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Cleretic posted:Speaking of, is it too much to hope that the tinny radio version of the Imperial theme playing on the radio at that point is an orchestrion roll, or available uninterrupted on Youtube somewhere? I have a use for it, but I also have no idea how to look for it. I was really hoping that radio would be the Shared Fate reward as a new orchestrion. Nope, just some crates.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:33
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I shattered Hades' soul into a million pieces and he's still wandering around the afterlife just fine. The soul is not the seat of identity. We do not actually know what is.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:34
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Rand Brittain posted:I shattered Hades' soul into a million pieces and he's still wandering around the afterlife just fine. That's not how White Auracite works. It stops the soul from escaping the body, so the Ascians actually die instead of escaping to their council room to find a new body.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:40
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thetoughestbean posted:I thought that was the all the dead planets/civilizations, not ours It's one of those things where it's not explicit and people are more inclined to make the more hopeful read. Y'shtola says it looks like their souls crumble to nothing, but at the end Meteion has a giant soul egg so it's not necessarily true that what Y'shtola believed she saw was the actual case and just as likely it's Meteion using her control over fantasy dark matter to whisk them away to the egg. No Mods No Masters posted:Seems like the cutscene should be different depending on if you do it before or after endsinger then, no? I somehow doubt it is None of the role quests change depending on if you've defeated the Endsinger. They still talk about the fear and despair Blasphemies engender creating more Blasphemies, even though that nonsense would've stopped by then.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:41
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Questlines always take place during the time they unlock. This isn't new to Endwalker.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:42
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kitten emergency posted:sure but there’s been enough subtle orientalist-adjacent takes over the past hundred pages or so that I found it lol-worthy. Is it still orientalist if I'm Asian and Buddhist myself?
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Dec 19, 2021 02:44
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Ironslave posted:It's one of those things where it's not explicit and people are more inclined to make the more hopeful read. Y'shtola says it looks like their souls crumble to nothing, but at the end Meteion has a giant soul egg so it's not necessarily true that what Y'shtola believed she saw was the actual case and just as likely it's Meteion using her control over fantasy dark matter to whisk them away to the egg. Yup, and bear in mind Y'shtola's supernatural sight is explicitly aetheric in nature so she by necessity can only see one half of any aether-dynamis interaction.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:45
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Ibblebibble posted:Is it still orientalist if I'm Asian and Buddhist myself? no, and I wasn’t accusing you of it specifically (I thought your post was good and touched on a lot I didn’t know in detail so thanks for making it), I just felt like I’ve read other posts that lean on cultural differences as some sort of handwavey “oh that’s why people don’t Get It” thing, which seems very blinkered.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:47
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Questlines always take place during the time they unlock. This isn't new to Endwalker. This isn't always true, just usually. A number of Job questlines update depending on whether or not you've finished Stormblood, for example, but I struggle to think of any other time that's been the case.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:47
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tbf most of the dynamis stuff feels a lot like setup for future expansion hooks; the whole “there’s more dynamis than aether in the universe” bit explicitly. also, yknow, dynamis in xi… i wonder if they’d do something like “turns out rejoinings leave a dynamis shadow of the shard, go there to stop all the dynamis beasts from doing bad stuff now that sad bird isn’t collecting and amplifying it any more”
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Dec 19, 2021 02:49
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Ironslave posted:This isn't always true, just usually. A number of Job questlines update depending on whether or not you've finished Stormblood, for example, but I struggle to think of any other time that's been the case. I feel like they probably shouldn't have done that because just makes people even more confused, imo.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:50
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kitten emergency posted:no, and I wasn’t accusing you of it specifically (I thought your post was good and touched on a lot I didn’t know in detail so thanks for making it), I just felt like I’ve read other posts that lean on cultural differences as some sort of handwavey “oh that’s why people don’t Get It” thing, which seems very blinkered. I did say something to that effect but I meant it in more of a "I wonder if that made the writers phrase it in such a way that it's not as clear to others unfamiliar with it" rather than blaming the reader.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:51
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kitten emergency posted:no, and I wasn’t accusing you of it specifically (I thought your post was good and touched on a lot I didn’t know in detail so thanks for making it), I just felt like I’ve read other posts that lean on cultural differences as some sort of handwavey “oh that’s why people don’t Get It” thing, which seems very blinkered. I was trying to avoid doing that very thing when I brought it up, but the Buddhist allegory really did kind of smack me (and some of my friends) right in the face when I played and at the time it hadn't really been brought up in the thread. All told I'm just thankful Ibblebibble wrote such a good post on the subject!
