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Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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| Black Beauty |
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2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
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4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
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117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
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11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
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54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
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So if omi ends up overwhelming the health are systems, do yall think we will see new rules sending the unvaxinated to the end of the line?
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Dec 25, 2021 05:06
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How are u posted:So if omi ends up overwhelming the health are systems, do yall think we will see new rules sending the unvaxinated to the end of the line? 1) assuming you mean "wilfully unvaccinated" here 2) that seems like a good way to cause an Active Shooting There are already multiple documented instances of violence against HCW, that rule would accelerate things further
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Dec 25, 2021 05:22
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Isentropy posted:2) that seems like a good way to cause an Active Shooting Add it to the list next to "doing literally anything in traffic" and "taking too long at the self checkout in the grocery store" or "literally no reason at all"
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Dec 25, 2021 05:35
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How are u posted:So if omi ends up overwhelming the health are systems, do yall think we will see new rules sending the unvaxinated to the end of the line? To declare a punitive exception to triage is not only counter to the entire concept of triage, it flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath itself. Let me know how you think it will go to tell medical professionals that their profession is now driven by the philosophy of spite
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Dec 25, 2021 05:36
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How are u posted:So if omi ends up overwhelming the health are systems, do yall think we will see new rules sending the unvaxinated to the end of the line? You mean independently of their likelihood of survival? Seems difficult to prove even if it were happening and equally difficult to do purposely without optimizing recoveries. Anyway, speaking of overwhelmed hospitals, the CDC's new guidance is... interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/Jasperlope/status/1474166339245772802 I mean maybe some of those guidelines are the best of bad options in worst case scenarios that ought to at least be planned for, but yeesh.
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Dec 25, 2021 05:52
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A big flaming stink posted:To declare a punitive exception to triage is not only counter to the entire concept of triage, it flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath itself. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 07:35
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I'd be fine with the CDC guidelines as long as unvaxxed/sick healthcare workers are limited to working with patients battling an active case of covid. And kept from walking literally anywhere else in the hospital.
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Dec 25, 2021 08:27
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HolHorsejob posted:I'd be fine with the CDC guidelines as long as unvaxxed/sick healthcare workers are limited to working with patients battling an active case of covid. And kept from walking literally anywhere else in the hospital. Yeah they're all gonna be eating lunch in the same break from
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Dec 25, 2021 08:39
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Despite taking all the precautions and getting both vaccines and the booster shot, I just tested positive for COVID after a ton of rough symptoms. The only weakness in my plan was an anti-vax roommate of mine whom I had been actively avoiding for weeks since I heard him hacking up a lung in his room most nights. He's still going into work and insists on not getting a test after I told him(rather pointedly) that I tested positive, AND is inviting random people into the house. I'm a little scared, honestly, about my short-term health. I'm reminding myself the odds of hospitalization is low...but honestly how do you deal with dipshits like my roommate whose minds can't even be changed other than by avoiding them? This new variant is going to spread like wildfire as long as people like him exist. It isn't like we can ask our landlords to kick them out, there's no legal grounds. I'm just loving pissed, honestly, but wanted to grant some anecdotal perspective on why isolating doesn't even work in every circumstance in the U.S. If people like my roommate are common in this country, we're going to be hosed over here in the states for a while. Precautions are useless if your neighbor is ignoring them.
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Dec 25, 2021 08:51
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eXXon posted:You mean independently of their likelihood of survival? Seems difficult to prove even if it were happening and equally difficult to do purposely without optimizing recoveries. It's a tweet from a nobody with an out of context screenshot of part of the press release, not the actual guidance, which has much more detail. Think about how you encountered the tweet, and why you believed it, and why you reposted it without checking the original source.
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Dec 25, 2021 08:58
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I just saw Denmark is 80% double vaccinated and 40% booster, so our stats are going to deviate from a population where booster uptake is lower, I guess. Pleas e think nice thoughts for my GF who is out today administering vaccines on Christmas Day.
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Dec 25, 2021 09:34
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a tweet from a nobody with an out of context screenshot of part of the press release, not the actual guidance, which has much more detail. I just read the entire guidance and I think that tweet is an accurate summary of the entire guidance. The CDC is at least pretending to care about healthcare workers in non-contingency situations but hospitals aren't seeing a non-contingency situation any time soon.
