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I don't think he ate her, just killed her. Choked her with her umbilical cord is how I remember the panel.
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Dec 18, 2021 04:04
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I believe Chuck sensed her evil in the womb or somesuch.
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Dec 18, 2021 04:42
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why the gently caress is mutant Hitler on Krakoa
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Dec 18, 2021 19:38
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Dawgstar posted:I believe Chuck sensed her evil in the womb or somesuch. Charles Xavier committed deliberate murder in the womb?
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Dec 18, 2021 19:43
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Sandwolf posted:why the gently caress is mutant Hitler on Krakoa Which one?
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Dec 18, 2021 19:49
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bobkatt013 posted:Which one? In terms of body count Cassandra Nova out weighs any other villain on Krakoa by several orders of magnitude.
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Dec 18, 2021 19:54
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Caidin posted:Charles Xavier committed deliberate murder in the womb? According to Shiar myth of the Mummudrai every person kills their evil psychic twin before they are born but Xavier is so gifted his twin took material form
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Dec 18, 2021 19:57
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I dunno, Apocalypse has gotta be pretty high up there considering he's a couple of thousand years old, and if you include alternate universes, pshhhht That being said, this definitely bodes poorly for any hope that Krakoa getting it's poo poo straightened out after Inferno. Someone start a countdown until Beast gets a seat on the council.
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Dec 18, 2021 19:59
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OnimaruXLR posted:I dunno, Apocalypse has gotta be pretty high up there considering he's a couple of thousand years old, and if you include alternate universes, pshhhht "Age of Apocalypse" Apocalypse probably killed more people, but that's not the Apocalypse that was brought to Krakoa, there's probably universes where every single prominent 616 mutant committed a genocide, but in the 616 Cassandra Nova is uniquely terrible, she killed 8 million people in a couple seconds.
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Dec 18, 2021 20:05
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Sinister was running a mutant concentration camp
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Dec 18, 2021 20:07
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bobkatt013 posted:Sinister was running a mutant concentration camp I'm not defending anyone else who is on Krakoa I'm just saying none of them have killed 8 million people in seconds. I think most of the bad guys on Krakoa have body counts that are less than 100.
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Dec 18, 2021 20:12
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bobkatt013 posted:Sinister was running a mutant concentration camp did he kill 8 million *mutants* like, a lot of the bad guys on Krakoa are killers, some are mutant killers, but Cassandra Nova killed 8 million mutants, on purpose. she's worse than the worst reading of Scarlet Witch, and she's joining the Marauders?
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Dec 18, 2021 20:26
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The solicit makes it sound like they need her because she’s the only one that can help them solve a two billion year old mystery. Is it possible Sublime will be involved?
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Dec 18, 2021 20:29
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cut her some slack that was a girlboss moment
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Dec 18, 2021 20:43
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It's a really weird move that I think is designed to make readers think "wait, what on earth?" but imo Orlando is a good writer so I'm excited to see what he does with this.
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Dec 18, 2021 20:58
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I think it's the natural progression of writing anti-heroic arcs for Apocalypse and Sinister, and to a lesser extent characters like Selene, Proteus or Vulcan, to pick up Cassandra Nova and try to do the same with her. It's also an incredibly X-Men thing: in some ways, turning a invidious former villain into a member of the team is about as fundamental a move to the franchise as there is, and the Krakoa era has just pushed that tendency to its absolute theoretical limit as part and parcel of heightening the X-Men's setting and stakes generally.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:09
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How is Sabretooth more unforgivable than Cassandra Nova though
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Dec 18, 2021 21:11
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Sandwolf posted:How is Sabretooth more unforgivable than Cassandra Nova though He's not, really-- all his pre-Krakoa crimes were forgiven just like everybody else's. He was thrown in for breaking the new laws, which afaik Cassandra Nova hasn't done yet.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:13
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maybe mutant hitler isn't so bad, once you get to know her
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Dec 18, 2021 21:14
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they sent sabertooth out on an espionage mission, acted surprised that he murdered some people and then retroactively made that a crime on krakoa. he's awful but so is the council.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:28
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Sandwolf posted:How is Sabretooth more unforgivable than Cassandra Nova though He's getting a solo series, so he clearly isn't.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:37
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I mean, Cassandra was a good guy in Morrison's own run in Here Comes Tomorrow. So it's not like they're doing something that her creator didn't do.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:37
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every time i see the name Steve Orlando i think he was a writer in the 70s for some reason, not a contemporary one
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Dec 18, 2021 21:38
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Alaois posted:every time i see the name Steve Orlando i think he was a writer in the 70s for some reason, not a contemporary one Same, I don't know what it is, but the name makes me feel like he wrote a decent run of 70's Defenders.
