|
Linguica posted:So it's merely that hundreds of bluepills were in love with / married to evil computer programs, and then these programs violently committed suicide in a coordinated catastrophe to try and kill Neo and Trinity, and this is better somehow (?!?) Yes? What's bad about it? The Analyst is evil, I don't know what to tell you. They already established this possibility with Trinity's family's eyes turning black in the cafe after she rejects them. Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Dec 24, 2021 |
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 01:23 |
|
|
Watched it this afternoon and thought it was pretty average. About the same as the other sequels. I'm sure they'll make more but I think I'm done with the franchise. imo its at its best when its a meta critique about nostalgia mining, but it is at its worst when it is exactly what its making fun of
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:46
|
|
|
Linguica posted:So it's merely that hundreds or thousands of bluepills were in love with / married to evil computer programs, and then these undercover terrorist programs violently committed mass suicide attacks in a coordinated 9/11 style catastrophe to try and kill Neo and Trinity, and this is better somehow (?!?) Problem with reading too deep into the matrix movies is you get crap (Plot Holes) like this Like I'm supposed to think hard about a movie where the robots use us as batteries. Despera fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:47
|
|
|
Despera posted:Problem with reading too deep into the matrix movies is you get crap (Plot Holes) like this What's the plot hole?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:56
|
|
|
Gatts posted:The actor that played Morpheus was really charismatic, I'd love to see him in other movies and be able to showcase it. You’re in luck, you can check out him showing his charisma off in HBO’s Watchmen! Sorry did I say “charisma” I meant ”abs through CGI”
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:57
|
|
|
I don't know how a movie does "one of the systems of controls used against women is forcing motherhood on them" without hitting the brick wall of "but if she escapes that what about the children!?" Like it's not wrong, but that is kinda why it works as a system of control, once you are in there is no moral way to leave it, unless you are in a sci-fi story where they might be souless robots
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:58
|
|
|
Butternubs posted:Maybe Lana Wachowski should have started with a blog post before trying to make a movie. She did, it was called The Matrix and it made millions of dollars
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:59
|
|
|
I too can not understand the themes behind "People had the chance to be free and they refused it because a comforting lie is better than a difficult truth, and now they buy into that comforting lie so much that they have made it part of their life and prefer it over having to deal with reality." This certainly is not timely or relevant to the modern world in any way shape or form. I can't imagine why someone, especially a trans woman in 2021, might feel like the themes of "Your neighbors, your friends, your family, any of them could turn on a dime and hurt and attack you simply because you represent a threat to the lie the capitalist overlords are trying to sell them and which they feel comforted by" are relevant. I mean could you imagine if the idea behind The Matrix was that feelings, emotions and desires and your self-fulfillment are more important than the logical details of the story? Like imagine if a character literally said that onscreen while looking directly at the audience, at once understanding and missing the point of the thing he claims to understand so well. Nah, film is just dumb and bad. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 02:59
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:What's the plot hole? There these thing called turbines and when you spin them they make millions of peoples worth of power.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:I don't know how a movie does "one of the systems of controls used against women is forcing motherhood on them" without hitting the brick wall of "but if she escapes that what about the children!?" There’s a reason she slices The Analyst’s head off at the jaw during the final scene and it’s because he brought kids into it, it’s not her fault. Like, I don’t think they’re her kids (oh no please don’t get into “how do matrix children work”) but the implication is that if they weren’t completely fabricated then they are at very least kids that were sort of just given to her to put her where The Analyst wants. I feel like the morality of abandoning kids who aren’t yours because you were brainwashed into a heteronormative life is a little more understandable. Honestly Trinity isn’t even their mom, Tiffany is. Tiffany who looks completely different and acts completely different and who is only “the same” in a very technical sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:08
|
|
|
Despera posted:There these thing called turbines and when you spin them they make millions of peoples worth of power. I thought the plot holes/crap like this comment was about the post you quoted, not the battery thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:09
