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ImpAtom posted:There are characters in a specific zone who bring it up. like in Ellis there are multiple references to the grapes as a sign of how incourragable Azem is. Regardless of the short story people treat it as a valid interpretation of Azem behavior Yes, they repeat the story given to Elidibus. Why would they not? Calling Azem incorrigible means nothing. Venat is also incorrigible by Ancient standards and she is motivated wholly by compassion. Being incorrigible by Ancient standards basically means "caring too much about stuff".
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Dec 20, 2021 19:42
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This came up in a chat so I'm reposting it for myself for future reference, Austin Walker's story about encountering an RP group in DF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5OuvvPB2yc&t=4883s For some reason I misremembered it as Daddy Tank, Mommy Healer, and bratty kid DPS who would throw tantrums by pulling enemies early. Honestly the actual events (the bratty kid was the tank and the tantrum was shirking boss aggro onto the dad healer) are better
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Dec 20, 2021 19:45
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I love amarant and necron ff9 and gekijouban tengen toppa gurren lagann hen: the lights in the sky are stars (劇場版 天元突破グレンラガン 螺巌篇)
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Dec 20, 2021 19:45
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bagrada posted:Awesome, thanks. I've got 4 retainers full of old gear and crafting mats and need to offload the stuff I won't use. I'll have to try mailing stuff to an alt once the queues settle down. The worst part of every mmo, rpg and mobile game for me is the inventory management, I'm so bad at it. Can't mail stuff to alts, you can only send mail to friends and both characters have to be online at the same time to make a friend request.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:45
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Harrow posted:It's from the "That I can't deny" answer. But even then it's not "feeding into Zenos's bullshit." It's just acknowledging that for your character (if you choose that option)... yeah, y'know what, this is fun. All this adventuring and doing the craziest poo poo anyone's ever done? It kind of rules. Zenos contends that yes, you are a hero and your motivations and his aren't the same, but he believes that on some level you wouldn't be doing this if you didn't love the challenge and the thrill of it. I can appreciate this take on it, even if I don't find anything involving Zenos "fun." Like, I had fun playing the game and going on adventures, but every time Zenos shows up it's a Bad Time for all the characters I care about so, for me, that fight was more about closing the book on him.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:46
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yes, they repeat the story given to Elidibus. Why would they not? Calling Azem incorrigible means nothing. Venat is also incorrigible by Ancient standards and she is motivated wholly by compassion. I think the reason they use the word "incorrigible" is just that Venat and Azem both do some absolutely wild, dangerous things with little regard for their personal safety and entirely for the benefit of others. I do feel like at least Emet and Hythlodaeus use that term with affection, though. Emet gets all worried for his friend and so he complains about how incorrigible they are, ugh, can't they just be respectable and safe Charles Get-Out posted:I can appreciate this take on it, even if I don't find anything involving Zenos "fun." Like, I had fun playing the game and going on adventures, but every time Zenos shows up it's a Bad Time for all the characters I care about so, for me, that fight was more about closing the book on him. Yeah, that makes sense. At the very least I did really enjoy his appearance for the final trial. Even if I hadn't come to enjoy his other Endwalker appearances (watching him get yelled at by Jullus and Alisaie was great), I think his flying across the universe to help you get this whole "saving the world" thing out of the way would've been enough for me to go "ahhhh this fuckin' guy right here, look at this fuckin' guy" and give him the fight he wanted. Harrow fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 19:46
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My big problems with Zenos were both kinda 'on me' situations. The major one is entirely character backstory crap, and my WoL's husband and daughter got horribly scarred by Zenos when me and my wife and friends were setting out our goofy WoL lores, so my WoL absolutely despises the man and wants nothing more than to figure out a way to kill him that also does not give him any satisfaction. The sheer amount of goofy poo poo he's done to earn that final fight though? Still absolutely despises him but "helped saved the universe in a way" lets her at least give up on the 'unsatisfactory' goal. And yeah I definitely went with "think what you want" option there. So, if I didn't have that baggage on my character I'd probably be really eh on Zenos, but I have fun hate for him! My other problem is Stormblood related (and in a way Shadowbringers but we'll get there). In SB he's introduced as this invincible, untouchable monster you can't even remotely stand a chance against, due to...honestly I barely remember at this point. Copy Echo? Which is odd given how easily the WoL can and does eat poo poo all the time in fights but ANYWAY, nothing I can think of really explains why that ever stops being the case, and it just feels like "you can't win because we said so" rather than anything properly explained. Heck even to fight Fordola you needed that aether scrambler thing. Compare this to, say, Ranjit. Every WoL fight with Ranjit feels like something you can win, but outside forces stay your hand, like your allies will get mulched in the lakeland fight, or hell, even Ranjit retreating when you show up with the king of the goddamn fairies. So when you do beat Ranjit, it