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tsob posted:There's little evidence they wouldn't either. The Antarctic Treaty, negotiated after the destruction of the Sides and the colony drop, has specific provisions for the treatment of prisoners according to dialogue in both 0079 and Zeta, and the White Base talks about honoring it after they capture one of Ral's men. The Federation also honors the nuclear ban in it throughout the war, even when Zeon don't. I mean if you want to go into comparisons with WW2, then official policy doesn't really matter much on the front lines. Like, one of the many tools used to keep Japanese troops in line was the propaganda that they'd be killed by the western barbarians if they surrendered - this was not helped by the small issue that Allied forces actually were killing Japanese who surrendered an uncomfortable amount of the time, no matter what the official Allied policy on the issue was. And there wasn't even an opening conflict there that massacred some incredibly high percentage of those soldiers' friends and family. Some units certainly honored the provisions unreservedly, and others would probably honor if it in some circumstances, but there were plenty of cases where neither of those were true.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:14
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i'd imagine there were a lot of zeon deserters who started new lives with new identities on earth. but that never comes up because what are you even going to do with that? they don't have robots to fight like all the zeon holdouts that attacked dakar.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:26
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Lord Koth posted:I mean if you want to go into comparisons with WW2 I'd rather extrapolate based on what we actually see, rather than what maybe could have happened off screen. We have nothing to suggest the Federation were killing surrendering soldiers, or that Zeon spread about the idea they did. So why assume it to have happened in order to excuse any work from engaging with that idea? If they're going to have that as a reason, then at least say it's the reason. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 21:27
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'd imagine there were a lot of zeon deserters who started new lives with new identities on earth. but that never comes up because what are you even going to do with that? they don't have robots to fight like all the zeon holdouts that attacked dakar. The Zeon navy post-war basically gets paid by the Federation navy to occasionally look scary so the Federation keeps up funding, while spending the money in small towns to buy soups.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:34
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tsob posted:The Titans also almost exclusively targeted Federation citizens and not Side 3. In fact, every colony they targeted with gas or laser attacks was in a Federation aligned Side (almost always Side 2 for some reason), and they tried to ally with Neo Zeon when they appeared, rather than trying to wipe them out. Zanscare came from Side 2 so maybe those brave men and women in the Titans were just ahead of the curve in stopping spacenoid threats before they started.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:26
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God bless them.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:36
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Gaius Marius posted:God bless them. Except Jerid.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:50
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#0170 - Departure Victory having some retractable cockpit but with the glass being removed forward is quite strange. Shakti feeds a rock to Flanders, and her position is revealed because she is making lunch/supper. Asher saved Shakti and her friend by jumping on them. I don't think that's what saved them. Uso gets caught 'cause he's a big dumb baby. Then he falls from the Gundam for... reasons. Katjina's been converted to the dark side. A Mobile Suit Pilot (Ray) doesn't notice the rope, doesn't call for help, gets owned by two kids. Asher takes like 30 minutes to figure out Uso is the pilot, and is dumb enough to have used all his ammunition. Asher and Uso's suits both lose legs, and Oliver happens to be flying with an extra pair. How fortuitous!  Cool AND funny Asher's suit is trashed, his cockpit door is jammed, though he will surely fix it somehow. Uso recovers the Gundam, while Odelo shouts that Loos needs to "produce results", apparently forgetting there's a conscious BESPA pilot in the house. Oliver's extra pair of pants comes in handy when Uso loses his other leg. Uso's beam rifle is either a new one or apparently recharges with a pair of fresh pants. Apparently Fireweeds are the telltale sign of "Come find me". Sure. Shakti is sad again.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:59
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tsob posted:I'd rather extrapolate based on what we actually see, rather than what maybe could have happened off screen. We have nothing to suggest the Federation were killing surrendering soldiers, or that Zeon spread about the idea they did. So why assume it to have happened in order to excuse any work from engaging with that idea? If they're going to have that as a reason, then at least say it's the reason. Because it's a recurring thing that has happened throughout history? Name a notable war or conflict and you can generally find incidents of surrendering troops being killed at some point, with the only real question being whether it was incredibly rare or not. Hell, it was extremely commonplace for most of human history (that or enslavement) unless the person was important enough to be ransomed. And we absolutely see dehumanization of the enemy through slurs by both sides, which is one of the key reasons behind why humans can rationalize that kind of behavior. So you've got dehumanization of your enemy, a singularly monstrous event beyond anything we've ever seen guaranteed to generate extreme hatred towards them, and a conflict raging over an absolutely huge frontage (so less supervision). Plus the Titans being a thing in the near future as another point towards the underlying current. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a situation ripe for all sorts of violations of standard POW procedure, no matter what official orders are. As for not showing it, those sorts of small scale incidents aren't really the focus of the show. Like, a large scale surrender is generally going to be conducted properly if the higher ups are generally in favor of it, but the majority of incidents are generally going to happen at a much lower level. Leave actually showing that sort of gratuitous war crime to SEED.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:03