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Dec 18, 2021 21:41
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Skwirl posted:there's probably universes where every single prominent 616 mutant committed a genocide, Gambit's on that list. In the universe where he didn't have Sinister dial his powers back for him, he eventually got to the point where he accidentally made every human on Earth spontaneously combust. I'm tempted to take on the continuity challenge of seeing who else would be in this particular club. Off the top of my head: - Magneto has the AvX What If where he ends up wiping life off Earth - there are something like three or four different stories where Phoenix at least destroys the planet - Sebastian Shaw gets at least three assists for all the AUs where the Sentinels take over - there's that one really weird What If with Larry Stroman art where Vulcan loses his poo poo and wipes out most of interstellar civilization - if Deadpool counts, his "Dreadpool" alt from the first Kills the Marvel Universe has at least one total planetary wipe-out on his record
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Dec 18, 2021 22:04
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fatherboxx posted:cut her some slack that was a girlboss moment girlboss gatekeep gaslight Curious to see what actually happens, but just from the premise, it really makes throwing Nanny and Orphanmaker in the hole look like mutant society is carrying on homo sapiens tendency to throw the disenfranchised and mentally ill to the wolves while sociopaths of societally-catastrophic levels get to run around and do whatever they want
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Dec 18, 2021 23:00
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Wanderer posted:Gambit's on that list. In the universe where he didn't have Sinister dial his powers back for him, he eventually got to the point where he accidentally made every human on Earth spontaneously combust. Also at one time Bobby would have frozen the world without his ice belt. Man, I miss the 90's 'every mutation could get out of control and destroy the world' stuff. (I don't actually, but it is kinda funny.)
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Dec 18, 2021 23:43
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To be fair, as others have pointed out, Morrison's New X-Men does have a redemption arc for Cassandra Nova baked in. So she was sort of auto-redeemed from mere months after her creation. Then again, that run has been retconned six ways from Sunday over the years (and in some cases I'm glad of it - look at Magneto) so I guess all bets are off.
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Dec 18, 2021 23:44
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Perhaps ironically given all this, Morrison's X-Men does, in fact, redeem the genocidal Cassandra Nova while going hard on the idea that Magneto's history as a 60s-style supervillain makes him irredeemable. And it does so through a similar device to the one Claremont used to redeem Magneto - being turned back into a child and thereby absolved of past sins.* Weird parallelism, and normally you'd assume that Morrison intended it given how fastidious they are, but interviews they gave about the run seem to indicate that they really thought Magneto was getting his characterisation just deserts in those stories, and that he was ultimately an irredeemable tyrant. Maybe just the weight of 90s stories about Magneto being a giant jerk and dweeb. *(In the original Trial of Magneto this was a continuity deep cut from a 70s Defenders story where Mutant Alpha turns Magneto into a baby, but Claremont used it to wipe Magneto's slate clean all the same - much as Morrison used Nova getting psychically tumble-dried into Ernst to justify her rehabilitation.)
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Dec 19, 2021 00:00
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Alaois posted:every time i see the name Steve Orlando i think he was a writer in the 70s for some reason, not a contemporary one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Orlando Orlando was Moore's stand-in for superstar comics creator in Watchmen, which is probably the main reason most comics readers recognize the name.
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Dec 19, 2021 01:23
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Alaois posted:every time i see the name Steve Orlando i think he was a writer in the 70s for some reason, not a contemporary one I get that same feeling. When I heard about him doing a collaboration with the wrestler Danhausen, I was like “Oh, that guy has been making comics forever.”