doesn't feel like an asspull, it just feels like "now there's nothing to prevent your victory, go nuts." So, going a whole expansion X.0 story with an invincible-until-he's-not-for-reasons was kinda annoying, and then it really felt like they didn't know why they revived him in the patches, so he's just been waffling for almost four years. Had a hand in stuff happening in Garlemald, sure, but anyone could've filled that role with enough Ascians pushing them around, I think. (back to EW) In the end though? Even with all this, I still cannot really complain about the ending. I absolutely groaned when he showed up, and really wanted to end him once and for all, but I think that's pretty well in line with what they wanted to do with him. And yeah, he had some real great insights in this expac, even if I started yelling "no no no that motherfucker does NOT get to be philosophical" when ever he did so. That said, on the subject of zone 5? I both loved hanging out with with the big NPCs AND think that Amaurotine society is kinda terrifying and was always on some sort of collision course with catastrophe, and in a way Etheirys is kinda safer with that society being gone. But they were still people in the end and most of them deserved better than to be munched by teeth-erpillars. EDIT: Christ I don't think I've put this much text or formatting into a post on here since...2008?! meteor9 fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 19:47
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https://twitter.com/qqqqamntpppp/status/1406171441536532480/photo/1
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Dec 20, 2021 19:53
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Zenos most annoys me by stealing the show from this xpac's true hottie, Erenville.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:56
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For the Stormblood thing meteor9 he beats you up because he's a better fighter than you. That's literally it, he's better at fighting than you until you reach the end of the story and have trained up and gotten stronger and can now kick his poo poo in instead. Zenos straight up starts the expansion at level 70 when you're trying to fight him at level 61 or whatever it is. That's the whole deal, the stolen echo is later, but at the start he's literally just more skilled at fighting than you in the way that is nearly insurmountable because he's dedicated his life to learning to fight good.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:56
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Charles Get-Out posted:Zenos most annoys me by stealing the show from this xpac's true hottie, Erenville. I really really hope we get to see more of him in the future, that guy's cool
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Dec 20, 2021 19:57
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New MSQ party of Jullus, Fordola, Erenville, Pagaga, and Lyon. 
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Dec 20, 2021 19:58
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Eimi posted:New MSQ party of Jullus, Fordola, Erenville, Pagaga, and Lyon. I'm personally rooting for Jullus to become the new tank Trust, using a variation on Gunbreaker that has some slight animation variations to account for using Garlean gunblades.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:For the Stormblood thing meteor9 he beats you up because he's a better fighter than you. That's literally it, he's better at fighting than you until you reach the end of the story and have trained up and gotten stronger and can now kick his poo poo in instead. Zenos straight up starts the expansion at level 70 when you're trying to fight him at level 61 or whatever it is. That's the whole deal, the stolen echo is later, but at the start he's literally just more skilled at fighting than you in the way that is nearly insurmountable because he's dedicated his life to learning to fight good. That just raises further questions! We'd been fighting gods, and allagan metal gears, the entire primalized knights of the round, Bahamut, the cloned remnants of the most powerful ancient civilization known to the Source, etc. What the hell has he been training on, especially given how bored he seems about anything he fights beyond 'us'? ....honestly, if they did show us the crazy poo poo he'd done before running into us that would've helped a lot and now I kinda wanna see it.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:02
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Charles Get-Out posted:Zenos most annoys me by stealing the show from this xpac's true hottie, Erenville. You're right and you should say it. https://twitter.com/parallel_parkxx/status/1472858535411466242
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Dec 20, 2021 20:04
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meteor9 posted:That just raises further questions! We'd been fighting gods, and allagan metal gears, the entire primalized knights of the round, Bahamut, the cloned remnants of the most powerful ancient civilization known to the Source, etc. What the hell has he been training on, especially given how bored he seems about anything he fights beyond 'us'? For one thing it's implied he fought Shinryu to capture it, without the Echo. At least that's always been my take on why it's there at the end. Also, a lot of those are kind of inherently weakened versions of whatever they're meant to be. The Clones and Bahamut are "weaker" than the originals, the Knights of the Round is led by someone who literally devolves into worthless flailing. So on and so forth. Zenos is just a natural born warrior trained in the heart of Garlemald, the pinnacle of strength by which other mortals measure themselves. Also Varis is a super lovely dad, I dunno if that's made Zenos a better fighter but it certainly made him more emotionally stunted.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:05
