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How are u posted:Bravely leading the revolution from graduate school in DC.  Is that true? Because lmfao
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Dec 20, 2021 23:47
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| # ? May 29, 2024 23:21 |
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So I was catching up on old posts in the "Ask/Tell Milhist" thread, and came across someone who'd gotten their hands on an Taiwanese "History of the Sino-Japanese War" (1st edition 1971) and posted some excerpts. Here's a few bits whose tone might sound familiar:Jobbo_Fett posted:With the outbreak of full-scale war in 1937, our country adopted the strategy of attrition which employed guerilla operations to supplement regular operations as an important means to tie down and wear out the enemy and control the occupied area so as to prevent it from being exploited by the enemy and the puppet regime. Accordingly guerilla warfare manuals were published and guerilla cadres trained. Elements of regular force and local militia were dispatched to conduct guerilla operations. Officials in the battlefield were directed to lead the local forces against the enemy and in self-defense and not to leave their stations at will. Guided by this correct policy, the various war areas were able to control the vast areas behind the enemy lines, lead the people, and tie down and wear out the enemy so to achieve glorious combat results. Had the Chinese Communists not taken advantage of this opportunity to swallow local forces and attack guerilla forces, the effectiveness of our guerilla warfare would have been much greater and victory expedited. An account of guerilla operations in the various war areas during the first phase of the War of Resistance is stated as follows Jobbo_Fett posted:In the spring of 1938, our Government reorganized 5,000 Chinese Communist remnants in Kiangsi, Fukien and the border area of Hupei and Anhwei into the New 4th Corps which commanded 4 columns. Subordinated to the 3rd War Area, it was stationed in Tung-ling, Fan-chang, Nan-ling and Ching Hsien in southern Anhwei. IT was directed to conduct guerilla operations in Kiangsu and Anhwei south of the Yangtze River. In order to facilitate its operations, the Government designated the area between Tung-ling and Fan-chang for it to garrison. Yet it made use of the slogan of "national united front against Japan" by deceiving youts, expanding its organizations, threatening the able-bodied males and developing rebellious forces. It scored no achievement insofar as operations against the Japanese were concerned. There's other bits like that throughout the excerpts, lengthy digs about how the Communists were useless, weak, and actively counter-productive to the war effort, or constant attempts to spin the war as being less than the omnishambles it was for the KMT (though in fairness it's China in the '30s, everything is an omnishambles, that's what happens when you have a decades long period of division and on-and-off civil war.) It's a fun reminder that while the Chinese Communist Party's messaging is blunt, heavy-handed and difficult to believe, this is less an artifact of it being the Chinese Communist Party and more it being just Chinese. Chinese historiography straight through the entire imperial period has always tended strongly towards a "The good people were so so so so good, and the bad people were so so so so bad" approach to rhetoric, and when government propagandists need to turn a phrase that's the playbook they're reaching for.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:14
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Tomn posted:There's other bits like that throughout the excerpts, lengthy digs about how the Communists were useless, weak, and actively counter-productive to the war effort This is accurate, though it was smart strategy rather than being worthless. Let the Japanese and Nationalists bleed each other white while we hide and preserve our strength, then sweep in and take over after. There's a quote I don't have but once Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Mao was just like oh lol Japan's hosed, the Americans are going to obliterate them, so time to hide and we'll be in a great position to take over after the war. Which worked exactly as planned.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:21
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Yeah, can't fault Mao for that strategy. To paraphrase the old Napoleon quote, "Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake."
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Dec 21, 2021 00:34
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Grand Fromage posted:This is accurate, though it was smart strategy rather than being worthless. Let the Japanese and Nationalists bleed each other white while we hide and preserve our strength, then sweep in and take over after. There's a quote I don't have but once Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Mao was just like oh lol Japan's hosed, the Americans are going to obliterate them, so time to hide and we'll be in a great position to take over after the war. Which worked exactly as planned. Oh, sure. I just feel that describing this as "deceiving youths, expanding its organizations, threatening the able-bodied males and developing rebellious forces" for instance is a particularly Chinese way to put it. Especially the bit about deceiving youths, that feels like a curiously popular phrase.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:46
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Well if you can kill Socrates for it then you can kill anyone
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Dec 21, 2021 00:53
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Tomn posted:Oh, sure. I just feel that describing this as "deceiving youths, expanding its organizations, threatening the able-bodied males and developing rebellious forces" for instance is a particularly Chinese way to put it. Especially the bit about deceiving youths, that feels like a curiously popular phrase. Developing rebellious forces sounds like modern Party rhetoric too.