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Dec 25, 2021 09:45
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slorb posted:I just read the entire guidance and I think that tweet is an accurate summary of the entire guidance. The CDC is at least pretending to care about healthcare workers in non-contingency situations but hospitals aren't seeing a non-contingency situation any time soon. Okay so that doesn't even reflect what the tweet itself says, which uses "is there...any other help coming?" to imply no other action is being taken. It also elides all the specifics of how the guidelines actually describe minimizing risk.
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Dec 25, 2021 09:54
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The big UK Cases peak for Delta in 2020 started on the 12th December from around 19k cases, to 29th December peaking at 81k cases per day. The hospitalisations start to see rapid growth from Christmas day - around 2000 to 4000 by the 4th Jan, which at the point the Healthcare system was starting to really reach breaking point. The big UK cases peak for Omicron started in 2021 started on the 11th December from 46k per day to now where we're around 120k per day. Based on that, we're around the time that hospitilisations will start to grow rapidly based on the delay. They're current at 1000, up from 750ish in October, but they were also at around 1000 during August despite vaccinations being completed by that point as a whole. At the moment, there hasn't been any significant growth to hospitlisations above the baseline we were currently suffering from Delta yet, but I guess it'll be obvious within the next week whether that holds true or not. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
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Dec 25, 2021 10:02
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Some interesting data on why omicron variant preferentially infects the upper airway, and further down a good point that it could mutate back. I'm unclear whether the mutation conferring preference for ACE2-only is driven by existing immunity but it would make sense. https://mobile.twitter.com/GuptaR_lab/status/1474147490765185026
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Dec 25, 2021 10:06
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Discendo Vox posted:Okay so that doesn't even reflect what the tweet itself says, which uses "is there...any other help coming?" to imply no other action is being taken. It also elides all the specifics of how the guidelines actually describe minimizing risk. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. The CDC guidelines are being changed to reflect the reality that a lot of hospital systems are permanently understaffed and therefore were already forcing healthcare workers back to work well before the required 10 days and were discouraging their staff from being tested so they didn't enter the protocol in the first place. Healthcare workers are angry that the CDC is giving its stamp of approval to a scummy hospital administrator practice which puts them at risk.
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Dec 25, 2021 10:23
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Rust Martialis posted:Pleas e think nice thoughts for my GF who is out today administering vaccines on Christmas Day. Thank her for her service
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Dec 25, 2021 13:15
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How are u posted:So if omi ends up overwhelming the health are systems, do yall think we will see new rules sending the unvaxinated to the end of the line? Not in the us, because death panels!!!!! Mind you ecmo and transplant canidates are already being screened for vaccine status, and anyone unvaccinated is not eligible. Ecmo alone is already selective as hell because it basically revolves on the issue being your lungs largely and the older the patient the slimmer the chances. And transplant lists are refusing because well. Once you get a transplant the effectiveness of a new vaccine is basically negligible because of the immunosuppressants. And alot of transplant patients that get covid are dying because of that.
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Dec 25, 2021 13:41
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A big flaming stink posted:To declare a punitive exception to triage is not only counter to the entire concept of triage, it flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath itself. Uh, triage is literally provide care to the most people, and most people that aren't blinded by the ideals taught in school recognize that in times of crisis that we have to give care to the most people and not only focus on patients that may not make it. Most hcw are trained in mass casualty events which are based off the start triage system, and it's literally what hospitals in new York were doing during the first wave, Italy was doing the same. Idaho enacted a universal dnr for a bit also. Literally healthcare has the ability to say that patients that are obviously not going to make it will be made dnr cc, and given comfort measures in order to pass humanely instead of just keeping a rotting body alive wasting resources. The issue is doing so is a massive issue that will have people screaming about death panels and trying to kill healthcare workers. And takes an absolute ruling from either government or actual crisis enactments. As it is, if there is obvious signs that any further treatment is futile doctors have the ability to make a patient dnr over family objections. Or just say slow code the patient because this is inhumane. But triage exists, and literally you will see it if things get overwhelming because there's only so many vents, so many iv systems, so many resources. A patient that will take 10 highly limited things and has a 1% chance of recovery will be triaged in order to allow ten patients to have access to those resources to survive. It happens and has happened. It's not going against a Hippocratic oath, because if you decide to save one by killing ten others that could have been saved, you already did worse. Ideas like that are childish bullshit that television and things like nursing school put in