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meteor9 posted:That just raises further questions! We'd been fighting gods, and allagan metal gears, the entire primalized knights of the round, Bahamut, the cloned remnants of the most powerful ancient civilization known to the Source, etc. What the hell has he been training on, especially given how bored he seems about anything he fights beyond 'us'? honestly given what we learn in EW there's a case to be made that it's just that he's that good without dynamis (or aether, for that matter). from very early in the game you start getting the Brilliant Conviction buff ("breaking limits as only a true warrior of light can"), there's limit breaks, etc., and you lean on that (plus the blessing of light, plus job crystals, plus what the game implies iirc is your unusually large supply of aether) for a good amount of your success. Zenos, on the other hand, is very, VERY good at swinging a sword normal-style (plus "normal-style" for pureblood Garleans does actually mean cheating with both third eye spatial awareness nonsense and being inherently hella strong). He doesn't even need a job crystal! Also, as the Royal Menagerie demonstrates, Zenos actually did make a point of seeking out and killing ever scarier monsters, so he could've learned a lot that way. Plus, you technically never need to fight any of the big guys to get that strong, you can always level to 70 on FATEs alone! 
Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 20:08
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Valentin posted:Plus, you technically never need to fight any of the big guys to get that strong, you can always level to 70 on FATEs alone!  I'm just imagining that and then going "okay yeah, being bored all the loving time checks out, fair play".E: just big booty Zenos and his golf bag cleaving through FATEs and sighing dejectedly
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Dec 20, 2021 20:09
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Think how much easier it would have been to just introduce zenos to the wandering minstrel so he can just fight wol ultimate over and over
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Dec 20, 2021 20:11
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Lord_Magmar posted:Zenos is just a natural born warrior trained in the heart of Garlemald, the pinnacle of strength by which other mortals measure themselves. Image spoiler assuming this doesn't break it  Well then this makes the vengeful mom uppercut at the end of the universe all the more fun and fitting then!
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Dec 20, 2021 20:12
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Valentin posted:honestly given what we learn in EW there's a case to be made that it's just that he's that good without dynamis (or aether, for that matter). from very early in the game you start getting the Brilliant Conviction buff ("breaking limits as only a true warrior of light can"), there's limit breaks, etc., and you lean on that (plus the blessing of light, plus job crystals, plus what the game implies iirc is your unusually large supply of aether) for a good amount of your success. Zenos, on the other hand, is very, VERY good at swinging a sword normal-style (plus "normal-style" for pureblood Garleans does actually mean cheating with both third eye spatial awareness nonsense and being inherently hella strong). He doesn't even need a job crystal! I mean I'd actually say him using Dynamis isn't an impossible reason for him to be so powerful when he's actually hyped to fight at the end of the dungeon. But as for Aether use this is something that the game poorly explains, Ceruleum is almost certainly liquid Aether, Garlean Magitek is all about replicating Aether attacks. Zenos big dumb loving golf bag is in fact literally how he uses all his attacks, it drenches the blades in Aether for him (well Ceruleum, but at this point Ceruleum has sprites, it's a form of Aether) instead of him doing it with his own aether and then he does the Samurai Techniques. Zenos not only knows Aetheric Techniques, as a child he replicated them by stabbing himself in the hand with an Aether Crystal to do sword beams. Think Thancred, who can't make his own aetheric ammo but can still use it as a gunbreaker.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:14
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Lord_Magmar posted:For the Stormblood thing meteor9 he beats you up because he's a better fighter than you. That's literally it, he's better at fighting than you until you reach the end of the story and have trained up and gotten stronger and can now kick his poo poo in instead. Zenos straight up starts the expansion at level 70 when you're trying to fight him at level 61 or whatever it is. That's the whole deal, the stolen echo is later, but at the start he's literally just more skilled at fighting than you in the way that is nearly insurmountable because he's dedicated his life to learning to fight good. That's how I interpreted Stormblood, besides the actual plot the whole thing is structured as an anime training arc. You get your rear end kicked, go to the other side of the world to fight and level up, then come back and win
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Dec 20, 2021 20:16
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Cythereal posted:Personally, no, I don't enjoy a good boss fight and the Endsinger was a drag. I'm here for the story, the setting, and the characters, I actively dislike how difficult many story-mandated fights have become. I think that whole thing falls so completely flat for me because no, I don't enjoy the boss fights. I enjoy the feeling of helping people and making the world a better place. Maybe you should be playing The Sims or perhaps a visual novel.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:22
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Lord_Magmar posted:For one thing it's implied he fought Shinryu to capture it, without the Echo. I was under the impression that Omega was the one that defeated and bound Shinryu before loving off to that crater in the Fringes. Zenos just happened to find it before we did and decided, "I know I'm supposed to destroy this thing because it's a primal, but I'm really bored with life, so what if I let my pet mad scientist figure out a way to let me wear it like a suit of power armor instead?"
