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The most generous reading of Fordola's misguided actions is that she was trying to encourage everyone to stay in line and stop making waves so they could assimilate properly into being citizens of a Garlean controlled state. I have no doubt there's no small part of lashing out against society for murdering her father for trying to do the same. That being said, it is worth noting she's still a dumb teenager who probably drank a lot of the Gaius Kool Aid in addition to serving under Zenos "boy, I sure love inciting random violence" yae Galvus. And she is also absolutely not forgiven for all of the bullshit she did in addition to watching all of her friends die for their foolishness AND being stuck with a magic power that constantly reminds her that everyone hates her guts. At best, you get a few people sympathetic to the fact that she wound up licking boot for the empire and trying to turn her away from that mentality. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 21:36
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Fordola’s brain isn’t done cooking. Seal her record.
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Dec 25, 2021 21:38
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sirtommygunn posted:I'm going through the 4.1 story now. The treasure hunt was a nice bit of fun, and it was good to see Nanamo making a real effort to learn how to do politics. I also liked seeing how plans were being made to restart the Ala Mighan economy and get their refugees back home. Given we live in the world and times we do, I get why you might not want to extend any amount of understanding or even think it's in good taste, but FFXIV does often grapple with histories of colonization and imperialism and--more importantly--the tolls they take upon the occupied. Fordola and her squad have grown up in an occupied Ala Mhigo and been subject to abuse from their supposed countrymen for the knees their parents bent, and from the Garleans for supposedly being lesser while also being raised in an environment assuredly rife with Imperial propaganda. They created the Crania Lupi to try and earn standing, believing Ala Mhigo would never be free and that they could ultimately earn respect for themselves and their country. The game is not asking you to forgive her, but to understand that this is what imperialism does, that it is one of the way it breaks individuals and whole peoples. Not to excuse her actions, but to understand that she was a victim of the occupation too.
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Dec 25, 2021 21:41
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The entire theme of Stormblood is "fantasy world never had Nuremberg trials" and I don't give a poo poo who says otherwise.
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Dec 25, 2021 21:42
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"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is a cliche for a reason. (SB, 4.1) Fordola and her friends sign up for imperial service because, like many of the rest of those who collaborate, they see it as the only way to achieve security and pride in a society that actively despises them, and from which escape or change seems otherwise impossible. Like Joshua Graham, her fall is a series of small self-justifying steps that lead to a great fall: she becomes a leader to protect those under her charge and to try and lead them to a respectable position in what seems to them to be a permanent state of affairs, and becoming a leader under an imperial occupation necessarily means having to carry out increasingly debased and terrible orders, all of which are backended by the increasingly distant goal you once had that's becoming further and further removed from the reality in which you live. None of the writing in the game is saying that you have to forgive Fordola, nor do any of the characters in the story. It is saying that continuing the cycles of violence for the sole means of bloody revenge may not be the best way to restore a shattered society, especially one in which so many actively collaborated for one reason or another, and that you can have compassion and understanding without necessarily having absolution. You may not choose to forgive, but you can still choose to forget.