people's head, and reality and actual medicine experience teaches you that it's fairy dust poo poo. You have 3 patients coding, and ones been down for 50 minutes and the other 2 down for 10 with pea your gonna work the viable patients and let the other be called because you don't have the resources or personal to work the guy down for so long and have a .01% of even getting rosc. No this is not a dig at you, it's an actual issue that tv and programs teach new workers that I actually had an argument about in class with classmates because they did not want to grasp the reality that new York was last year, ie hospitals literally having so many patients that they had someone die, cleaned the bed and popped someone else in and all they did chart wise was date of admission and date of death, that's it. Welcome to triage. It's not meant to be pretty or humane, it's meant to use the resources you have to help the most people, not use all the resources to maybe save one. UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 13:51
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Weasling Weasel posted:The big UK Cases peak for Delta in 2020 started on the 12th December from around 19k cases, to 29th December peaking at 81k cases per day. The hospitalisations start to see rapid growth from Christmas day - around 2000 to 4000 by the 4th Jan, which at the point the Healthcare system was starting to really reach breaking point. For what it's worth, if you look at just London the slope looks a bit more ominous https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nhsRegion%26areaName=London Similar in NYC. But even in these population dense areas the new cases line is nearly vertical and hospitalizations is... well, not looking good, but certainly not vertical. So we'll just have to wait and see
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Dec 25, 2021 14:34
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PT6A posted:Well, okay, the most optimistic study so far has shown a reduction of 70% in hospital admissions versus other strains. That's very good, but we've had cases increase a lot more than that. We're far worse off than we were a month ago even if it's a significantly less severe virus and/or mitigated by higher rates of immunity from vaccination and/or prior infection, and if it continues to spread at this rate, even a huge reduction in severity is not going to be enough to deal with the resulting mortality and morbidity and suffering. We might well be witnessing the end of the pandemic instead of its most dire phase.
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Dec 25, 2021 15:17
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Apologies if I missed this, but I found this really interesting explanation of part of the observed precipitous drop in VE, to the point of negative VE: https://twitter.com/dibbeke1/status/1474251186127712300 i.e., vaccine requirements are associated with riskier behaviors in urban centers; riskier behaviors in urban centers were hit earliest and hardest by immune evasive variant; VE could conceivably go negative as an epidemiological matter even though it's not "the vaccines make you more likely to become sick." Also, I wish I had seen this convo between Bleicher and Mina a few days earlier: https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1472992860727390208
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Dec 25, 2021 15:18
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a tweet from a nobody with an out of context screenshot of part of the press release, not the actual guidance, which has much more detail. Wow you're right, I didn't find a single tweet that summarizes all of the guidance (because the CDC didn't post one), and instead posted one reply that cites a specific aspect of it and presents a reasonable objection similar to the one I outlined in my reply. You really got me there. Discendo Vox posted:Okay so that doesn't even reflect what the tweet itself says, which uses "is there...any other help coming?" to imply no other action is being taken. It also elides all the specifics of how the guidelines actually describe minimizing risk. It's pretty fair to ask what is being done to solve healthcare worker shortages besides allowing recently-infected workers to return sooner. Maybe it's not the CDC's job to do that, but asking is not unreasonable, nor is stating that this is putting more of a burden on existing workers, many of whom are probably already burned out after the first 1-3 waves. e: and to answer the question, the NYT wrote about this exact topic today: NYT posted:Facing urgent concerns about hospital staffing shortages, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention this week shortened the isolation periods for infected health care workers, allowing them to return to the job in seven days, instead of 10. President Biden also said that 1,000 military doctors, nurses, paramedics and other medical personnel would be deployed to shore up staffing levels at hospitals in the coming weeks. There's more in that article but anyway I think healthcare workers are pretty justified in being wary of those guidelines if this is what they're dealing with before the likely peak of hospitalizations. And apparently deploying the National Guard is at least one of the reasonable alternatives (but presumably not a tenable long-term solution). Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 15:20
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eXXon posted:
How many doctors and nurses are there in the National Guard?
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Dec 25, 2021 15:56
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speng31b posted:For what it's worth, if you look at just London the slope looks a bit more ominous The hospitalisations in London are growing exponentially. Switch it to a log scale. It’s a straight line.
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Dec 25, 2021 16:39
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CottonWolf posted:The hospitalisations in London are growing exponentially. Switch it to a log scale. It’s a straight line. That has to be expected. Something would be really weird if the case load was exponential while the hospitalization would grow linearly.