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Dec 20, 2021 20:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean I'd actually say him using Dynamis isn't an impossible reason for him to be so powerful when he's actually hyped to fight at the end of the dungeon. But as for Aether use this is something that the game poorly explains, Ceruleum is almost certainly liquid Aether, Garlean Magitek is all about replicating Aether attacks. Zenos big dumb loving golf bag is in fact literally how he uses all his attacks, it drenches the blades in Aether for him (well Ceruleum, but at this point Ceruleum has sprites, it's a form of Aether) instead of him doing it with his own aether and then he does the Samurai Techniques. this is just sort of where the game's vagueness around how anything magic works sort of breaks down, I think. Obviously, his sword beam attacks are aether, no question. but it's kind of implied the WoL relies on aether for pretty much anything physical; it's the reason a lalafell can physically stand up to someone like Zenos and put up a fair fight. so is all of Zenos's stuff aether? I think probably not, because he's not physically strengthening himself with it, Garleans are just That Strong. Of course, at this point we're basically into power level nonsense; my point is just that Zenos has been training his whole life to be a killing machine specifically against human opponents (I doubt he spends a lot of time fighting morbols or slimes), while you have until this point been doing super abbreviated learning via job crystal fuckery, and if stormblood is an anime training arc, it's not just about getting Stronger, it's about readying yourself to fight a highly-skilled, intelligent opponent. the jobs actually play into this reading to some extent; iirc, stormblood is the expansion where you generally stop learning from the job crystals and start just wholesale making poo poo up yourself (or for MCH, it's when you stop taking stephanivien's machines and start just making your own). the real problem with Zenos's power level is: what kind of attack name is "concentrativity" for a signature move?
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Dec 20, 2021 20:24
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W.T. Fits posted:I was under the impression that Omega was the one that defeated and bound Shinryu before loving off to that crater in the Fringes. Zenos just happened to find it before we did and decided, "I know I'm supposed to destroy this thing because it's a primal, but I'm really bored with life, so what if I let my pet mad scientist figure out a way to let me wear it like a suit of power armor instead?" I always figured Omega and Shinryu kind of wrecked each other. But Zenos in my mind definitely got a go at Shinryu himself after that to capture it, it's not like Omega was down for the count after that fight either.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:28
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Lalas are like 80% hip muscle. They should be strong. I am more worried about Elezen, they gotta get a lot of neck pain.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:32
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Lord_Magmar posted:For one thing it's implied he fought Shinryu to capture it, without the Echo. At least that's always been my take on why it's there at the end. Also, a lot of those are kind of inherently weakened versions of whatever they're meant to be. The Clones and Bahamut are "weaker" than the originals, the Knights of the Round is led by someone who literally devolves into worthless flailing. So on and so forth. Zenos is just a natural born warrior trained in the heart of Garlemald, the pinnacle of strength by which other mortals measure themselves. Wasn't Shinryu defeated and subdued by Omega, hence the Omega emblems on his shield?
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Dec 20, 2021 20:32
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Christ. The last four pages are 90% black bars. The spoiler thread exists for a reason.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:34
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SirSamVimes posted:Wasn't Shinryu defeated and subdued by Omega, hence the Omega emblems on his shield? I mean okay this isn't Endwalker spoilers so I'm not gonna spoiler it. Shinryu was imprisoned with Allagan technology by the Garleans, the reason it looks like Omega stuff is because Allagan Primal subduing stuff (and thus Garlean Primal subduing stuff) is based on Omega, I think they explicitly call out getting some tech/knowledge from Azys Lla to hold Shinryu for Zenos. But Shinryu and Omega basically beat eachother to a standstill, they're perfectly equally matched (which is why they both end up crashing post fight). I'm imagining that it's very possible Zenos found the weakened Shinryu and fought it to capture it.