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Dec 25, 2021 21:59
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Ironslave posted:The game is not asking you to forgive her, but to understand that this is what imperialism does, that it is one of the way it breaks individuals and whole peoples. Not to excuse her actions, but to understand that she was a victim of the occupation too. Also I'm pretty sure Fordola herself doesn't want anyone to forgive her.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:01
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*points to the sign*
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Dec 25, 2021 22:06
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I forgive Fordola anyway
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Dec 25, 2021 22:11
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that's not a sign, that's a video
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Dec 25, 2021 22:11
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DACK FAYDEN posted:The entire theme of Stormblood is "fantasy world never had Nuremberg trials" and I don't give a poo poo who says otherwise. I mean the Nuremberg trials ended up pretty half-assed and poo poo.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:11
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Not really my favorite character but the messaging was pretty clear in that scene to me. "I'm thanking you for your actions at this moment, even if I still hate everything you've done prior to this point, haven't forgiven you, and don't like you, personally." That he doesn't say "gently caress you I didn't want to be saved by you" isn't really him handing it to ISIL.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:19
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Fordola has a very good character arc. Contrast that with 4.3 with Yotsuyu basically getting given a free pass for all her boundless supply of war crimes due to temporary amnesia despite being a total sociopath who takes her grudge against her poo poo parents and step-brother and basically decides to make an entire country pay for her poo poo childhood in the most personal and painful manner because she saw a man dying on the road nad realized that she likes hurting people.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:24
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IMO the 19 year old should be forgiven.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:25
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PlasticAutomaton posted:Fordola has a very good character arc. Yotsuyu wasn't a child when she was legally sold to a brothel. edit: Or when her husband beat the poo poo out of her and everyone in high society just politely looked the other way. I don't think the game ever gives her a pass, a big part of the amnesia thing feels very much like illustrating that no one is just born inherently evil. TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 22:29
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Argas posted:I mean the Nuremberg trials ended up pretty half-assed and poo poo.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:30
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Regy Rusty posted:I forgive Fordola anyway This. Fordola's extremely cool.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:30
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Why did this child who saw her dad beaten to death infront of her, decide she hated her countrymen for treating her like poo poo, and join the bad guys when she was like 14. She should be murdered instead for not lying down and taking the abuse from other ala migans quite frankly.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:34
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personally I think that feeling bad* for people who get swept up in awful regimes is important, because it helps remind you that they're just people and your own friends, family, and self are not immune from being shaped by forces outside your control into doing awful things *feeling bad isn't the same thing as forgiveness
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Dec 25, 2021 22:34
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I completely understand that Fordola as a person was largely formed by her environment, and that there is tragedy in her becoming that person. I know that you can't just build a unified nation on the blood of your old enemies. I completely understand - and agree with - the messages surrounding the story of Fordola. My issue is that she is an extremely bad example to use based on her history. Even considering her environment, she still had plenty of room to make less terrible decisions. Even considering how hopeless her situation seemed, she still did everything in her power to keep it from getting better. Even when the alliance was on Ala Mhigo's doorstep, she was still fully on board with slaughtering hundreds for a chance at more power, all in order to STOP the liberation of Ala Mhigo. Her actions show that she has always been full of poo poo when she talks about how it was all for her country. She did not ever have good intentions for anyone but herself. I understand that the writers disagree, but they have done a poor job showing otherwise. The other characters in the story trying to defend this arc also make poor arguments. They largely offer up slippery slope arguments and "we would be just as bad as them if we did an execution" all the while half the MSQ cast is devoting far too much effort to giving Fordola pep talks. We don't need to do an execution, we can just leave her in the cell and forget about her and focus on all the parts of the story of Ala Mhigo that I like, such as building the new economy or negotiating between the various factions in the country. I don't think the writers are doing this all to make a point about how we should forgive nazis. I think they're just in a very unfortunate position where they wanted to tell this story of moving forward, where you have to learn to live alongside some people who have done terrible things in support of the old regime. But the only established character they had who could even slightly fit the mold was Fordola, who for the sake of the previous story needed to do some above and beyond extremely evil poo poo. So the writers here have to maintain an extremely difficult balance in their work, and I don't think they fully succeed, which results in things that look extremely bad. Ok I've rewritten this post like 30 times trying to get to the core of what I think is the real point I'm getting at (still don't think I got there) but I gotta  at some point.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:35
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that spoiler block feels like a reasonable, nuanced complaint that I have a hard time disagreeing with
