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Somaen posted:A huge centralised totalitarian state with arbitrary application of the law and no way to change the government forces people to get by through favours, buttering up the bureaucrat you're dealing with, paying off the cop to not put you in prison, paying the overworked doctor to actually treat you, etc and this trickles down to every nook and cranny of society (people smarter than me probably wrote books on this) It seems to be the case in a lot of very varied societies so there must be a number of ways to arrive at the same destination.
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Dec 27, 2021 11:30
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Somaen posted:Is this the mysterious American art that russians call being "dolboeb" no need to be rude. informal networks under totalitarianism is a legitimate place of study. The Soviet union had very specific networks which developed and left a legacy. The market has somewhat broken down the need for networks but it isn't gone. http://webpage.pace.edu/nreagin/S2004HIS296K/VitaliyPiltser/Historical.html FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 11:44
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Owling Howl posted:It seems to be the case in a lot of very varied societies so there must be a number of ways to arrive at the same destination. yeah tbh i'm personally not a big fan of folks presenting "bLaT" (ask the current UK PM about the importance of knowing the Right People) or mYsTic SlAvIc InfoRmal DealIngs (aka befriending said Right People and using their influence to make life/business/access to goods and services that much easier) as something uniquely russian or eastern european or solely existing in totalitarian societies. it literally happens everywhere in the world (yes that includes cushy Nordic and Western European countries and the US of A) - though of course the scale / sheer audacity of it might be different. or it's just a bit better-hidden from
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Dec 27, 2021 12:28
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nurmie posted:yeah tbh i'm personally not a big fan of folks presenting "bLaT" (ask the current UK PM about the importance of knowing the Right People) or mYsTic SlAvIc InfoRmal DealIngs (aka befriending said Right People and using their influence to make life/business/access to goods and services that much easier) as something uniquely russian or eastern european or solely existing in totalitarian societies. it literally happens everywhere in the world (yes that includes cushy Nordic and Western European countries and the US of A) - though of course the scale / sheer audacity of it might be different. or it's just a bit better-hidden from Yea, one of the most important parts of getting into good IT jobs was a sauna night with a friend where some of his friends talked about a position my friend didn't need but for which I ended up applying to. I think it's just not that necessary for as many things here, not that it doesn't exist.
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Dec 27, 2021 12:43
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Having lived in Scandinavia and worked for Western European companies, knowing the right people there is just a privilege of the affluent. Which, in all fairness, works better for the laypeople there, as no Swedish kid has to bribe their GP to get prescribed effective medication like I had to. Neither do they experience road police shake downs like it was routine here not even a decade ago. The net quality of life difference that accountability for small fishes makes is surprisingly large, and I’m fairly happy to observe that Latvia, if unsteadily at times, is moving there as well.
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Dec 27, 2021 12:46
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There really is no singular corruption scale. p much all societies tolerate a certain amount of certain kinds of corruption and there's huge varieties in what that looks like. That said there is a huge variety in how much can be accomplished (eg by a business trying to buy land and open a store/office) country-to-country while refusing to engage in anything that would be considered corrupt. Russia is pretty low on that particular scale I'd love to find it again, but there was a study done on russian corruption that found that people were overall quite satisfied with bribery as a way of getting stuff done because at least it was a reliable way of getting stuff done, provided you could afford the bribe (and to outbribe anyone opposed to what you wanted). As in it was in the high 90s percent, though tbf that was more suggesting that it was the only way to get things done than that people were happy with things being that way
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Dec 27, 2021 12:56
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I'm somewhat familiar with some societies in Africa where public institutions are weak and in many places almost non-existent. It seems like family, tribe, clan and whatnot is often the de facto social safety net. It's how you get help if you need it, find jobs, housing and sometimes even medical help. Whether there's a corrupt centralized bureaucracy or a weak underfunded one doesn't really matter. If you can't trust it to provide the services you need people will just default to getting help from their social network which can be defined and organized in any number of ways. We need strong and capable public institutions to manage it and ensure some baseline of fairness but I don't think there's any way to get entirely rid of it in any society.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:15
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Ataxerxes posted:Yea, one of the most important parts of getting into good IT jobs was a sauna night with a friend where some of his friends talked about a position my friend didn't need but for which I ended up applying to. I think it's just not that necessary for as many things here, not that it doesn't exist. That's utterly missing the point of the concept, but whatever.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:27