|
|
|
The thing is that the bots are still people, even if they forced to enter a killing frenzy for whatever reason, so it's not really more justifiable to kill them than it is to kill Agents or random bank guards or whatever. However, it's not less justifiable either. It's just a question of what you're fighting for.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:12
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:I thought the plot holes/crap like this comment was about the post you quoted, not the battery thing. Theres definitely something wrong with calling otherwise decent people immoral (cause they fell in love with the program) and having them commit suicide on mass.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:13
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:There’s a reason she slices The Analyst’s head off at the jaw during the final scene and it’s because he brought kids into it, it’s not her fault. Like, I don’t think they’re her kids (oh no please don’t get into “how do matrix children work”) but the implication is that if they weren’t completely fabricated then they are at very least kids that were sort of just given to her to put her where The Analyst wants. I feel like the morality of abandoning kids who aren’t yours because you were brainwashed into a heteronormative life is a little more understandable. Honestly Trinity isn’t even their mom, Tiffany is. Tiffany who looks completely different and acts completely different and who is only “the same” in a very technical sense. I feel like it's really relevant that "In order to control you we gave you children you neither asked for nor wanted and took away all choice in the matter" is something that is part of the story. It's not so much the morality of abandoning children as the specific framing of it. Trinity was (and you're free to criticize the character because she's pretty flat at times) presented as a capable independent woman and their method of shackling her and telling her she couldn't ever do anything more specifically involved forcing her into a relationship with a belittling patriarchal male figure and children who she was expected to throw away her entire life for, while telling her this was her duty, obligation and it would be weird if she didn't feel that way. You can discuss the logistics but the logistics explicitly do not matter because the Matrix exists as a thing of emotion and desire and spirit as much as it does a mechanical roboverse. Why does Trinity's kiss bring Neo back to life? Why can Neo use magic outside the Matrix? It doesn't matter because it is about the emotions behind the concept, not the logistics, and in the case of Tiffany's family the emotion behind them is absolutely. about being forced into a 'correct' family unit ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
Movie was good. The first act was easily the best part, and I think the film would've been a bit stronger had we gotten to spend more time in that world before jumping into the real world. Would've loved one more quiet conversation between Thomas and Tiffany, at least, and would've liked more hopping through doors in cool locations with the new crew and fleshing them out a bit. My biggest complaint is around clarity when it came to rules. If you're going to change the rules of the world, I think you need to be crystal clear about how things have changed. I needed more clarity around portals, mirrors, jacking out of the matrix, the NPC bots, etc. The entire third act I wasn't really sure what the stakes were, because I had no idea what they were running for or towards. Why did Neo and Trinity need to get on the motorcycle and get into a chase? Why did they need to get to the top of the building? Why did they need to jump off? Was that Trinity's equivalent of taking the pill and making a choice because she didn't actually need a tracer program? Were the crew still doing something behind the scenes to wake her up so that they needed to kill time? And a bunch of things like that throughout the movie which muddled stakes for me. I'm sure a rewatch could illuminate some answers if I pay closer attention to just those concepts, but what was so great about the first movie is that these rules were made crystal clear—if you didn't get to a phone before getting jacked out, you're dead. Those chase scenes all made sense because people were running to get to phones. Clear goals, clear rules, clear stakes. Here, everything felt pretty muddled. One thing I haven't heard people talk about which I enjoyed was Lana's commentary around the frustration of making a massively successful beloved piece of subversive art that, well, didn't change the world, and then just watching the world get worse in the intervening decades. I think a huge strength of this film is that while on the whole it's quite optimistic, it also takes a very realistic and even outright cynical view of humanity at times—recognizing the naivete that the end of Revolutions was a happy ending, that once inequities are resolved that all humans and machines wouldn't just come together and live in harmony. That a lot of people just gave up fighting and turned over and let themselves be enslaved. It felt like it connected to our reality today really well, and I wish