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Dec 25, 2021 22:37
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I don't really know what other choices she could have reasonably taken, is the thing.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:37
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sirtommygunn posted:Even considering how hopeless her situation seemed, she still did everything in her power to keep it from getting better. Even when the alliance was on Ala Mhigo's doorstep, she was still fully on board with slaughtering hundreds for a chance at more power, all in order to STOP the liberation of Ala Mhigo. (SB MSQ) Ala Mhigo already lived through a previously-failed uprising that was mercilessly and ruthlessly put down, and she knows her head - and the head of all the people under her care - are likely on the chopping block if they lose (and, even if they turned traitor and win, will likely be subject to harsh reprisals). Moreover, her comments to Lyse after the solo duty in Ala Mhigo imply that she knows that Zenos has the power to control a primal, and she's been souped up with an artificial Echo that makes her feel personally invincible. Her actions are not at all unreasonable for someone in her position, even ignoring the entirely understandable emotion of not wanting every horrible thing you did to try and create a better future ending up being for nothing. Vermain fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 25, 2021 |
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Dec 25, 2021 22:40
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Vermain posted:(SB MSQ) Ala Mhigo already lived through a previously-failed uprising that was mercilessly and ruthlessly put down, and she knows her head - and the head of all the people under her care - are likely on the chopping block if they lose. Moreover, her comments to Lyse after the solo duty in Ala Mhigo imply that she knows that Zenos has the power to control a primal. Her actions are not at all unreasonable for someone in her position, even ignoring the entirely understandable emotion of not wanting every horrible thing you did to try and create a better future ended up being for nothing. In addition to this, there is the not-unreasonable fear of what happens if the Garleans do get pushed out and then choose to come back--they are a technologically superior military power. Reoccupation would unquestionably be more awful. It's not enough to just push them out, but to have the strength to keep them out.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:44
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SyntheticPolygon posted:This. Nah, she should have taken the hit so my boy Arenvald could still walk.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:46
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Why did this child who saw her dad beaten to death infront of her, decide she hated her countrymen for treating her like poo poo, and join the bad guys when she was like 14. She should be murdered instead for not lying down and taking the abuse from other ala migans quite frankly. I mean the bad guys also treated her like poo poo and she hated them too. Anyway Fordola's circumstances feel like a genuine consequence of someone being born under imperial rule and living her entire life under it. It feels real, this is a thing that happens in colonised countries and it's really sad and awful. When it wants to Stormblood discusses imperialism and colonisation in ways i'd never expect a game to and it's usually pretty nuanced and interesting. Like the game's actually challenging people to look at what imperial regimes and poo poo do beyond just having a surface level reading. It's good!
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Dec 25, 2021 22:47
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I mean the bad guys also treated her like poo poo and she hated them too. Of course, but you expect the people who invaded your homeland to treat you like poo poo, so it makes sense to me that she'd carry even more resentment towards her own countrymen for what they did to her family. Doesn't matter if they were collaborators or not.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:49
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Seems like a common theme in the story that bad people are often that way because their life has never really given them a chance to be any other way
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Dec 25, 2021 22:51
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Why did this child who saw her dad beaten to death infront of her, decide she hated her countrymen for treating her like poo poo, and join the bad guys when she was like 14. She should be murdered instead for not lying down and taking the abuse from other ala migans quite frankly. Don't post like this. Really gross to just assign me a position that makes me look like an rear end in a top hat. I could just as easily say you're in favor of erasing genocide based on your position, but I know that's not what you actually believe. Try to engage with what I'm actually saying.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:52
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sirtommygunn posted:Don't post like this. Really gross to just assign me a position that makes me look like an rear end in a top hat. I could just as easily say you're in favor of erasing genocide based on your position, but I know that's not what you actually believe. Try to engage with what I'm actually saying. You've been very reasonable even if I disagree with your point, so I apologize! It was a knee jerk reaction to your initial post about the game making you forgive nazis.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:53
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Of course, but you expect the people who invaded your homeland to treat you like poo poo, so it makes sense to me that she'd carry even more resentment towards her own countrymen for what they did to her family. Doesn't matter if they were collaborators or not. Yeah it all makes sense. But like you got Arenvald there who went through similar poo poo (even if its not like discussed as much) and he's nowhere near as much of a hateful bastard so I don't think she needed to go down the path she did, though it's all very easy to understand.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:56
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FuturePastNow posted:Seems like a common theme in the story that bad people are often that way because their life has never really given them a chance to be any other way More or less. Ishikawa is especially good at writing these sorts of villains by giving them just enough pathos to invite to your mind the tragic specter of what might've been had there earlier been a hand extended instead of a fist.