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Lord Koth posted:Because it's a recurring thing that has happened throughout history? Name a notable war or conflict and you can generally find incidents of surrendering troops being killed at some point, with the only real question being whether it was incredibly rare or not. Hell, it was extremely commonplace for most of human history (that or enslavement) unless the person was important enough to be ransomed. And we absolutely see dehumanization of the enemy through slurs by both sides, which is one of the key reasons behind why humans can rationalize that kind of behavior. Except we repeatedly see, not only people not being massacred, but people on both sides making plans relying on the other party maintaining the Antarctic Treaty, with a lot of comments on how the latest pseudo-war-crime is just within reasonable bounds. This includes everyone from grunts to high command, with people willing to violate the treaty outright generally being shown as extreme cases, drawing a lot of comment from their own troops, for good or ill.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:13
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I doubt the Federation would accept Zeon refugees or defectors in any significant numbers since they created the sides by forcing their undesirables into them in the first place and set up the puppet Zeon government after the war for them to return to. Edit: there were probably some Zeon soldiers on Earth who went AWOL after the writing was on the wall and became illegal immigrants / small farmers like in Victory. Randallteal fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 23:17
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And, as mentioned, the standard 0079 intro crawl (which is also included in Code Fairy) explicitly states that both sides have had half their populations exterminated in the early months of the war. That's the sort of ludicrous level of brutality that should make it the default reader assumption that surrender or outright defection isn't viewed as much of an option.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:19
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Code Fairy, to its extremely minor credit, does actually address why they don't just surrender. Granted they do that but having the Proto-Titan "Black Dog" unit executing prisoners.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:27
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[quote="ImpAtom" post="520089414"] Code Fairy, to its extremely minor credit, does actually address why they don't just surrender. Granted they do that by having the Proto-Titan "Black Dog" unit executing prisoners. All I ask for when I pray A steady rollin' woman won't come my way Need a woman gonna hold my hand Tell me no lies, make me a happy man
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Dec 19, 2021 23:48
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Darth Walrus posted:And, as mentioned, the standard 0079 intro crawl (which is also included in Code Fairy) explicitly states that both sides have had half their populations exterminated in the early months of the war. That's the sort of ludicrous level of brutality that should make it the default reader assumption that surrender or outright defection isn't viewed as much of an option. It's this. And to address the obvious point of the Atlantic Treaty, it's also reasonable for the actual decision makers looking at the big picture to take a step back and basically go "woah, we're looking at total annihilation if this keeps up" and agree to limits. The problem isn't at the upper decision making levels, it's at the infantry squad vs. squad level which isn't a real focus of the show. Where Bob the infantryman isn't thinking of big, strategic realities, but rather of another day of fighting those monsters who killed everyone he ever loved. Mobile suits and their pilots aren't really representative of that, because they're ultimately are far more analogous to the concept of knights, rather than what the groundpounders deal with.
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Dec 19, 2021 23:55
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ImpAtom posted:Code Fairy, to its extremely minor credit, does actually address why they don't just surrender. Granted they do that but having the Proto-Titan "Black Dog" unit executing prisoners. Yazan a member? Seems like the type to run in a unit named after a Zepplin track
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Dec 20, 2021 00:01
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Gaius Marius posted:Yazan a member? Seems like the type to run in a unit named after a Zepplin track No, the leader is basically Budget Less Fun Yazan and his entire squad is made up of cartoonish war criminals. The Federation does have a sympathetic character wtih an actual character arc, she's just not part of the Black Dogs who Jerid would refuse to join because they're too incompetent.
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Dec 20, 2021 00:04
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I do wish that manga about a squad of Zeon defectors got translated, but so far only like chapter 36 got translated.