the story had dug a little more into that. I would've loved to see humans inside the matrix getting in the way of the protagonists because they saw them as disruptive of the comfortable status quo or whatever. I also agree about being a tad bothered by the optics of the therapy/meds/suicide stuff in the moment, especially knowing folks who have had dissociative episodes. But ultimately I don't think there's much criticism to be had there, since the context is so specifically tied to Neo's situation. Plus, not to assume about Lana herself, but I can imagine a trans woman in the 90s and early 00s having had a really bad time with therapists and medications and being told to doubt and deny what you feel inside. Overall it was a solid flick that I wish had a tad bit more time to bake, or didn't have to deal with complications around pandemic filming. And I'm really, really glad this got made instead of Zack Penn's Young Morpheus prequel. e: Also a little moment I loved was Niobe shutting Neo down for trying to take away Bugs' agency. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:17
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:The entire third act I wasn't really sure what the stakes were, because I had no idea what they were running for or towards. Why did Neo and Trinity need to get on the motorcycle and get into a chase? Why did they need to get to the top of the building? They don't need phones to escape anymore, they can do it through panes (glass, mirrors, etc.) However the Swarm was intentionally shattering viable escapes (the operator dude says this as they're running) so effectively Trinity and Neo were just trying to get to somewhere they could escape. feedmyleg posted:Why did they need to jump off? Was that Trinity's equivalent of taking the pill and making a choice because she didn't actually need a tracer program? Were the crew still doing something behind the scenes to wake her up so that they needed to kill time? Trinity's choice was turning back as she was about to leave. And they needed to jump off because they were cornered, it just also was a symbolic moment of "We'll live or die together" that also allowed Trinity to achieve apotheosis.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:18
|
|
|
Oh yeah we havent even touched on how the big bad is a therapist who prescribes the blue pill in buckets.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:21
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:They don't need phones to escape anymore, they can do it through panes (glass, mirrors, etc.) However the Swarm was intentionally shattering viable escapes (the operator dude says this as they're running) so effectively Trinity and Neo were just trying to get to somewhere they could escape. That's what I figured, but it's so vague that it didn't read as correct to me. In the trilogy they had operators who told them exactly where to go, and when they got there the audience had a ringing phone so we understood the geography extremely well. In contrast, this just felt like they needed to go... literally anywhere as long as there was a mirror there? Couldn't they have, like, gone into a bathroom in that building instead of to the rooftop? I mean, I get it from a storytelling and thematic standpoint, but from a world rules perspective it just seems way too fuzzy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
Despera posted:Oh yeah we havent even touched on how the big bad is a therapist who prescribes the blue pill in buckets. I can absolutely understand why this is problematic for people but I think you need the actual context behind hit. The Analyst is not helping nor is he trying to help. Instead he is telling someone who is suffering from depression and identity issues that everything they feel is fake and isn't there, and that you just need to medicate that away. It isn't being anti-medication, it's specifically focusing on the fact that instead of being there to help he's there to tell Neo all of his thoughts, feelings, and emotions are wrong and he doesn't REALLY feel that way, it's just because he isn't medicated enough. And if you've been in therapy or had identity issues then there is a good chance you've encountered therapists like that. Ones who basically are dismissive and rejecting of what you tell them. There is a reason that "find the right therapist" is an important thing anyone in therapy needs to do and the treatment Neo got felt incredibly loving familiar to me, to the point I got genuinely anxious watching the scene because I have had a therapist like that. More to the point he isn't a real therapist. He is a (metaphorical and literal) rich douchebag who is gaslighting Neo in an attempt to make him not question the problems he has with the world or his life. He isn't there to help Neo, to make his problems better, or to try to improve his life. Here is there to turn the maximum profit possible without care to Neo's health or wellbeing. He is the personification of data collection basically whose only end goal is to 'sell' Neo whatever makes him the most money. If it was an actual therapist and they presented it that way it would be one thing, but I don't think a rich gaslighting shithead doing everything possible to avoid helping in any way is meant to represent therapy or medication as a whole. feedmyleg