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This poo poo isn't unique to EE but I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced understands just how pervasive it is/was. Like you'd need to "know a guy" to get basic staples or like shoes and stuff. Get (somehow) a color tv to the guy responsible for giving out apartments so you didn't have to live with 3 other families. Bribe the traffic cops. Bribe the GP. Bribe the phone company to get a line installed. It's just so normalized in a way it isn't in Western countries.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:There really is no singular corruption scale. p much all societies tolerate a certain amount of certain kinds of corruption and there's huge varieties in what that looks like. That said there is a huge variety in how much can be accomplished (eg by a business trying to buy land and open a store/office) country-to-country while refusing to engage in anything that would be considered corrupt. Russia is pretty low on that particular scale Don't most metrics of corruption include corruption perception and weight it heavily in the end results? Russia is very lovely in perception too. But I guess there is no contradiction here. You can be aware that you live in an ultra corrupt shithole and still be happy about it.  There is definitely some everyday low level corruption going on in here in Germany. Best example is probably the public housing market. City flats are very cheap and high quality but the supply is extremely limited, so to get one you can either rot away for years on a waiting list or you know someone who works in the public housing administration and will just give you one. I know several people who got one through connections. One case is particularly lovely because they now live alone in a fantastic, cheapass 3 bedroom flat that they don't really need and could afford from a private landlord just as well. That apartment would have gone to a family instead, if the wheels hadn't been greased. I even know someone who got one through straight bribery (for just 50 DM ffs), but that was back in the wild 90s(I don't think you can pull that off anymore). Having said that, it's such a tiny aspect of everyday life. Almost everything else related to public services is almost corruption free.
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Dec 27, 2021 14:36
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every behavior is unique to its culture and situation. Everything is unique even if analogues exist. Traffic exists both in LA and Moscow, but I think it would be pretty dumb to claim that LA traffic is actually Moscow traffic. Moscow traffic can only happen in and around Moscow. Ataxerxes posted:Yea, one of the most important parts of getting into good IT jobs was a sauna night with a friend where some of his friends talked about a position my friend didn't need but for which I ended up applying to. I think it's just not that necessary for as many things here, not that it doesn't exist. Blat of the type Fitzpatrick discusses isn't job networking. It's food networking. Or networking to fufill a basic bureaucratic task. It often wasn't viewed as corruption.
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Dec 27, 2021 14:36
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the new draft belarusian constitution is out! it has some very convenient provisions https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1475460317991911428 Edit: the new constitution also bans gay marriage cause why not Qtotonibudinibudet fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 14:42
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FishBulbia posted:every behavior is unique to its culture and situation. Everything is unique even if analogues exist. Traffic exists both in LA and Moscow, but I think it would be pretty dumb to claim that LA traffic is actually Moscow traffic. Moscow traffic can only happen in and around Moscow. "unique" is an extremely strong word, especially when it comes to human behaviour like yeah you get certain peculiarities but generally corruption remains corruption, traffic remains traffic, people remain people; and if their material conditions are similar their experiences can align in many remarkable ways, even if they live on the other side of the globe FishBulbia posted:Blat of the type Fitzpatrick discusses isn't job networking. It's food networking. Or networking to fufill a basic bureaucratic task. It often wasn't viewed as corruption. if i may ask, are you speaking from personal/family experience here or is your interest in and knowledge of this topic purely academical? cinci zoo sniper posted:Having lived in Scandinavia and worked for Western European companies, knowing the right people there is just a privilege of the affluent. Which, in all fairness, works better for the laypeople there, as no Swedish kid has to bribe their GP to get prescribed effective medication like I had to. Neither do they experience road police shake downs like it was routine here not even a decade ago. The net quality of life difference that accountability for small fishes makes is surprisingly large, and I’m fairly happy to observe that Latvia, if unsteadily at times, is moving there as well. oh yeah "everyday" corruption/bribery in the UK/Nordics/Western Europe is definitely nowhere near as pervasive as it is/was Back Home  it's generally ranging from nonexistent to "background radiaton" levels in my experience. now higher level stuff, that's a slightly different story (as our good friend Rosneft chairman Gerhard Schröder can probably attest)
nurmie fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 14:50
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No. I wasn't alive during Stalin and I haven't had any family who served in Soviet anti-corruption organs. I'm guessing you did and are in your 70s-80s?
FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 15:07
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FishBulbia posted:No. I wasn't alive during Stalin and I haven't had any family who served in Soviet anti-corruption organs. I'm guessing you did? excuse me but what the gently caress are you talking about
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Dec 27, 2021 15:08
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nurmie posted:excuse me but what the gently caress are you talking about You just asked me If I had any personal experience with blat in the context of Everyday Stalinism. I'm guessing you do?
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Dec 27, 2021 15:14
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as everyone knows, after stalin blat disappeared, as khrushchev established a fair, equitable, and functioning economic system that was improved by his successors it definitely wasn't like, a defining characteristic of the economy in the brezhnev era and after
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Dec 27, 2021 15:17
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FishBulbia posted:You just asked me If I had any personal experience with blat in the context of Everyday Stalinism. I'm guessing you do? i don't recall anyone invoking loving stalin in this discussion
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Dec 27, 2021 15:21
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:as everyone knows, after stalin blat disappeared, as khrushchev established a fair, equitable, and functioning economic system that was improved by his successors no no, are you implying some "mYsTic SlAvIc InfoRmal DealIngs"
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Dec 27, 2021 15:24
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nurmie posted:i don't recall anyone invoking loving stalin in this discussion mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 15:24
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nurmie posted:i don't recall anyone invoking loving stalin in this discussion You were responding to a comment about Fitzpatrick's Everyday Stalinism.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:25
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FishBulbia posted:You were responding to a comment about Fitzpatrick's Everyday Stalinism. This is the first time you share the title of the book in this thread.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:29
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And I never claimed informal networks arose out of anything besides material conditions. You're the one who conjured up the idea that I was somehow making a statement about unique slavic mentality or something. If you had collectivization in greenland or delaware I'm sure the same networks would emerge.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:31
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mobby_6kl posted:Stalin is always implied in the EE thread ah, should've guessed there's that particular spectre haunting this thread FishBulbia posted:You were responding to a comment about Fitzpatrick's Everyday Stalinism. not familiar neither with the book nor the author. though this does answer my question about the nature of your knowledge on this particular topic, yeah
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Dec 27, 2021 15:32
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nurmie posted:ah, should've guessed there's that particular spectre haunting this thread So what am I getting wrong then? Informal networks did not exist? Is Fitzpatrick wrong? Or is this something that went away in 1953 and there were no more informal networks?
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Dec 27, 2021 15:34
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I can't even tell what you're arguing for/against and to what end.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:40
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https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-duda-us-clash-media-law-veto/quote:WARSAW — Polish President Andrzej Duda intervened to head off a clash with Washington on Monday by vetoing a controversial media law that was widely seen as targeting independent broadcaster TVN, owned by the U.S. media giant Discovery.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:44
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Paladinus posted:I can't even tell what you're arguing for/against and to what end. I made some comment about how blat was a legacy of the soviet system. Which apperently equates to me believing in national mentalities? Even though its purely structural. Then I used a definition from an eminent historian's discussion of blat in stalinist subjectivity to dismiss another comment which I think misinterpreted networking in the Soviet context.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:46
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FishBulbia posted:So what am I getting wrong then? Informal networks did not exist? Is Fitzpatrick wrong? Or is this something that went away in 1953 and there were no more informal networks? i mean yeah, i'd appriciate if you clarified what is it that you're trying to say. your previous posts do seem somewhat contradictory to each other (though maybe my mystical slavic brain is too emotional to comprehend your clear and logical vision). case in point: FishBulbia posted:every behavior is unique to its culture and situation. Everything is unique even if analogues exist. Traffic exists both in LA and Moscow, but I think it would be pretty dumb to claim that LA traffic is actually Moscow traffic. Moscow traffic can only happen in and around Moscow. FishBulbia posted:And I never claimed informal networks arose out of anything besides material conditions. You're the one who conjured up the idea that I was somehow making a statement about unique slavic mentality or something. If you had collectivization in greenland or delaware I'm sure the same networks would emerge.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:47
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FishBulbia posted:I made some comment about how blat was a legacy of the soviet system. Which apperently equates to me believing in national mentalities? Even though its purely structural. Great, looks like everyone is on the same page, good to know.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:49