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Dec 20, 2021 00:06
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#0171 - Behold! The Shrike Team Marbet and Oliver are having a dispute. League Militaire does not mean Holy Alliance, translator/show. New Haro is not as cool as old Haro. Its the voice. Haro also can make bubbles impervious to wind or movement and can cast 3d projections. The Old Men complain about Uso overthinking things, and know that he's being reckless, but refuse to have a heart-to-heart discussion with him. Uso gets captured again because Shikta is in the back without a seatbelt on. Might as well just slap a "Baby on Board" sticker at this point. Karl gets owned, and I get to endure a crying baby for far too long. Why the torture, Bandai Namco?  Uso, saved again. Lotta reactors blowing up in this episode... Uso remarks that battles are better with allies. Guess I should also mention that Uso's allies this fight were the Shrike team, an all-women Mobile Suit pilot squadron. Episode ends on Oliver decking the poo poo out of Uso. Can't wait for Oliver to die.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:25
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Lord Koth posted:Because it's a recurring thing that has happened throughout history? Name a notable war or conflict and you can generally find incidents of surrendering troops being killed at some point, with the only real question being whether it was incredibly rare or not. Hell, it was extremely commonplace for most of human history (that or enslavement) unless the person was important enough to be ransomed. And we absolutely see dehumanization of the enemy through slurs by both sides, which is one of the key reasons behind why humans can rationalize that kind of behavior. It's also incredibly common to find prisoners of war or forces acting in open rebellion of grossly authoritarian leaders. It's somewhat less common for deserters or turn-coats, but they still exist in pretty much every major conflict. Including World War I and World War II, the largest, bloodiest wars in history. Mobile Suit Gundam demonstrates that the Federation is willing to honor the surrender of Zeon forces too, and not just at the highest level via platitudes as you are trying to say. It is absolutely ridiculous to dismiss mobile suit pilots as akin to knights and thus not analogous to infantry or the view of the common man and the White Base, 08th MS Team and most mobile suit pilots we see on both sides are far more representative of the view of the common man of both sides than some kind of landed gentry or person of authority. Darth Walrus posted:And, as mentioned, the standard 0079 intro crawl (which is also included in Code Fairy) explicitly states that both sides have had half their populations exterminated in the early months of the war. That's the sort of ludicrous level of brutality that should make it the default reader assumption that surrender or outright defection isn't viewed as much of an option. The intro narration is also famously inaccurate, and the actual translation works out as being "half the human population" and not "half of the population of both sides".
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Dec 20, 2021 04:11
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I think infantry units sometimes don't take prisoners properly because you now have to take care of this dipshit whose side killed Bimmy last week and what if he's loving faking it and oh my God just pretend you didn't see that flag and hit 'em with the flamethrower. Mobile Suits wouldn't run into this as much since they seem to operate semi-independently of infantry and a surrendering Mobile Suit pilot is also bringing you a great asset, relatively speaking.
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Dec 20, 2021 04:27
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I'm watching the first series. It's quite good, though would prefer to watch it in Japanese. Funimation seems to have hosed up the episodes royally for Japanese version. Anyways, drat this show is heavy. The last shot of the crew burying Garma's fiance in a nowhere desert still sticks with me. I'm more further along since then but still. War freaking bad dude.
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Dec 20, 2021 04:37
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Nessus posted:I think infantry units sometimes don't take prisoners properly because you now have to take care of this dipshit whose side killed Bimmy last week and what if he's loving faking it and oh my God just pretend you didn't see that flag and hit 'em with the flamethrower. We also don't actually see much in the way of pure infantry in the One Year War. They exist, but they're (a) less common and (b) not usually the first in to any given battle or area, since mechanized units play such a large part in the fighting. Tanks, planes etc. fill that gap for the Federation during the early to mid war, rather than mobile suits, but those still aren't infantrymen.
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Dec 20, 2021 04:39
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Yeah off the top of my head outside of a flashback in Thunderbolt we basically never really see Infantry in any of the animated works in any real capacity beyond being guards on bases, and even in side works like games and manga are extremely rare(like even people like Kondo who often lean more gritty than the norm for the franchise barely use them beyond scenery)
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Dec 20, 2021 05:00
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drrockso20 posted:Yeah off the top of my head outside of a flashback in Thunderbolt we basically never really see Infantry in any of the animated works in any real capacity beyond being guards on bases, and even in side works like games and manga are extremely rare(like even people like Kondo who often lean more gritty than the norm for the franchise barely use them beyond scenery) The first episode of IGLOO 2: The Gravity Front is all about the poor bloody infantry conducting anti-Mobile Suit operations. It doesn't go the best for them.