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Dec 21, 2021 00:53
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Grand Fromage posted:Developing rebellious forces sounds like modern Party rhetoric too. Sort of an aside, I'm not really the best person to talk about this, but from my own limited Chinese pop culture understanding one thing I always thought interesting was that I got the impression that "rebels" is a word that has some very different connotations in Chinese than it does in English. Especially with Americans "rebels" might give some idea of plucky underdogs, possible freedom fighters, etc., and in general people who are specifically devoted to overthrowing their government but in Chinese "rebels" always feels tinged with hints of moral depravity, like the act of rebellion is in and of itself a great sin, and it can refer to anyone that is in any way not quite obeying the will of the central government whether that means banditry, refusal to pay taxes, unwillingness (or possibly inability) to levy troops or labor forces, or actual outright attempts to establish an opposing dynasty.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:09
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Herstory Begins Now posted:eh that's been the game for years and years, there's just no will from the mods to wade into that shitshow and, at best, no real support from the admins to clean it up and that's before getting into where the site owner's personal politics fall on the subject This is bleak as hell.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:57
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Tomn posted:Sort of an aside, I'm not really the best person to talk about this, but from my own limited Chinese pop culture understanding one thing I always thought interesting was that I got the impression that "rebels" is a word that has some very different connotations in Chinese than it does in English. Especially with Americans "rebels" might give some idea of plucky underdogs, possible freedom fighters, etc., and in general people who are specifically devoted to overthrowing their government but in Chinese "rebels" always feels tinged with hints of moral depravity, like the act of rebellion is in and of itself a great sin, and it can refer to anyone that is in any way not quite obeying the will of the central government whether that means banditry, refusal to pay taxes, unwillingness (or possibly inability) to levy troops or labor forces, or actual outright attempts to establish an opposing dynasty. it ties back to the confucian underpinnings of society. the group is good, and the group thinks this way, so this is the way to think, and if you dont conform you are a rebel that is thinking bad thoughts because the group, which is good, does not think them which therefore makes those thoughts inherently bad, and if you think bad thoughts then it must mean you are bad by default for having thought them at all. its a series of logical leaps that results in the tall poppy being cut.
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Dec 21, 2021 02:16
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its fun to see everyone in the chinese speaking world come together to hate on wang leehom. also interesting to see how all the taiwanese and mainland media makes it very clear he is AMERICAN and NOT ACTUALLY TAIWANESE/CHINESE now that he's been publicly outed as a bad dude. i can't read cantonese and don't real hk sources so idk if hk stuff also starts every piece about him explicitly saying he is American.
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Dec 21, 2021 02:52
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In 2015 I was taking students back to Taiwan after a Model UN event in Beijing (where as soon as one of my students said they came from Taiwan another kid spoke out on a point of personal privilege, basically the model UN version of "I feel offended") and when we got back at the airport and we were milling out of the plane I saw a guy and a pretty woman get in a little cart and quickly drive away from everyone else. I was like what the gently caress, those carts are for the people who need them because they are old/infirmed. Turns out it was Wang Leehom and his now ex-wife, and all the kids were upset they didn't notice until they already drove away after I told them about some rear end in a top hat driving away. Well that's my story.
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Dec 21, 2021 03:13
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I could not care less about "artist" drama. there are a lot of much worst playboys out there he just happens to be the kind of people picking up spotlights.