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Dec 19, 2021 02:52
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Personally I think that FFXIV is a Christian allegory, with the WoL as Jesus. The Bible ends with Jesus beating up the devil and living happily ever after, right? It’s been a while since Sunday School
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Dec 19, 2021 02:57
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Raelle posted:I think we have once again reached the point where people keep hammering on about 'the point', when nobody in this thread, I believe - or at least not most people - are missing 'the point', they're arguing that this text in particular does not illustrate the point convincingly through its specifics or that it unintentionally, by dint of having to balance different elements and make certain storytelling decisions that not entirely based around themes - because guess what, FFXIV is a commercial product marketed to a certain audience as well! - is self-contradictory at points which ends up painting a picture that makes some people uncomfortable based on their own experiences with similar rhetoric in the past and how it has been used. I think "the point" is that it's bad and in fact not admirable to use past traumas as an exclusive emotional and intellectual frame of reference. It's probably why so many people have trouble understanding why some other people are coming away with the misreads that they are - not only do the common misreads have little to no textual support (making them seem abrasive at best) but they are literally saying the kinds of things the primary antagonist of the story is putting forth. It's understandable to me if folks initially perceive that type of argument to be offensive or in poor faith given they just spent however long actively fighting against a winged avatar of that position and all it stands for. At the very least it comes off intentionally edgy, like "oh so you don't like volkswagens or the autobahn?  " when it's drat clear where the proverbial room stands.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:59
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Xarbala posted:Yup, and bear in mind Y'shtola's supernatural sight is explicitly aetheric in nature so she by necessity can only see one half of any aether-dynamis interaction. Yeah, I said "just as likely" but I think it's far more likely Y'shtola is making assumptions based on all she understands at the moment. When Meteion is talking about preventing birth and storing tons of souls inside the soul egg, after you learn about Dynamis and the egg it's the natural assumption that this is where everyone actually went, especially since it feels that it would be considerably bleak to say that people's souls are permanently destroyed in light of the hopeful tone of the conclusion. They already acknowledge that those lost aren't coming back, no real need to go further.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:00
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kitten emergency posted:tbf most of the dynamis stuff feels a lot like setup for future expansion hooks; the whole “there’s more dynamis than aether in the universe” bit explicitly. also, yknow, dynamis in xi… i wonder if they’d do something like “turns out rejoinings leave a dynamis shadow of the shard, go there to stop all the dynamis beasts from doing bad stuff now that sad bird isn’t collecting and amplifying it any more” While they could do that, I think it's just a nod to dark energy. While I can't remember where exactly I think he speculates it makes up about 68% of the universe which is also how much dark energy is thought to make up.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:03
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Lord_Magmar posted:That's not how White Auracite works. It stops the soul from escaping the body, so the Ascians actually die instead of escaping to their council room to find a new body. White auracite stops the soul from escaping to the void, to eventually return and claim a new body. Hades' wasn't even in a body when you beat him in the Dying Gasp (he kills it when he says "I am stifled by this vessel of flesh!" and pops out his soul-form). Then at the end of the fight he actually says "You would shatter my soul?". So, yeah. You shattered his soul.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:05
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TGLT posted:While they could do that, I think it's just a nod to dark energy. While I can't remember where exactly I think he speculates it makes up about 68% of the universe which is also how much dark energy is thought to make up. It's also nearly-impossible for them to detect and interact with, and they mostly observe and are aware of it through how it affects things. It's almost certainly a nod.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:07
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Yeah, that too
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Dec 19, 2021 03:07
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Rand Brittain posted:White auracite stops the soul from escaping to the void, to eventually return and claim a new body. Hades' wasn't even in a body when you beat him in the Dying Gasp (he kills it when he says "I am stifled by this vessel of flesh!" and pops out his soul-form). His soul sure doesn't look shattered to me when it shows up later. Also I think he just transforms like Hermes did, so he absolutely could've come back into a physical form afterwards. The joke of course being that Hades transformed twice in front of you even though it's totally improper to do so in front of others.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:10
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Lord_Magmar posted:His soul sure doesn't look shattered to me when it shows up later. Also I think he just transforms like Hermes did, so he absolutely could've come back into a physical form afterwards. The joke of course being that Hades transformed twice in front of you even though it's totally improper to do so in front of others. I mean, it specifically says on multiple occasions that we are destroying their soul, so what I took from that is that the soul is not the part of you that enters the afterlife. (Which similarly fits with the fact that in Endwalker we do in fact see people entering the afterlife at a time when their soul is 100% trapped in the Gloom Egg.)