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Dec 20, 2021 05:43
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tsob posted:It's also incredibly common to find prisoners of war or forces acting in open rebellion of grossly authoritarian leaders. It's somewhat less common for deserters or turn-coats, but they still exist in pretty much every major conflict. Including World War I and World War II, the largest, bloodiest wars in history. Mobile Suit Gundam demonstrates that the Federation is willing to honor the surrender of Zeon forces too, and not just at the highest level via platitudes as you are trying to say. It is absolutely ridiculous to dismiss mobile suit pilots as akin to knights and thus not analogous to infantry or the view of the common man and the White Base, 08th MS Team and most mobile suit pilots we see on both sides are far more representative of the view of the common man of both sides than some kind of landed gentry or person of authority. The second part really isn't helping your case, since we were talking about the Federation in particular, which just means they suffered far more rather than it being equal. For the first part, you've somehow both decided that the only way surrenders are accepted is if under the watch of the highest levels, as opposed to actual issue being that there's far more room for individual response, as well as thinking that I'm comparing mobile suits to aristocrats or landed gentry. There's a reason I said the ideal of the knight, because I was specifically referring to them basically being viewed as a more elite position that the common troops often look up to or envy, along the lines of pilot or tanker - a position generally viewed as much more prestigious than basic infantry as well as needing more training... except even higher given those roles still exist and MS dominate them as well. The positions also enforce a degree of separation between the opposing sides because they're fighting from vehicles rather than out in the mud face-to-face, which makes a huge psychological difference. drrockso20 posted:Yeah off the top of my head outside of a flashback in Thunderbolt we basically never really see Infantry in any of the animated works in any real capacity beyond being guards on bases, and even in side works like games and manga are extremely rare(like even people like Kondo who often lean more gritty than the norm for the franchise barely use them beyond scenery) That'd be because it's not remotely the focus of the series. Ultimately, mobile suits have the exact same issue of planes and tanks in that they can't really take or hold territory, but would need supporting forces you rarely see. There's also the issue of fighting in close-in terrain such as urban or jungle, where you really want supporting forces in order to avoid ambushes - which HAS on rare occasion been shown. Like, I can point to multiple games which have you in charge of some sort of tank too, which also basically never bring up the supporting infantry.
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Dec 20, 2021 06:19
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Lord Koth posted:The second part really isn't helping your case, since we were talking about the Federation in particular, which just means they suffered far more rather than it being equal. It wasn't meant to help, or hinder, my case; only to point out a mistranslation. While it certainly doesn't help help the point, I don't feel it hinders it either, because Zeon lost very few men in the fighting, and their territory was barely touched in the war. Which would probably make them less anxious about the Federation's treatment, without some specific cases of leadership trying to put the fear of reprisals into them. Which we don't see. Lord Koth posted:For the first part, you've somehow both decided that the only way surrenders are accepted is if under the watch of the highest levels No, I haven't and I have no idea what made you think I have because the only times I've mentioned actual surrenders or treatment of prisoners is in reference to individual cases where it's only a single group with no major authority overseeing them, primarily the White Base. I've mentioned that the Antarctic Treaty is brought up, but at no point have I implied that cases where surrender is done is under any kind of watch by the highest levels of authority. That is entirely of your own invention. Lord Koth posted:There's a reason I said the ideal of the knight, because I was specifically referring to them basically being viewed as a more elite position that the common troops often look up to or envy, along the lines of pilot or tanker - a position generally viewed as much more prestigious than basic infantry as well as needing more training... except even higher given those roles still exist and MS dominate them as well. The positions also enforce a degree of separation between the opposing sides because they're fighting from vehicles rather than out in the mud face-to-face, which makes a huge psychological difference. It's not just not the focus of the series, it's not who the brunt of the fighting falls on within the realms of Gundam. Infantry might have a role, but that role is not to be the forefront of most actions. Mobile suit pilots are the common man within Gundam, so comparing them to knights, or even the ideals of knights is worthless. Mobile Suit Gundam alone has plenty of barely trained people piloting mobile suits on both sides of the conflict, and not just the White Base. The other animations though, like 08th MS Team and Gundam 0080 reinforce that, because they highlight that troops on both sides often have little formal training before they're put in the field. It's only in later conflicts that it might start to happen, and even then, I don't feel like it's true of Gryps, the Crossbone War etc. If there is separation, then that just makes it more likely that the surrendering troops will be accepted, because most of the people fighting them won't have the same intensity of feeling due to that separation. tsob fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 06:40