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Dec 25, 2021 16:58
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Denmark - 25 December New cases, reinfections, new hospitalizations all dropped again in Denmark. Case rates per 100,000 population trending downwards as Denmark exceeds 40% boosted population. Vents creeping up, possibly since its been 5 days or so since the surge of cases over 10000 a day, maybe? pre:Denmark Covid Cases ------------------------------------ Dec 25 10,027 new cases, 463 reinfections, 86 new hospitalization (522 total), 73 ICU (-1), 44 Vent (+5), 10 dead Dec 24 11,229 new cases, 527 reinfections, 134 new hospitalizations (509 total), 74 ICU (+2), 39 vent (+1), 14 dead Dec 23 12,487 new cases, 613 reinfections, 158 new hospitalizations (541 total), 72 ICU (+6), 38 vent (+1), 15 dead Dec 22 13,386 new cases, 531 reinfections, 126 new hospitalization (524 total), 66 ICU (-1), 37 vent(+2), 14 dead Dec 21 13,558 new cases, 501 reinfections, 121 new hospitalization (526 total), 67 ICU (+1), 35 vent(+2) , 17 dead Dec 20 10,082 (553 hospitalized) Dec 19 8,212 Dec 18 8,594 Dec 17 11,194 Dec 16 9,999 Dec 15 8,773 pre:Unvaccinated Partial Full Unvaccinated Partial Full 25 DEC New cases: 181.6 162.1 161.5 Hospitalizations: 33.9 16.0 6.8 24 DEC New cases: 184.1 173.0 182.1 Hospitalizations: 34.5 14.9 7.1 23 DEC New cases: 237.1 202.6 197.9 Hospitalizations: 35.4 16.2 7.5 22 DEC New cases: 257.1 198.1 211.7 Hospitalizations: 34.2 15.3 7.3 21 DEC New cases: 270.1 226.2 207.8 Hospitalizations: 32.9 14.3 7.5 Todays totals show Denmark hit: 1.77% on 1 December 4.8% on 6 December 10.17% on 8 December 22.06% on 12 December 37.97% on 14 December 50% on 17 December 60% on 20 December 70%+ on 21 December [/pre] Sources: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/242ec2acc014456295189631586f1d26 https://covid19.ssi.dk/virusvarianter/delta-pcr Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 17:42
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A big flaming stink posted:To declare a punitive exception to triage is not only counter to the entire concept of triage, it flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath itself. People who are vaccinated have better outcomes when they contract COVID and the vaccinated who are hospitalized will be more likely to recover when given medical treatment than the non vaccinated. What exactly do you think triage is?
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Dec 25, 2021 17:46
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A big flaming stink posted:To declare a punitive exception to triage is not only counter to the entire concept of triage, it flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath itself. Judging by the heartwrenching personal accounts coming out from healthcare workers of all types of being assaulted and harangued and stalked and spit on etc etc, I would kind of figure they would be all-in on 'the philosophy of spite' haha. At a certain point we're going to have to go ahead and acknowledge that the willfully-unvaccinated have done this to themselves, I reckon.
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Dec 25, 2021 17:58
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Petey posted:i.e., vaccine requirements are associated with riskier behaviors in urban centers; riskier behaviors in urban centers were hit earliest and hardest by immune evasive variant; VE could conceivably go negative as an epidemiological matter even though it's not "the vaccines make you more likely to become sick." It's meaningless to talk about relative risk (i.e. vaccine effectiveness) if the populations are completely different. I don't think the authors can handwave it away with ah but this is epidemiology. Admittedly I did my MPH a while ago. Presumably the rest of the data is also confounded to gently caress.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:00
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Uh, triage is literally provide care to the most people, and most people that aren't blinded by the ideals taught in school recognize that in times of crisis that we have to give care to the most people and not only focus on patients that may not make it. Most hcw are trained in mass casualty events which are based off the start triage system, and it's literally what hospitals in new York were doing during the first wave, Italy was doing the same. Idaho enacted a universal dnr for a bit also. You aren't disagreeing with A big flaming stink. They were talking about A big flaming stink posted:a punitive exception to triage ie, ignoring the actual expected outcomes of patients and instead basing treatment in part on whether or not patients "did the right thing" and got vaccinated.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:05
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Gripweed posted:You aren't disagreeing with A big flaming stink. They were talking about Public health has always used carrots and sticks, and actual hands on medicine is just a technique serving the broader state aims of public health, so why not move some of the sticks down to where they do the most good?