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Dec 25, 2021 22:56
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we have hosed up magic technology (magitech if you will) why don't we give arenvald a loving exoskeleton already!!!
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Dec 25, 2021 22:58
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Ibram Gaunt posted:You've been very reasonable even if I disagree with your point, so I apologize! It was a knee jerk reaction to your initial post about the game making you forgive nazis. Thank you, and I'm sorry that my initial post was so rude. I dropped a fresh, hot, and not at all well thought out take onto the thread and got some heat in return as I should have expected on SA. Even my last post had more sass than was necessary, and I am sorry for that as well.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:00
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Vermain posted:(SB MSQ) Ala Mhigo already lived through a previously-failed uprising that was mercilessly and ruthlessly put down, and she knows her head - and the head of all the people under her care - are likely on the chopping block if they lose (and, even if they turned traitor and win, will likely be subject to harsh reprisals). Moreover, her comments to Lyse after the solo duty in Ala Mhigo imply that she knows that Zenos has the power to control a primal, and she's been souped up with an artificial Echo that makes her feel personally invincible. Her actions are not at all unreasonable for someone in her position, even ignoring the entirely understandable emotion of not wanting every horrible thing you did to try and create a better future ending up being for nothing. Ironslave posted:In addition to this, there is the not-unreasonable fear of what happens if the Garleans do get pushed out and then choose to come back--they are a technologically superior military power. Reoccupation would unquestionably be more awful. It's not enough to just push them out, but to have the strength to keep them out. These posts helped, as well as your previous posts. I'm still not fully on board with all this but I'll give the story a fresh chance in the morning.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:02
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sirtommygunn posted:These posts helped, as well as your previous posts. I'm still not fully on board with all this but I'll give the story a fresh chance in the morning. Really, the most salient point is that a person's worldview is largely immutable, and can only be changed through the weathering of decades or through the total unmooring of their world. People largely construct their viewport into reality around underlying assumptions of their own correctness - that they live and act in a way that is fundamentally "good" - and the extreme trauma of that being suddenly and swiftly uprooted will make people fight against it tooth and nail. Having the world show up to your doorstep to announce, "Everything you've believed is wrong, and all you've done has only served evil," is something that usually makes people retreat further into their own ideologies instead of reflectively backing out of them.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:14
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Quite frankly, Fordola is the Vriska of FF14
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Dec 25, 2021 23:22
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Ironslave posted:Given we live in the world and times we do, I get why you might not want to extend any amount of understanding or even think it's in good taste, but FFXIV does often grapple with histories of colonization and imperialism and--more importantly--the tolls they take upon the occupied. Fordola and her squad have grown up in an occupied Ala Mhigo and been subject to abuse from their supposed countrymen for the knees their parents bent, and from the Garleans for supposedly being lesser while also being raised in an environment assuredly rife with Imperial propaganda. They created the Crania Lupi to try and earn standing, believing Ala Mhigo would never be free and that they could ultimately earn respect for themselves and their country. And unfortunately, these actions are understandable. Not right! But understandable. Ala Mhigan liberation is and was a moonshot and everyone knew that. It took all of Eorzea and most of Othard getting their poo poo together to pull it off and even then might not have succeeded without the imperial governor Actively Not GIving A poo poo to the point of sabotage. Why WOULD anyone bank on that implausible scenario happening when the price of failure is so very high?
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Dec 25, 2021 23:27
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Hell, the Eorzean Alliance was not committing to liberation until Ilberd forced their hand. Outside of Raubahn, none of leadership in each city would be committed to liberation soon. When it's convenient for them or eventually sure, but not soon.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:34
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Ilberd's a hero.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:36
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Ilberd's a hero. It is very amusing that his fake cover plan actually worked, while all his real plan did was actively make things worse for the Ala Mhigans.
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Dec 25, 2021 23:39
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