posted:That's what I figured, but it's so vague that it didn't read as correct to me. In the trilogy they had operators who told them exactly where to go, and when they got there the audience had a ringing phone so we understood the geography extremely well. In contrast, this just felt like they needed to go... literally anywhere as long as there was a mirror there? Couldn't they have, like, gone into a bathroom in that building instead of to the rooftop? I mean, I get it from a storytelling and thematic standpoint, but from a world rules perspective it just seems way too fuzzy. I think the problem is that they really didn't have time to stop. The moment they slowed down they were swarmed. It wasn't so much they had a plan as they had no real choice since if they stayed still they were going to die. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:28
|
|
|
Gatts posted:
YAM3 is very good in everything and I like him a lot. That being said I would hope they would have a better reason for recasting Morpheus and Smith than anything that was in that movie because it still makes no sense and it was very distracting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:31
|
|
|
One thing I noticed was the lack of non-score music in this one. I guess that was mostly the case with Matrix 2 and 3 as well but Matrix 1 had such a banger of a soundtrack that both referenced and informed a lot of what I was listening to in 1999. I'm curious what ends up on this one besides that Rage cover at the end.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:38
|
|
|
flashy_mcflash posted:One thing I noticed was the lack of non-score music in this one. I guess that was mostly the case with Matrix 2 and 3 as well but Matrix 1 had such a banger of a soundtrack that both referenced and informed a lot of what I was listening to in 1999. I'm curious what ends up on this one besides that Rage cover at the end. "White Rabbit" was in it, but yeah I don't remember anything besides that. Would have been funny to replace the club beats from the original with coffee shop indie rock.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:44
|
|
|
How are therapist supposed to handle total psychotic breaks, by the way? Like if someone truly believed they could see the code behind reality and they barely escaped a firefight that never took place.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:44
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I can absolutely understand why this is problematic for people but I think you need the actual context behind hit. I think its far more likely that the simpler explanation is that the movie is saying "Psychiatry is a tool of the system to keep you a docile productive zombie who will eventually launch oneself out a window anyway." I don't know how you could go through this movie and think that medication is a good thing. A major plot point is when neo stop taking his meds.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:49
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:"White Rabbit" was in it, but yeah I don't remember anything besides that. Would have been funny to replace the club beats from the original with coffee shop indie rock. I feel like a bunch of artists would probably be super on board to do a song for a Matrix movie? It doesn't make or break the movie or anything but having White Zombie, Propellerheads, Massive Attack etc in Matrix 1 really added to the vibe. I get why there would be less licensed music in 2 and 3 since so much of it takes place out of the Matrix, but so much of this one does that some actual songs would've been welcome.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:50
|
|
|
Despera posted:I think its far more likely that the simpler explanation is that the movie is saying "Psychiatry is a tool of the system to keep you a docile productive zombie who will eventually launch oneself out a window anyway." Because the specific point is that the medication doesn't come with any life changes or recognition of his issues, just "take the meds and shut up." That isn't therapy. Like it's a commentary on medication instead of actual support but that isn't the same as being anti-medication in general.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:52
|
|
|
lunar detritus posted:I was rewatching it and I have no idea how people can say that Keanu can't act. His complete despair during the first act, his disassociation, it's all The melancholy he brought this time around was really good. As someone who's 'made it' in the tech industry I can safely say that seeing keanu soaking in a tub while having a rubber duck on his head perfectly captures how great material success means about jack poo poo all in the great scheme of things.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:54
|
|
|
Excited for the discourse when an extremely stupid person reads the therapy/pills as allegorical for vaccination
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:54
|
|
|
*goon concentrating extremely hard* psychiatrists...can be bad? must be a scientologist
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:57