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Dec 19, 2021 03:13
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thetoughestbean posted:Personally I think that FFXIV is a Christian allegory, with the WoL as Jesus. 
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Dec 19, 2021 03:14
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I could've sworn that it was stated at some point that while the soul and aether are separate, the actual seat of identity is a mysterious third thing.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:15
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The idea of white auracite letting you break souls has felt to me like a presentation relic from the earlier game. It wants to talk in terms of capturing and destroying the free-floating Ascian-ness and that's the word it settled on, but since then the actual soul thing seems to have pretty firmly clarified on the idea that this isn't the same as breaking the thing that returns to the Aetherial Sea and is reborn, which we usually refer to and consider analogous to our ideas of a soul.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:18
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I'm kinda disappointed that this thread seems to have entered "the text was objectively good and everyone who found flaws in it is projecting" mode, especially since it's become a situation where the original opinions being espoused are basically being telephone gamed into weird distortions. Like it only took a page for my "FFXIV might have some tepid pro-status quo ideas" to become "FFXIV is right wing dog whistling".
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Dec 19, 2021 03:18
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PoorWeather posted:I'm kinda disappointed that this thread seems to have entered "the text was objectively good and everyone who found flaws in it is projecting" mode, especially since it's become a situation where the original opinions being espoused are basically being telephone gamed into weird distortions. Like it only took a page for my "FFXIV might have some tepid pro-status quo ideas" to become "FFXIV is right wing dog whistling". No I think people just don't agree that your reading is supported by the text no matter how much you desperately wish it to be.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:19
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I think it's one thing to say that someone's readings aren't actually supported by the text. I think it's quite another to say that they're so off base it clearly means the people saying them are just intentionally provoking people with their Wrong Opinions. It's also a third to compare people to nazis (or at least nazi-adjacent people) and definitely don't do that!
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Dec 19, 2021 03:23
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Ibram Gaunt posted:No I think people just don't agree that your reading is supported by the text no matter how much you desperately wish it to be. Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What?
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Dec 19, 2021 03:24
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PoorWeather posted:Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What? You're the one whos written thousands of words about it. You can't pull this card that it's "just a videogame plot"
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Dec 19, 2021 03:25
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PoorWeather posted:Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What? You had a poo poo take on the text, relax.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:26
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PoorWeather posted:Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What?
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Dec 19, 2021 03:28
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PoorWeather posted:Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What? Gonna have to disagree here.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:32
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homeless snail posted:Would you say its an invalid reading of your text for me to pick up on some desperation? I would say that it is in general pretty weird to make the hop from "I don't agree with this person's take" to talking about them as a person, yeah. Like, when the atmosphere becomes one where that's happening constantly - which it basically has over the past four pages, with me and then Ironslave and then Ither and then Raelle not only having our readings criticized, but getting called stupid for having the response we did to varying extents - then I think something has gone a little strange. Saying "like I wish it to be" in particular is really odd, because obviously I don't want to have a reading of the story that makes me like it less; if I wasn't already attached to FFXIV's plot, I wouldn't be here at all. So it feels as though the statement is implicitly saying, like Hellioning suggests, that I'm only discussing the response I had to it because I want to poo poo on the game or am a bad faith troll. And so it's okay to treat me like an unreasonable jerk. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 03:37
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I don't remember seeing it in explicit text but I think the significance of the "Blasphemies" in specific is that they're loci of corrosive dynamis such that can provoke Final Days-style transformations all by themselves. That's why they're still problems after you've beaten the game. The Fordola thing, on the other hand, I just took as metaphorical.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:47