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Dec 19, 2021 01:31
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I'm pumped for the upcoming Claremont Gambit book, that's what I'm talkin' about. Good, bad, I'm pleased they're giving this a go.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:46
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Android Blues posted:Perhaps ironically given all this, Morrison's X-Men does, in fact, redeem the genocidal Cassandra Nova while going hard on the idea that Magneto's history as a 60s-style supervillain makes him irredeemable. And it does so through a similar device to the one Claremont used to redeem Magneto - being turned back into a child and thereby absolved of past sins.* I've thought about this problem a lot and I've never quite been satisfied with any answer. But basically I think Morrison was less interested in writing a Magneto story than about writing a story about Magneto stories-- they're dabbling in stuff about history and memory in such a way that the material fact of Magneto The Guy becomes less and less relevant over the course of the story. It's mean as gently caress to a widely beloved character who was, at their best, very nuanced, but I also think as a statement it's pretty bravura-- and of course Morrison more or less acknowledges that it too would pass and eventually the wheel would turn again. It's just not their story about mercy-- they told that one already, at least once (sometimes I think the entire Xorn arc is a model lesson of Magneto undergoing the crucible of "the redemption arc" and flunking it). It's their story about letting go of old things. I don't know if that holds together as a reading on my end or as a statement on Morrison's but it's the best I've come up with in like almost 20 years of reading that story.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:39
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:they sent sabertooth out on an espionage mission, acted surprised that he murdered some people and then retroactively made that a crime on krakoa. he's awful but so is the council. If anything, it was an open test to see if Sabretooth could do as he was told and be of use to their new society, one that he failed. You could argue that most of them probably did expect for him to fail and so, by testing him at all they were setting him up for failure just to make an example of him...but the end result is the same, right? Someone like Sabretooth, who refuses to listen to orders and will just go against their laws no matter what you tell him, will end up in the hole at some point regardless. It's kind of draconic, but at the some time, like..."don't kill people" is not really such a high bar to clear. e: Uh, I meant "draconian," not draconic. There are currently no dragons on the council yet. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 04:05
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How Wonderful! posted:I've thought about this problem a lot and I've never quite been satisfied with any answer. But basically I think Morrison was less interested in writing a Magneto story than about writing a story about Magneto stories-- they're dabbling in stuff about history and memory in such a way that the material fact of Magneto The Guy becomes less and less relevant over the course of the story. It's mean as gently caress to a widely beloved character who was, at their best, very nuanced, but I also think as a statement it's pretty bravura-- and of course Morrison more or less acknowledges that it too would pass and eventually the wheel would turn again. I'm a big believer in the idea that Artist Intent is less important than Consumer Interpretation. There's a lot of things that go into that but the simplest is that poor execution is a thing that can happen no matter how noble the intent. There's good things in that run but I absolutely believe people have spent decades justifying the garbage in it because of the name involved. Top of the list of garbage is literally everything Magneto adjacent.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:06
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Between the portrayal of Magneto and all the Sublime nonsense, there's an awful lot of garbage in the Morrison run.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:22
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How Wonderful! posted:I've thought about this problem a lot and I've never quite been satisfied with any answer. But basically I think Morrison was less interested in writing a Magneto story than about writing a story about Magneto stories-- they're dabbling in stuff about history and memory in such a way that the material fact of Magneto The Guy becomes less and less relevant over the course of the story. It's mean as gently caress to a widely beloved character who was, at their best, very nuanced, but I also think as a statement it's pretty bravura-- and of course Morrison more or less acknowledges that it too would pass and eventually the wheel would turn again. I think this is insightful, especially the idea about Xorn being Magneto running through the steps of "redemption narrative" and just being too pig-headed and staid and old-fashioned to accept change. A lot of the better parts of the Magneto reveal in New X-Men are Morrison focusing on Magneto as old guard radical who's incapable of realising that his radicalism is dusty, sexist, and has its own invisible hierarchies. In that light, it's the fact that he knows he's somewhat good that prevents him from recognising all his various and unexamined evils, which is a trenchant story. Quire the ostensible liberationist but actual idiot as his affectational disciple mirrors that, too. I'm fascinated by the motif of "villain who appears irredeemable is transformed into an infant who can be Raised Better by benevolent and heroic role models" generally - it appears all over fiction, and Nova and Magneto aren't even the only examples of it in X-Men. It's such a novel and at the same time evasive way of dealing with the concept of moral recuperation, in that while it superficially appears to be a commentary on nurture, not nature, being the determining factor of a person's character, it also tacitly endorses the rather darker idea that some people are so bad that the only solution for them is ego death; even if they could be deradicalised, they could never earn inherent worth or dignity by traditional means. (And it almost always crops up when deeply humanist writers attempt to tackle this problem and, due to the nature of their mediums, have limited page space or screen time in which to do it. Almost like they're saying; sorry, I know this isn't quite right, but I simply do not have room for a three year subplot where the Shadow King has some breakthroughs in therapy and founds the Xi'an Coy Manh Don't Mind Control People Foundation).
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Dec 19, 2021 04:40
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BrianWilly posted:I have to give them the benefit of the doubt here to believe that they had probably warned the guy beforehand that he can't kill people or else there'd be consequences this time (Magneto said something to this effect at the sentencing), instead of just sending Creed on a mission and being like "Yeah yeah, just do whatever you want." wasn't sabertooth even a ""good"" guy immediately proceeding hickman taking over the x-line. like, working on x-force and not killing people and stuff
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Dec 19, 2021 05:37
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That was an Axis thing and it got undone for extremely stupid reasons. Edit: Even more stupid than Axis was to begin with.
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Dec 19, 2021 05:47
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I really liked Sabertooth trying to be a good guy.
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Dec 19, 2021 06:38
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