed, the call log was reviewed and we were right to say what we did and an apology from the chief 911 head or whatever. The step dad sucked, but also make sure you have one person doing all your prescriptions, this was a blood pressure medication being super charged by an anti-nausea medication that was a common conflict that didn't get caught, it basically made the body's blood pressure so low that the heart stopped. apatheticman fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 18, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2021 18:45
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While we're sharing cop stories, my most recent encounter was fairly minor but still. Someone died outside my apartment building, the corpse was lying covered on the ground. Cops were standing around, naturally tenants were curious as to what happened and some approached to ask the cops about it and got "BACK AWAY! BACK AWAY FROM THE SCENE!" screaming rage responses from this one clearly roided up freak cop, instead of anyone responding like a normal person. No way to know about hypotheticals for sure, but I wonder if the rest of them would have let him scream away like an rear end in a top hat at citizens if this was in a suburban area with the right sort of people instead of a low income neighbourhood high rise.
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Dec 18, 2021 19:19
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acumen posted:Next to getting a location and situation, de-escalation is one of the most important tasks for 911 operators. Unfortunately a lot of them share the same beliefs and social circles as cops. I'm sorry you got a lovely one. I used to do ISP call center work which involved taking escalations so I was shocked at how he seemed to be doing everything possible to get the woman worked up. Like yeah she's incoherent and upset but Jesus you need to be able to deal with that with some empathy, not just pressing her for more and more details when she's freaking out about her kids or whatever. I was trying to like talk to her about her kids and where she's from to calm her down and wait and she was showing me pictures and stuff, but the operator would then just wind her up again trying to get a more detailed description of whoever attacked her even after she said multiple times her glasses are broken and she can't see anything. She eventually got fed up with the dude, gave me my friend's phone back and started walking; her address was across town so when I saw her freezing on a snowbank crying I told her I'd give her a ride since my car was right there; cabs have a real bad track record with indigenous women here. She said she'd pay for gas and I was almost empty so I drove there to stall for time until the cops arrived (she got me the tax exemption but obviously I didn't let her pay). Police finally showed up after another half hour and they absolutely did not want to be there. Yeah she's clearly hosed up and now thinks I'm a taxi driver, but don't fuckin' call her a junkie to her face for Christ's sake. They also seemed pissed that I called 911 multiple times to update them on our location. Thankfully the woman I kept getting was much more empathetic. I really hope they didn't just dump her on the street somewhere since it's -20C. The cop saying who cares if she walks off into the frozen night was super gross because of, well, you know.
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Dec 18, 2021 20:54
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I mean, it may be screaming into the void, but would it be worth filing an official complaint? That sounds like they were actively trying to get this woman killed. https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cont/faq-comp-plainte-eng.htm https://www.gov.mb.ca/justice/lera/complaint/index.html
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Dec 18, 2021 21:05
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Many 911 operators are in the process of/attempting to/the result of sleeping with a cop and it's not unusual to get terrible candidates who possess little to no compassion for members of the public, especially the marginalized. I'd hate to derail any further but it's been a consistent source of frustration at work that I've been struggling with for a while. Unfortunately being unionized it's really difficult to give someone the boot for simply being a jerk, though if someone's actions led to a loss or harm to life then it's absolutely worth filing a complaint. Probably won't go anywhere, but everything is recorded and it's worth a shot.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:47
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Do cops suck just as much in countries that have a better social safety apparatus or is this unique to North America breeding a particularly lovely law enforcement community?