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PoorWeather posted:Like, this is what I'm talking about. This is a weirdly hostile and judgy thing to say to somebody in a discussion about a video game plot. "Desperately wish it to be"? What? I didn't respond to most of your posts directly because I didn't really have issue with them on the matter of your subjective experience. If anything, I would argue that your opinions on Venat were shared by the character herself. Other characters view her more charitably because from their perspective they would not exist if not for her actions before the time loop. And after the time loop if not for her they would not be able to beat Meteion. The Scions are in a position where probably feel they can't be too harsh on the woman who sacrificed so much of herself to give them a fighting chance, even if she is arguably as much of a monster as Emet is. Same as how they can still sympathize with Emet and even accept him in the end, though they challenged him for the right to live and opposed his atrocities. The narrative also takes the perspective of the WoL and the people they're fighting for, who are the modern Etheirysians. And they are absolutely on Hydaelyn's side who else would they side with? The people who would genocide them to recreate a lost world? You can be dissatisfied with that, sure, but it is what it is.. But yeah, I mean. If nothing else your opinion is valid, even if I do not share, so I can't really say much else about it beyond that. I'm sorry if the vibe of discussion has gotten hostile around you.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:48
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FAUXTON posted:So as an amplifier for all that bad dynamis, she managed to drag the rest of the universe into her pity party and only the best pals in the universe can save her by putting up with all her poo poo and still being her friends. And this is why, ever since I got her, the Starbird has been my minion of choice. 'We are going on an ADVENTURE!' 
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Dec 19, 2021 03:54
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Ferrinus posted:I don't remember seeing it in explicit text but I think the significance of the "Blasphemies" in specific is that they're loci of corrosive dynamis such that can provoke Final Days-style transformations all by themselves. That's why they're still problems after you've beaten the game. Metaphor was how I saw that moment too. I don't think the Blasphemies themselves had anything special that caused more transformations, felt to me like it was a remark on how despair is often contagious and the very presence of a giant monster out to kill you that maybe used to be someone you know could easily make you fall into it--like the poor Arkasodara kids in the 85 Duty. That could have been the intent, though. Xarbala posted:Other characters view her more charitably because from their perspective they would not exist if not for her actions before the time loop. And after the time loop if not for her they would not be able to beat Meteion. The Scions are in a position where probably feel they can't be too harsh on the woman who sacrificed so much of herself to give them a fighting chance, even if she is arguably as much of a monster as Emet is. Same as how they can still sympathize with Emet and even accept him in the end, though they challenged him for the right to live and opposed his atrocities. There's a dimension to all that with Venat that has made me appreciate the overall narrative a bit more. I've found myself less sympathetic to her for her decision to not take a risk at exposing the truth and instead leaning into the time loop. It's a safe--if albeit startlingly self-sacrificing in its own way--decision, and one we also see reflected in her choice to create the moon and the loporrits as an escape vessel for the people of Etheirys. Come the culmination of everything setting out for Ultima Thule, though, everyone chooses instead to take the risk of confronting Meteion rather than the safe escape, doing what she wasn't willing to commit to and fulfilling her own hopes and validating her faith in the people of Etheirys. To step beyond the deity (in a way beyond the act of beating her in a physical fight).
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Dec 19, 2021 04:01
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Ironslave posted:The idea of white auracite letting you break souls has felt to me like a presentation relic from the earlier game. It wants to talk in terms of capturing and destroying the free-floating Ascian-ness and that's the word it settled on, but since then the actual soul thing seems to have pretty firmly clarified on the idea that this isn't the same as breaking the thing that returns to the Aetherial Sea and is reborn, which we usually refer to and consider analogous to our ideas of a soul. I mean, they've been very specific about what a soul is and that we're shattering them as recently as Shadowbringers. I think the writers just have a different conception of what a "soul" is from what that word means in the vaguely-Christian cosmology of Western fantasy. Kingdom Hearts has a similar issue where the mind, heart, and soul are known to be three separate things and God help me if anybody on Earth can explain the difference.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:18
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Clarste posted:I feel like they probably shouldn't have done that because just makes people even more confused, imo. The jobline in question I'm pretty sure is Dancer which you can unlock before you have even entered STB and can definitely complete before you have completed the expansion, but the job actually released in SHB so for it makes sense that they would need to have two different lines for whether or not Ala Mhigo has been liberated yet. If you are post STB doing current content shouldn't throw you back in time, but mid STB "Hey good job liberating Ala Mhigo!" would be out of place.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:18
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