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Dec 21, 2021 03:18
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Grand Fromage posted:This is accurate, though it was smart strategy rather than being worthless. Let the Japanese and Nationalists bleed each other white while we hide and preserve our strength, then sweep in and take over after. There's a quote I don't have but once Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Mao was just like oh lol Japan's hosed, the Americans are going to obliterate them, so time to hide and we'll be in a great position to take over after the war. Which worked exactly as planned. There's a postwar quote by Mao where he says he doesn't hate the Japanese because more than anything they created the conditions for the revolution in China. This was approximately when China and Japan were reestablishing diplomatic relations, and was Mao's explanation for why he wasn't going full-bore foaming at the mouth angry at Japan. Tomn posted:Sort of an aside, I'm not really the best person to talk about this, but from my own limited Chinese pop culture understanding one thing I always thought interesting was that I got the impression that "rebels" is a word that has some very different connotations in Chinese than it does in English. Especially with Americans "rebels" might give some idea of plucky underdogs, possible freedom fighters, etc., and in general people who are specifically devoted to overthrowing their government but in Chinese "rebels" always feels tinged with hints of moral depravity, like the act of rebellion is in and of itself a great sin, and it can refer to anyone that is in any way not quite obeying the will of the central government whether that means banditry, refusal to pay taxes, unwillingness (or possibly inability) to levy troops or labor forces, or actual outright attempts to establish an opposing dynasty. this isn't really that true though. Even in Confucian thought, there's a right to rebel against an unjust government because it is acting directly in contrast to the will of heaven. Like a stock character for a drama is the man who is fighting against the cruel and corrupt magistrate/ruler, which isn't that far off from how Americans would see rebels. Hell, one of Communist China's most prominent animated movies is about Sun Wukong loving poo poo up in heaven and becoming quintuple immortal despite how literally everyone in power says he's going against the will of heaven and the Jade Emperor sends all his armies to stop Sun Wukong. I think you should read more Chinese fiction and not rely on third hand anecdotes, even with the communist party clamping down on pop culture it is still varied, admittedly less so than before. Don Gato fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 04:28
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Honestly surprised the Wang Leehom drama was just him cheating on his wife and not the more usual beating her. Then cheating on her. EDIT: no, wait. Checked a couple more sites. Also did emotional abuse. gently caress's sake. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 04:29
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Don Gato posted:There's a postwar quote by Mao where he says he doesn't hate the Japanese because more than anything they created the conditions for the revolution in China. This was approximately when China and Japan were reestablishing diplomatic relations, and was Mao's explanation for why he wasn't going full-bore foaming at the mouth angry at Japan. Yeah he was kind of thankful toward them. Plus Japan never froze the PRC out of trade and spent a shitload of money on building factories and assorted development in China as unofficial war reparations. All kinds of technical training too. It's easy to forget now but there wasn't much anti-Japan stuff in Mao's time, the government didn't start ratcheting that up until the 80s.
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Dec 21, 2021 06:50
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Don Gato posted:There's a postwar quote by Mao where he says he doesn't hate the Japanese because more than anything they created the conditions for the revolution in China. This was approximately when China and Japan were reestablishing diplomatic relations, and was Mao's explanation for why he wasn't going full-bore foaming at the mouth angry at Japan. Communists being A-OK with their neighbours being fascists is p standard though, just ask Poland.
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Dec 21, 2021 06:58
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Don Gato posted:this isn't really that true though. Even in Confucian thought, there's a right to rebel against an unjust government because it is acting directly in contrast to the will of heaven. Like a stock character for a drama is the man who is fighting against the cruel and corrupt magistrate/ruler, which isn't that far off from how Americans would see rebels. Hell, one of Communist China's most prominent animated movies is about Sun Wukong loving poo poo up in heaven and becoming quintuple immortal despite how literally everyone in power says he's going against the will of heaven and the Jade Emperor sends all his armies to stop Sun Wukong. I think you should read more Chinese fiction and not rely on third hand anecdotes, even with the communist party clamping down on pop culture it is still varied, admittedly less so than before. Well, yes, I HAVE read Chinese fiction - including Outlaws of the Marsh, in which "rebel," "bandit" and "criminal" are practically synonymous terms, and Romance of the Three Kingdoms where accusing people of rebellion in tones of condemnation isn't exactly uncommon, especially when dealing with the Yellow Turbans. Even in Journey to the West, Sun Wukong's behavior is framed as an act of rebellion and loudly condemned and while hilarious is ultimately suppressed by the Buddha and imprisoned for hundreds of years and his later behavior after release is further tempered with that headband of his keeping him on the straight and narrow under pain of pain. And while admittedly it's schlocky pop culture, xianxia stories are interesting to me because there's often an undertone of rebellion against heaven and the powers that be (wonder what the censors make of that), but anyone who rebels against the main character and their affiliates are usually treated as utter scum with wholly selfish motives undeserving of mercy (again, part of this is schlocky pop culture writing being very black