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Dec 18, 2021 22:06
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Cops in France seem to suck pretty bad
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Dec 18, 2021 22:16
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NA does seem to breed a particular brand of shittiness but we don't have a monopoly on it Scandinavian ones seem to be the best. Japanese cops are timid and indolent and won't lift a finger unless the case comes with a big red button that says PUSH TO SOLVE, and a person to push it You could probably meet people with Some Stories To Tell about the Gardai, but talk was that they were among the most-accountable
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Dec 18, 2021 22:20
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Canada has the most corrupt police in the world actually
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Dec 18, 2021 22:27
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Poodlebear posted:Canada has the most corrupt police in the world actually All the second hand experiences I've had with Canadian cops have been poo poo. Either A) You get accused of something you didn't do (usually by an employer or building security) and the cops just railroad you into a guilty verdict because fighting the case could be much worse for you and the public defender doesn't have the time of day for you. B) You suffer a home invasion and they do nothing to resolve it C)You had a B&E and even if you submit credible evidence including persons of interest that were responsible, absolutely nothing is done about it. D) I've heard of cops responding to a criminal complaint by a trans person and then the cops basically show up, ignore the complaint and start shaking down the trans person instead. Searching their home and asking questions as if the complainant was the guilty party. E)There was an active serial killer who targeted gay people in the village in Toronto and hid their bodies in planters as a part of his landscaping business. It was well known this was going on but the cops didn't investigate until public outcry reached the media. THEN they caught him. It's the same old poo poo where if you aren't rich, then the justice system isn't meant for you. The only difference in Canada is that rather than black people, it's natives who are overrepresented in the prison system. Over 50% of all women incarcerated in Canada right now are native for example. The usual stuff about socio-economic status and personal connections applies when it comes to legal proceedings. If you've been arrested you loving better know the right people so when you call, someone can arrange a good lawyer for you. If neither your family nor friends want anything to do with you after a criminal proceeding has been introduced against you then you're hosed. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 18, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2021 23:00
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I'm a white Canadian city-dweller so I am fortunate to have only really interacted with police once: when I was about 16 and we were setting off fireworks in a snow-packed dry pond on new years eve. Some cops walked up and we thought we were in trouble but actually they were just wondering if we'd seen anyone in handcuffs go running by because somebody had escaped from the back of their van. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hope the guy got away
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Dec 18, 2021 23:12
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I have a family member with mental health issues so over the years I’ve needed to call police a lot, in different parts of Ontario as well as Nova Scotia. Maybe I had the luck of running into the only good ones in the country, but they were without exception empathetic, fair and professional. I owe my family member’s life to one young officer, who went out of his way to find my contact information and reach out to me at work. He arranged all sorts of resources for us that I had no idea existed in the community I was new to. I’ll never forget this kid. Anyway I’m an immigrant to this country though so maybe I have a different perspective but it seems like police here are generally pretty good compared to the rest of the world and our entire human history?
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Dec 18, 2021 23:25
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Let me ask the question nobody wants to ask: are you an immigrant, or are you an immigrant
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Dec 18, 2021 23:40
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Bleck posted:Let me ask the question nobody wants to ask: are you an immigrant, or are you an immigrant You can just say "how white are you?", it's okay.
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Dec 18, 2021 23:42
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Oh there are absolutely good people who want to do good things; I was one myself and I met lots of others. It truly is rewarding to meet someone in crisis and show them a small part of one way to limit their suffering. Thing is though, the institution as a whole is there to reinforce the racism and classism that our society was founded on, and the shitters who run the show lean into it because they honestly believe they're doing right. if you stay part of that system long enough, it's far more likely to change you than you are to change it; it wasn't until I was out that I got a good look at where I was headed. I'd wager that a good percentage of attrition is from decent people who see what they're becoming and just can't do that to people anymore.
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Dec 18, 2021 23:47
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Here's what I'd like to know. Lets say you really did do something wrong. Maybe you thought it would be a good idea to sell drugs because it was easy money or someone pushed you too far and you beat the poo poo out of them so you got slapped with an assault and battery charge. Maybe you thought credit card fraud would help you get out of poverty and you did some criminal conspiracy poo poo to rack up dough. After you do your time... what happens then? Are you forever branded as a convict and unable to rebuild your life? I used to date a parole officer once and she told me the vast majority of her "clients" will wind up back in the house sooner or later and that this was just an unfortunate part of the job.
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Dec 19, 2021 00:04
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A twenty-minute chat with someone from the John Howard Society would be worth more than a whole page of replies to that question, but the short answer is "pretty much, yeah".
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Dec 19, 2021 00:15
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I have no doubt the institution of policing grinds these people’s souls into dust. Forcing people to seek out and confront the worst in humanity for 45 hours a week will do that to you. Maybe we should pay them less, and shame them more?
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Dec 19, 2021 00:21
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ACAB of course, but out of all the cops I had dealings with, Vancouver PD were the worst, followed by Ottawa and then lastly Victoria (who actually seemed to give a poo poo about my meth-addled, mentally ill neighbour). Part of me wonders if it's something about having a gun though - I lived in the UK until I was 23 and the cops there seemed to have a lot less of the 'us and them' mentality and seemed more like human beings. The interactions were so different.