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ImpAtom posted:Of course not. The Noisy Fairies are the kindest, sweetest most gentle people in the world who only want to eat cakes and make friends and also such insanely effectively powerful mobile suit pilots that the Federation creates a special squadron (including a Pixie Gundam) specifically to hunt them down and there's a scene where they are almost singlehandedly holding off entire squadrons of Federation soldiers while other Zeon aces escape so you get scenes like "Midnight Fenrir says you guys are AWESOME." But they are innocent and pure and just want to make a Christmas Tree!  I had no idea they prayed to the spirit of the goddamn Hildolfr pilot. I did watch the endgame mission and I had to fight not to roll my eyes at the Noisy Fairies panicking and shouting why these mean ol' Federation soldiers won't stop attacking them. Don't they know the war's over???  Oh, but here comes The One Good Feddie to tell these meanies to stand down!  tsob posted:It's nice that they're even addressing those things at all, but at the same time it does make you wonder why no Zeon soldier even decides to just go AWOL beyond Doan, or even rebel against Gihren and the Zabis. I think Plan to Assassinate Gihren Zabi is the only work to ever have someone do that. Never mind have any just outright join the Federation out of sheer disgust for Zeon and/or the Zabis following the atrocities at the start of the war. It's all very well to go "Ugh, the Zabis are the worst!", but it doesn't mean much if you just keep working for them. "Ugh, the Zabis are the worst! What, turn on them? gently caress you, Feddie dog!" I do think it's at least somewhat understandable in the original Mobile Suit Gundam, because there is the underlying implication that Zeon are conscripting folks, and that that's why so many of them just keep plodding through the war even if they don't have any personal stake in it or even like what's happening very much. Nothing else has ever followed up on that though, so it doesn't really work as an excuse outside the first animation. I would agree that it's nice that they're addressing this, but the way the game presents itself makes it feel like the writers want you to blame everything bad on the Zabis, while your team of adorable space nazis are completely blameless. Darth Walrus posted:TBF, from what we see of Earth's social structure throughout the UC Saga, I don't see any particular reason why we should care that some rear end in a top hat Earthnoid plutocrat got booted out of their McMansion. Like, it's so luxurious that it loops all the way around to not feeling like a serious loss, y'know? Yeah, the Noisy Fairies booted an rear end in a top hat out of their mansion, but there's probably a lot more people affected than that. They're not just occupying the mansion, they're also occupying the surrounding area, which makes me imagine their troops must have also displaced the people in nearby towns. I'm just thinking of that part in MGS where Amuro meets his mom in what seems to be a camp the Zeon soldiers have forced people into after their air raids have messed up the town.
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Dec 20, 2021 11:07
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https://twitter.com/g_cucuruzdoan/status/1473051584288358401 Doan's Island teaser. Between the style and text in the tweets going "the return of Amuro and the RX78-2 to the screen", really feels like this is gonna be an extended test animation for a full 0079 remake down the line, unless there's a funny swerve they're holding back.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:26
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Nah, it's gonna be more Char sections from Origin.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:34
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Azubah posted:Nah, it's gonna be more Char sections from Origin. They just about did them all already.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:40
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we really just gave up on 2d huh 😔
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Dec 21, 2021 00:44
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dogsicle posted:we really just gave up on 2d huh 😔 Hey if it looks as good as the Messer fight in Hathaway I'm fine with that.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:48
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https://www.asus.com/microsite/ASUS-X-GUNDAM/my/
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Dec 21, 2021 00:53
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i'm not watching Hathaway until its over so i can only judge that this teaser inspires nothing in me and Sunrise is big enough they should've been better on the ball with 2d mech animation cultivation + production schedules to match
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Dec 21, 2021 00:59
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The Char version is 3 times faster so I'm not sure why you'd ever get the Gundam,
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Dec 21, 2021 01:00
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ImpAtom posted:The Char version is 3 times faster so I'm not sure why you'd ever get the Gundam, The mighty power of the Tem Ray Circuit, obviously.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:22
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ImpAtom posted:The Char version is 3 times faster so I'm not sure why you'd ever get the Gundam, Cause speed ain't everything, and the Gundam one is more powerful and more adaptable.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:26
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2d mecha animation commits the grave sin of costing money and requiring animators with enough skill to know what they’re worth, which is antithetical to the modern paradigm of “churn the new blood until it dies and replace with fresh graduates.” Sadly, “looks like poo poo” is not and has never really been enough of a reason for large studios to care, especially on stuff like gundam with a theoretically guaranteed floor on engagement
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Dec 21, 2021 01:27
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Majestic prince and macross frontier had great cg mecha and that was like 20 years ago
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Dec 21, 2021 02:23
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