and white about who's good and who's bad but still). It's true that heroic characters exist who oppose the powers that be in drama, but the sense I get is that "rebel" is a label they need to overcome with their virtue, as opposed to in American fiction where "rebel" does half the carrying work of conveying that virtue in and of itself, if that makes sense. I.E. "He's such a good guy it's OK for him to rebel," vs "Well if he's a rebel he's probably a good guy already." That being said... Paper Lion posted:it ties back to the confucian underpinnings of society. the group is good, and the group thinks this way, so this is the way to think, and if you dont conform you are a rebel that is thinking bad thoughts because the group, which is good, does not think them which therefore makes those thoughts inherently bad, and if you think bad thoughts then it must mean you are bad by default for having thought them at all. its a series of logical leaps that results in the tall poppy being cut. Despite what I feel about the connotations of the word "rebel," I don't think it's safe to treat Chinese culture as a group of unthinking robots acting in accordance with the hive mind. Despite whatever cultural connotations it may have, bandits HAVE raided, people HAVE tried to evade taxes (Confucius himself having a famous anecdote about a woman whose children were eaten by tigers because she willingly moved to a place free from government tax), peasant rebellions (or noble rebellions for that matter) HAVE risen and occasionally new dynasties WERE founded from such. The central government may have tried to promote loyalty and obedience to the nation as a whole and since most of the educated class joined the government that's how the language got shaped, but family and local loyalties were always strong and always there and even if they didn't say so openly weren't always acting in lock-step with central policy, and in any event how the peasantry viewed the world was always going to be different from how a government bureaucrat viewed the world. Though even then, my father has a fun traditional joke about scholars - scholars in office would generally be Confucian, spouting Confucian values and virtues, but scholars out of office would generally be Daoist, spouting Daoist values and worldviews, with the one switching readily to the other as their situation changed.
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Dec 21, 2021 11:43
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I've got a quick question to ask for the Chinese readers here. There use to be a better China thread for these kinds of questions but I don't remember where it went: I desperately need a hand-written style traditional Chinese font for work project. We can find lots of SC and HK fonts but not for TC. Any recommendations? Would an HK font present readability issues to a Taiwanese audience? First Jhana fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 13:11
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First Jhana posted:I've got a quick question to ask for the Chinese readers here. There use to be a better China thread for these kinds of questions but I don't remember where it went: The Chinese language thread is in SAL and people who know more than me post there. But I would hesitate to use a HK font because Cantonese does have a bunch of its own characters and I would assume a HK font uses those. Unrelated fun: https://twitter.com/thanksgaving/status/1473301349898932228
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Dec 21, 2021 19:01
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the NHL just pulled out of the olympics, we won't get to see a 30-0 game
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Dec 21, 2021 19:34
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i figured we were in the reasonable china thread so this didnt need to be said, but for the record the unspoken part of my post was not that every actual individual chinese person thinks the way i outlined but that there are many societal structures kept in place using the logic i wrote as the accepted underpinning, even if it isnt the actual reason for those structures existing and even if everyone it affects is aware of that fact.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:59
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The feel I've always gotten in older chinese works about rebels i've read, is that it is understandable and even enviable to rebel and reject unjust authority. Sympathetic bandits usually have a reason, and often are shown in a positive light for not putting up with unjust authority when everyone else does. HOWEVER, there often comes a time when authority is restored, or the bandits/rebels are confronted with a just official, and they are supposed to recognize that and join them. If they fail to recognize that authority or fail to submit to it, then they're usually portrayed as unsympathetic after that point.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:10
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Stink Billyums posted:the NHL just pulled out of the olympics, we won't get to see a 30-0 game 12-0
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Dec 21, 2021 21:10
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Stink Billyums posted:the NHL just pulled out of the olympics, we won't get to see a 30-0 game How does that work? Isn't the NHL a club competition, where any given club has players of several nationalities. How can a club competition pull out of a tournament between nations? Or is the NHL just not letting it's contracted players go to Beijing? Coz if it's this, wont that just mean that your non Ice-Hockey nations that are rich and stupid enough to send teams, (like Australia, or the UK), have a good chance of getting a medal, coz they have no players good enough to be bound by the NHL. This is a serious question, sorry if it sounds stupid. Edit: Looking it up, and it seems like they aren't missing the Olympics for any good reason, (protest over Xinjiang, or in solidarity with Peng Shuai etc.), but instead because they would miss too many NHL games due to quarantines and timing etc. So basically it is a bunch of millionaire jocks preferring to make a little more money rather than compete for their nation. BrigadierSensible fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 21:57
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Millionaire team owners specifically. Any player would jump at the chance to go to the Olympics.