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Dec 19, 2021 00:23
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Poodlebear posted:I have no doubt the institution of policing grinds these people’s souls into dust. Forcing people to seek out and confront the worst in humanity for 45 hours a week will do that to you. Maybe we should pay them less, and shame them more? Maybe we should ensure that the institutions that are entrusted to enforce the law and have authority to use violence to enact their mandate, are themselves held accountable to the law? Just a thought. Seems like maybe we could address a significant number of "systemic" issues starting there. Another thing we could do is stop using the police in situations where a social worker is needed. Stop sending people who are armed to deal with wellness checks and mental health crises. This too, might address a significant number of issue we find identified repeatedly. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 00:25
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Is that what our courts are for? Or are the judges complicit too? It’s the system, man edit: ACAB obviously tho please don’t probate Poodlebear fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 00:31
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infernal machines posted:Maybe we should ensure that the institutions that are entrusted to enforce the law and have authority to use violence to enact their mandate, are themselves held accountable to the law? Just a thought. Yeah, it's this. It can be similar to customer service in many situations, except in the fact that tim hortons drive-thru staff will get fired if they're being a dick or worse. Policing absolutely needs much better oversight and higher standards for the fuckups. edit: also regarding the second point, there's at least some progress in there. Some regions have mental health professionals who respond along with officers to mental health calls, and they're extremely effective. We also have crisis workers in our communication centre who we can conference in or even transfer callers over to. This diverts some - but unfortunately not yet all - mental health calls away from the uniforms (who honestly don't seem to want to attend these either). There's still a long way to go, and I've been saying for a while 911 p-psap operators should be asking "police, fire, ambulance, or mental health?" - but we seem to be heading there. acumen fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 00:35
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Alctel posted:Part of me wonders if it's something about having a gun though - I lived in the UK until I was 23 and the cops there seemed to have a lot less of the 'us and them' mentality and seemed more like human beings. The interactions were so different. You can blame Bill Parker and Dave Grossman for a lot of that poo poo. They didn't invent the ideas of equipping police with weapons of war, or that killology sheepdog bullshit, but they took it mainstream and made that sort of stuff the part that was okay to say out loud. infernal machines posted:Another thing we could do is stop using the police in situations where a social worker is needed. Stop sending people who are armed to deal with wellness checks and mental health crises. This too, might address a significant number of issue we find identified repeatedly. They trained us to do it because they were mandated to, but there was genuine surprise among the instructors on meeting the few of us who were actually good at it. It absolutely wasn't expected, and I caught hell for the few times I actually did it live. The Knapp Commission proved you can't reform a police agency in situ, or impose oversight on an agency that's already corrupt -- and they're all corrupt. The only way to truly fix it is to lay torch to the whole thing and start over. e: as if on cue, here comes yospos https://twitter.com/reveal/status/1472201316286009349 flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 00:39
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Poodlebear posted:Is that what our courts are for? Or are the judges complicit too? It’s the system, man It is, if the issue ever gets to court, and there we have a history of finding that officers' "professional judgment" trumps any kind of accountability for their actions, they have a defacto carte blanche, so long as they can claim their training led them to believe the actions they took were necessary, they were in fact necessary. This has been borne out repeatedly in the few cases where officers are charged with crimes committed in the course of duty. But far more commonly issues do not make it to the courts. We have civilian oversight of the police services, but if the police refuse to cooperate or enact their recommendations, there are no mechanisms to make them do otherwise. We have OIPRD, the SIU, and internal Professional Standards bureaus, and yet somehow less than 1% of complaints against the police result in disciplinary action. Perhaps 99% of the complaints against officers are without merit, or, seemingly more likely, the structures within the police organizations meant to hold them accountable for their actions are ineffectual to the extreme. It is "the system", and every officer in uniform is a part of that system, that's the nature of putting on a uniform. flakeloaf posted:You can blame Bill Parker and Dave Grossman for a lot of that poo poo. They didn't invent the ideas of equipping police with weapons of war, or that killology sheepdog bullshit, but they took it mainstream and made that sort of stuff the part that was okay to say out loud. I know for certain that there are officers who care about doing their job well and helping the community they serve. The problem as you've noted is that enacting systemic reform to ensure that they're the rule and not an exception is made surprisingly difficult when the organization you're trying to reform has the kind of societal power police services do. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 00:43
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infernal machines posted:It is, if the issue ever gets to court, and there we have a history of finding that officers' "professional judgment" trumps any kind of accountability for their actions, they have a defacto carte blanche, so long as they can claim their training led them to believe the actions they took were necessary, they were in fact necessary. This has been born out repeatedly in the few cases where officers are charged with crimes committed in the course of duty. Being able to articulate your force IS a powerful defense tool that needs some nerfing, but I don't know if this addresses the whole issue. You also get cops who wind up charged for something they demonstrably did not do; or the Crown doesn't bring evidence that proves the elements of the offense well-enough to make it necessary for the defense to even speak. The death of Abdirahman Abdi led to an acquittal, and the reasons are good reading. Start around paragraph 440 and follow the judge's walkthrough of how that decision-making works. The judge's reasons seem well-founded and articulate to me, and they do pay respect to the fact that acquittal is not endorsement of what happened -- but if that'd been my family member there, I could read that document aloud every single day and still be utterly convinced that the cops murdered my relative and got away with it because a court said what they did to him in that moment was okay. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 01:03
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One of my friends I was meeting up with to take hunting today deals with various city councilors and the mayor as part of his community center and he wants me to write something to get to the highest ranking person he can get in touch with. Him and the person who picked me up are both immigrants and got to learn up close how western policing treats the vulnerable.acumen posted:Yeah, it's this. It can be similar to customer service in many situations, except in the fact that tim hortons drive-thru staff will get fired if they're being a dick or worse. Policing absolutely needs much better oversight and higher standards for the fuckups. That's what gets me more than anything, I don't have any fancy skills outside of what I learned working maybe a couple steps above retail. Yeah she's being difficult but good lord, don't immediately go out of your way to antagonize her.