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Because the specific point is that the medication doesn't come with any life changes or recognition of his issues, just "take the meds and shut up." That isn't therapy. Like it's a commentary on medication instead of actual support but that isn't the same as being anti-medication in general. He goes from suicidal to a literal loving god after telling his therapist and medications to shove it. The final scene is him blowing up his therapists office and killing him. This movie is very very anti psychiatry.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:58
|
|
|
Despera posted:He goes from suicidal to a literal loving god after telling his therapist and medications to shove it. The final scene is him blowing up his therapists office and killing him. This movie is very very anti psychiatry. ... Uh, I don't think you watched the same movie as everyone else. Literally none of those things happen in the film. In fact several are the exact opposite of plot points in the film. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Dec 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 03:59
|
|
|
The Analyst is a poo poo therapist that made Neo's mental health issues worse by mindlessly tossing medication at it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:01
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:... Uh, I don't think you watched the same movie as everyone else. He prescribed the blue pill didnt he? Doubled it up. I was under the impression the red pill was the good one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
Despera posted:He prescribed the blue pill didnt he? Doubled it up. I was under the impression the red pill was the good one. No, I'm talking about Neo becoming a god after he didn't take the blue pills, when a significant plot point is that he no longer had that power or capability anymore. The only thing that gives him that power is a loving connection with someone close to him, not the red pill or blue pill. Or him 'blowing up his Therapist's office' which doesn't happen. Trinity does kill him a couple of times but that is specifically Trinity responding to the treatment he gave her not as a therapist (he wasn't her therapist) but as a patriarchal figure and she brings him back afterwards, with her and Neo going together to make the sky rainbows. Like again the point is that this dude is not a therapist. He is very explicitly a capitalist. He literally talks about maximum profit for minimal cost without a care for the human suffering involved. That is his entire thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:04
|
|
|
The Analyst's purpose isn't really to get Keanu sane, but mostly to keep the insanity machine running. The movie is fairly explicit that getting Keanu extremely emotional and in this mental state is what makes the most power from him which is why it's designed that his boss is a blue-pilled Smith, and Trinity is actually married to a guy named Chad and they have kids. The point is that by having this Matrix rub in Neo's face how fake everything is, it makes him go nuts, gets him maximally engaged, which is what gets the juice. At least that's what I got from it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:06
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:No, I'm talking about Neo becoming a god after he didn't take the blue pills, when a significant plot point is that he no longer had that power or capability anymore. Or him 'blowing up his Therapist's office' which doesn't happen. Trinity does kill him a couple of times but that is specifically Trinity responding to the treatment he gave her not as a therapist (he wasn't her therapist) but as a patriarchal figure and she brings him back afterwards, with her and Neo going together to make the sky rainbows. The final scene takes place in his blown up office? You want the context to be he's a capitalist but he is a therapist first. He is evil and he prescribes the evil medications. "But she really meant...." is just stretching.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
Think Less posted:movie owned. action scenes were the weakest part of the movie by far, but i also think wachowski wouldn't have included them if she was able to 100% make the movie she wanted to make Seriously, the action sequences were extremely rote and got in the way of an interesting story. Give me an existential horror film where an unstable Neo has to convince a happily married Trinity that everything is a lie and they once had a life together.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
Despera posted:The final scene takes place in his blown up office? No he isn't. That's the entire point. He is a capitalist first! That is the entire point! He isn't a real therapist! He never acts as a real therapist! He is only there to make money off Neo. If they wanted Therapy Is Evil then they wouldn't have made it 100% clear the therapist is not a real therapist.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
How is criticizing lovely things actual lovely therapist do anti-therapy in general? There's an issue with systemic racism and sexism in the medical field, but I wouldn't call a movie criticizing that anti-Doctor
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 01:23 |
|
|
Panzeh posted:The Analyst's purpose isn't really to get Keanu sane, but mostly to keep the insanity machine running. It's okay to say this!
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2021 04:10
|
|