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If Moscow had the same layout and density as LA and public transit was in exactly the same state of funding I am pretty sure they would have similar traffic. Those are not contradictory. You're the one interjecting mentalité into this.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:49
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No two cases are actually ever exactly the same though, most are actually wildly different in pure material conditions. Not even considering things like the development of institutions. Material conditions and institutions led to a far greater reliance on blat than in market economies
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Dec 27, 2021 16:00
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All happy nations are alike; each unhappy nation is unhappy in its own way.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:39
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Kadyrov to Ukraine: Ukrainian problematic issues are not even at the level of the country's president. This is my level. If I had been order, I would have solved this issue long ago. Or would have annexed Ukraine to the Chechen Republic. Ukraine should be annexed to our country long ago. Ukrainians are our people. I said then: After the Crimea, it was necessary to take Kyiv New satellite photos of the Russian military buildup. Bakhchysarai, Occupied Crimea. Russian brigade-level unit: 100s of armored vehicles including APCs, tanks, self-propelled artillery; air defense equipment. Photo 1, October. Photo 2, December 13. @Maxar WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 17:15
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mobby_6kl posted:Eastern Europe: Stalin is always implied Also of potential interest to the thread, the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel had a video of its host discussing (and firing) a PSRL, a sort of American-made RPG knockoff that is sold internationally to specifically go places where soldiers already know how to use RPGs, prominently to Ukraine. The host has an exec at the company that manufactures it give a spiel with some very interesting choices of framing.
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Dec 27, 2021 18:35
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Discendo Vox posted:Also of potential interest to the thread, the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel had a video of its host discussing (and firing) a PSRL, a sort of American-made RPG knockoff that is sold internationally to specifically go places where soldiers already know how to use RPGs, prominently to Ukraine. The host has an exec at the company that manufactures it give a spiel with some very interesting choices of framing. Wow that's embarrassing
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Dec 27, 2021 18:54
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The dominant opinion is that Duda was threatened by the US with personal sanctions. He’s still a young dude and by being sanctionad, effectively any post-presidential or academia career in the western world would be forever unavailable. In other news, I listened to a x-mas interview with Walesa - dude is old and it’s really showing, but he seems to not be going great health-wise either and he’s bankrupt. Despite earning millions on the academia circuit, he fostered an extended family that probably ate up all his savings. I don’t think he’s long for this world. Walesa will leave a complicated legacy behind. Internationally, he’s known as the father of Solidarity, which he wasn’t - just a simple dude that happened to be at the right time and place. He was an admitted agent for the security services, at a time when most people were and no one gave a poo poo, because it was mostly make-believe. My mom worked on his first presidential campaign as a journo and recalls basically a planeload of US campaign advisors who swooped in and carried him to victory (always remembering this when thinking about that one Russian plane landing in Minsk during Lukas troubles). He was also a divisive figure - Jaroslaw Kaczynski hates Walesa so much, he’s actively removing him from all historical textbooks and replacing him with his brother Lech as Solidarity’s founder. Walesa is also persona non grata in the Gdansk shipyard, ran still by Solidarity, now hijacked by right-wing goons who transformed it into a far-right catholic conservative militant organization.
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Dec 27, 2021 19:00
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Discendo Vox posted:Also of potential interest to the thread, the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel had a video of its host discussing (and firing) a PSRL, a sort of American-made RPG knockoff that is sold internationally to specifically go places where soldiers already know how to use RPGs, prominently to Ukraine. The host has an exec at the company that manufactures it give a spiel with some very interesting choices of framing. jesus loving christ extremely powerful used car salesman vibes emanating from this guy
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Dec 27, 2021 19:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Also of potential interest to the thread, the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel had a video of its host discussing (and firing) a PSRL, a sort of American-made RPG knockoff that is sold internationally to specifically go places where soldiers already know how to use RPGs, prominently to Ukraine. The host has an exec at the company that manufactures it give a spiel with some very interesting choices of framing. This is one occasion where I can say that comments on a youtube video are worth it.
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Dec 27, 2021 19:10
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https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1475487638991814668 MOSCOW - Pigs can fly! Weirdly similar 00s internet career path and finale to Lowtax (and the guy was a poster superstar/pariah on Lepra, russian SA for all intents and purposes), except as far as I know the tax man did not help with recruiting mercenaries to fight in Donbass and did not run crowdfunding drives to buy an APC. Rest in piss and burn in hell
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Dec 27, 2021 20:50
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