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Dec 20, 2021 20:36
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https://twitter.com/parallel_parkxx/status/1472858535411466242?s=21
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Dec 20, 2021 20:50
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean okay this isn't Endwalker spoilers so I'm not gonna spoiler it. Shinryu was imprisoned with Allagan technology by the Garleans, the reason it looks like Omega stuff is because Allagan Primal subduing stuff (and thus Garlean Primal subduing stuff) is based on Omega, I think they explicitly call out getting some tech/knowledge from Azys Lla to hold Shinryu for Zenos. But Shinryu and Omega basically beat eachother to a standstill, they're perfectly equally matched (which is why they both end up crashing post fight). I'm not certain this is true; the locking device sealing away Shinryu had a very distinctive "Omega" emblem that is different from the usual Allagan look. It was more Omicron than Allagan. I can't remember anything about them getting something from Azys La, though I do remember Zenos referring to Omega as an Allagan hound (Omega raid spoilers: understandable, since most people think that Omega is Allagan tech, it's not until later that it's revealed that they merely repurposed it).
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Dec 20, 2021 21:02
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Zenos is a roadblock in SB because he put every single experience point he ever earned into Sword, which makes him exceptionally good at killing people (but not so great at doing literally anything else). Eventually the obstacle he represents is overcome by the power of Having Friends and also leveling yourself up several times.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:02
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Ah yes some of the best parts of their respective expansions together. It is excellent.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:02
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Magil Zeal posted:I'm not certain this is true; the locking device sealing away Shinryu had a very distinctive "Omega" emblem that is different from the usual Allagan look. It was more Omicron than Allagan. I can't remember anything about them getting something from Azys La, though I do remember Zenos referring to Omega as an Allagan hound (Omega raid spoilers: understandable, since most people think that Omega is Allagan tech, it's not until later that it's revealed that they merely repurposed it). Magil is correct here. The fight was not a standstill of any kind. Omega won, did their dungbeetle rolly ball thing, but at great cost to its own structural integrity.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:03
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean okay this isn't Endwalker spoilers so I'm not gonna spoiler it. Shinryu was imprisoned with Allagan technology by the Garleans, the reason it looks like Omega stuff is because Allagan Primal subduing stuff (and thus Garlean Primal subduing stuff) is based on Omega, I think they explicitly call out getting some tech/knowledge from Azys Lla to hold Shinryu for Zenos. But Shinryu and Omega basically beat eachother to a standstill, they're perfectly equally matched (which is why they both end up crashing post fight). Zenos didn't fight Shinryu, Omega outright won the fight. That's why there's a scene during Doma where Zenos is all like "As expected of the one that defeated Bahamut" regardless of if you ever did, because they just found the imprisoned Shinryu and he's not talking about you he's talking about Omega.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:04
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Hellioning posted:Ah yes some of the best parts of their respective expansions together. It is excellent. It's funny. Erenville was the fastest I'd ever warmed up to a non-mascot character in FFXIV. Usually they take a scene or three, but not so much for him. What bugs me (and it's entirely myself being the problem), though, is that I can't not think of Arenvald too when I come across Erenville, simply because their names sound so similar to me.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:11
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Eopia posted:Zenos didn't fight Shinryu, Omega outright won the fight. That's why there's a scene during Doma where Zenos is all like "As expected of the one that defeated Bahamut" regardless of if you ever did, because they just found the imprisoned Shinryu and he's not talking about you he's talking about Omega. Fair enough, I always thought Omega didn't outright win because Omega's raid is explicitly it in need of repairs/reconstruction (from memory). I'm pretty sure they're still meant to be evenly matched and mutually hosed eachother up, which is why the end of their fight is both of them crashing into the planet and being found by other people damaged/imprisoned.
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Dec 20, 2021 21:24
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it never stops being funny that shinryu is apparently just Like That because ilberd and his dupes went "we call upon the destroyer! not rhalgr, though. not bahamut either. a little bigger than bahamut pls, a more hosed up mouth, more ventral spines."
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Dec 20, 2021 21:28
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Xerophyte posted:At risk of I'm guessing romance is a big factor in Y'shtola desperately wanting to go back to the first
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Dec 20, 2021 21:45
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: it's partly people seeing what they want to see, partly a lot of modern fiction popularizing the idea that any two characters alone in dialogue must mean impending romance because of narrative efficiency. FF14 does not feature a lot of romance given how much dialogue and plot it has, which is an outlier even for games nowadays.