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Dec 19, 2021 01:16
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flakeloaf posted:Being able to articulate your force IS a powerful defense tool that needs some nerfing, but I don't know if this addresses the whole issue. You also get cops who wind up charged for something they demonstrably did not do; or the Crown doesn't bring evidence that proves the elements of the offense well-enough to make it necessary for the defense to even speak. I haven't read through your link yet, but I think we might agree that use of force and deescalation training is key to ensuring that these kinds of "justifiable" situations don't occur in the first place, but that would require actual deescalation, not threatening use of force until the subject complies or is shot (or beaten to death). infernal machines fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 01:17
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infernal machines posted:To that end I think we might agree that use of force and deescalation training is key to ensuring that these kinds of "justifiable" situations don't occur in the first place, but that would require actual deescalation, not threatening use of force until the subject complies or is shot. We absolutely do agree, and the cultural shift needed to do that is fighting against infinite inertia. You can not make this institution move in that direction; you need to take it apart and reassemble it there. Kinda like a VW beetle on the roof.
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Dec 19, 2021 01:21
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Kraftwerk posted:Here's what I'd like to know. Canadian prisons are in some ways even worse than American ones because they're just as bad but they aren't even making some rich rear end in a top hat even more stacks of cash. They're just like that. So usually, yeah.
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Dec 19, 2021 01:39
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flakeloaf posted:We absolutely do agree, and the cultural shift needed to do that is fighting against infinite inertia. You can not make this institution move in that direction; you need to take it apart and reassemble it there. Kinda like a VW beetle on the roof. Thanks for that link, it's fascinating in a predictably awful way. quote:In reflecting on the Crown’s position, I must consider all of the evidence about police training on punches as a use of force option. Officers are taught that punching can be an effective means of establishing control. They receive training on punching techniques, some of which identifies the typical target area as the face and upper torso. Teaching covers both the “palm heel strike” and the “weapon hand” or closed-fist punch. The finding that the officer isn't culpable for harm because they were explicitly trained to inflict that harm in the course of their duties is just loving wild. Like, I can't even argue the point because it basically lays the blame exactly where it belongs, but because suggesting that training is wrong is outside the purview of the court, that will not be addressed. I remember during the initial furor over the Sammy Yatim shooting someone in a previous version of this thread broke out the "wheel of force" to demonstrate why Forcillo was justified in emptying a magazine into Yatim. e: I also love the stated assumption that when you roll up and see your boy throwing down, yours is not to ask why, you just get in there and lay that sucker out. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 01:51
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infernal machines posted:I remember during the initial furor over the Sammy Yatim shooting someone in a previous version of this thread broke out the "wheel of force" to demonstrate why Forcillo was justified in emptying a magazine into Yatim Forcillo getting done for attempted murder but not murder because they separated the shooting into two distinct events was... certainly creative prosecuting.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:08
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Hand Knit posted:Forcillo getting done for attempted murder but not murder because they separated the shooting into two distinct events was... certainly creative prosecuting. Well, the fact that he died from the justified use of force and not the unjustified use of force was certainly fortunate for Forcillo It's a real shame that having him isolated on a vehicle with both exits controlled by police still necessitated the use of lethal force. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 02:13
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infernal machines posted:Well, the fact that he died from the justified use of force and not the unjustified use of force was certainly fortunate for Forcillo I mean the use of force was determined as unjustified quite precisely because Yatim was already obviously dead. I guess there's a way in which it's politically clever, to essentially defend the cops' right to use lethal force at the drop of the hat, but convict Forcillo for getting carried away, or overkill, or getting carried away.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:19
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Forcillo absolutely got away with murdering Sammy Yatim and it's abhorrent that the court went to such mental gymnastics to avoid reaching that same conclusion.infernal machines posted:
That might be reframing the facts a bit; he did know why: quote:[320] To summarize, I find that in the few minutes before he arrived at 55 Hilda, the following information became available to Constable Montsion:[62] What concerns me most about all of this is that, at no point in this incident did Abdirahman Abdi ever attack a police officer. He was repelling their attacks and trying to get away, and he could definitely have hurt Weir if he'd really wanted to, but he wasn't assaultive or even belligerent. This was a disoriented MHA subject who was probably already in the middle of a heart attack being tackled and pummeled on the street by cops whose only thought was to arrest the bad man.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:23
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