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Dec 25, 2021 18:12
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Gripweed posted:You aren't disagreeing with A big flaming stink. They were talking about Those things aren't independent though. Unless you want to argue that vaccination has an adverse to the expected outcome, prioritizing vaccinated people is clearly the most effective strategy, to save as many people as fast as possible.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:13
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cant cook creole bream posted:Those things aren't independent though. Unless you want to argue that vaccination has an adverse to the expected outcome, prioritizing vaccinated people is clearly the most effective strategy, to save as many people as fast as possible. By the time someone is in an emergency room, you don't need to triage on super rough categorization like that, because you have the patient right in front of you. Unvaccinated people have worse outcomes in general, but there's absolutely unvaccinated people who respond well to treatment.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:17
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Personally, I think ventilated, unvaccinated patients should be booted out of the ICU instead of denying care to people with a chance of recovering but that's apparently an extreme view of triage vs. only doing it at admittance.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:19
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Wang Commander posted:Public health has always used carrots and sticks, and actual hands on medicine is just a technique serving the broader state aims of public health, so why not move some of the sticks down to where they do the most good? This is clearly not about doing good, its about punishing people for not getting vaccinated. The people who aren't vaccinated, pretty much by definition, aren't scared of Covid. Or at the very least are more concerned about the vaccine than about Covid. So saying "if you don't get vaccinated you will be in the last in line to get treatment for Covid" is not going to be a great motivator. If anything it's far more likely to decrease trust in the vaccines and the government. It's not a good proposal if your goal has anything to do with health. I find it hard to believe it would actually more vaccination rates up a significant amount. And as Enki42 said, enki42 posted:By the time someone is in an emergency room, you don't need to triage on super rough categorization like that, because you have the patient right in front of you. Unvaccinated people have worse outcomes in general, but there's absolutely unvaccinated people who respond well to treatment. vaccination status wouldn't really enter into triage of actual patients. It's a proposal purely to punish a group of people you feel deserve punishment.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:27
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Gripweed posted:vaccination status wouldn't really enter into triage of actual patients. It's a proposal purely to punish a group of people you feel deserve punishment. Their outcomes are immaterial here, though I wish them all the worst. Mostly I think we need to get them out of the hospitals because they're the ones causing ICUs to fill up and nurses to quit. They're weakening the whole country at a time where we have credible peer rivals who are taking advantage of our domestic chaos.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:45
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FWIW I think it's less about "moralizing" or "punishment" so much as wondering what the gently caress you do about the absolutely unsustainable pressure they are putting on the healthcare system. Obviously the solutions to this need to come from systemic change and likely large amounts of government intervention, but I'm not holding my breath for that happening in the US. I don't see a good solution anytime soon. On that note, Merry Christmas goons, and please try to be a little kinder and more understanding of each other in the spirit of presents or whatever the reason for the season is. Try not to read the worst possible intentions into every post and try to empathize with people you may not agree with.
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Dec 25, 2021 18:46
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Tiny Timbs posted:Personally, I think ventilated, unvaccinated patients should be booted out of the ICU instead of denying care to people with a chance of recovering but that's apparently an extreme view of triage vs. only doing it at admittance. Gripweed posted:It's a proposal purely to punish a group of people you feel deserve punishment. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 18:48
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eXXon posted:Wow you're right, I didn't find a single tweet that summarizes all of the guidance (because the CDC didn't post one), and instead posted one reply that cites a specific aspect of it and presents a reasonable objection similar to the one I outlined in my reply. You really got me there. It's not even a screenshot of the guidance, it's a screenshot of the press release. You can, in fact, read the actual guidance. You can, in fact, quote and contextualize the actual guidance. eXXon posted:It's pretty fair to ask what is being done to solve healthcare worker shortages besides allowing recently-infected workers to return sooner. Maybe it's not the CDC's job to do that, but asking is not unreasonable, nor is stating that this is putting more of a burden on existing workers, many of whom are probably already burned out after the first 1-3 waves. "@Jasperlope 🐶+Sparks🐶 | Bay Area Game Dev | Cute Furry stuff + exasperated political stuff | 🔞may be lewd, fair warning" is not a healthcare worker. The CDC is not able to deploy the national guard. "just asking questions" and assigning them to the CDC is in no way a fair interpretation or application of mediating the guidance press release.
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Dec 25, 2021 19:10
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