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Dec 22, 2021 00:24
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Blistex posted:Millionaire team owners specifically. Any player would jump at the chance to go to the Olympics. I wouldn’t be so sure about that. A lot of the complained about the quarantine fatigue last go around.
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Dec 22, 2021 00:48
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MarcusSA posted:I wouldn’t be so sure about that. A lot of the complained about the quarantine fatigue last go around. There was a quarantine in 2014?
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Dec 22, 2021 03:34
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Blistex posted:Millionaire team owners specifically. Any player would jump at the chance to go to the Olympics. NHL players refuse to play in the Olympic games all the time. I know this because the tabloids make noise about it like it's somehow their duty to participate.
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Dec 22, 2021 04:44
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NHL players weren't allowed for the longest time anyway. First time was 1998 IIRC. Playing for a professional team goes against the rules that competitors are supposed to be "amateurs" although that rule was really eroded wya before by Eastern Bloc counties having athletes being "amateurs" on paper what with their theoretical job not being sports but in reality the state paid them to train full time and not actually doing those jobs. That being said typically the NHL isn't a fan of it because it basically blows up the season for a full month with all the top players gone and arguments over who insures the players if they get injured and can't play.
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Dec 22, 2021 06:33
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They'll send the european league players like they usually do.
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Dec 22, 2021 09:13
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Not surprising in the least but still sad https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/22/hong-kong-pillar-shame-tiananmen/ quote:HONG KONG — Under the cover of darkness early Thursday, authorities in Hong Kong tore down a public sculpture dedicated to the victims of the Tiananmen Square massacre, accelerating a campaign to erase the crackdown from public recollection and stamp out dissent in a city that until recently was one of Asia’s freest. CCP sure is good at erasing culturally significant things for anyone who falls under their rule.
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Dec 23, 2021 05:26
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sticksy posted:Not surprising in the least but still sad The comments section of the SCMP article on this story are reaching brave new heights of madness.
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Dec 23, 2021 05:46
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I used to pass that statue every day on my way to class. loving hell.
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Dec 23, 2021 11:16
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sticksy posted:Not surprising in the least but still sad Who needs culture look a Gucci store!! Starbucks! Armani! We are a modern free country.
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Dec 23, 2021 11:20
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Didn't the artist who created it still own it? I remember some weird poo poo about how he leased it to the university which was why they weren't able to take it down earlier.
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Dec 23, 2021 11:34
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Strategic Tea posted:Who needs culture look a Gucci store!! Starbucks! Armani! We are a modern free country. You mean Gvoci, Sffcccks, and Armwni, right?
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Dec 23, 2021 15:25
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Don Gato posted:Didn't the artist who created it still own it? I remember some weird poo poo about how he leased it to the university which was why they weren't able to take it down earlier. You're thinking a little too capitalist there comrade 
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Dec 23, 2021 15:36
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Don Gato posted:Didn't the artist who created it still own it? I remember some weird poo poo about how he leased it to the university which was why they weren't able to take it down earlier. He does and they didn't give a poo poo, they took it down in the middle of the night anyway and obviously waited until students were there to disrupt its dismantling by protesting. I guess he might sue them apparently, which I'm sure will go swell knowing how Chinese legal system works.
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Dec 23, 2021 15:42
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| # ? May 29, 2024 23:21 |
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Happy tugmas China thread
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Dec 25, 2021 23:04
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