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Also, I think the worst part of the episode was LTT being called the Dragon Reborn. I think it kind of sums up my issue with the show (some book spoilers): For me, one of the coolest concepts in the books was the idea time really was a circle - but a nihilistic, Nietzsche-esque flat circle - where there's no actual knowledge being gained. The idea that in the Age of Legends they literally couldn't conceive of violence and war - and that despite time being a circle, they lacked the knowledge of prior versions of the Dragon fighting the Dark One, because as part of the process of the wheel turning between Rand and back to the AOL all of the knowledge is lost. I wish the show would engage with those themes and less of the relationship shipping. We'll see though! Obviously not a dealbreaker, though.
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Dec 26, 2021 17:42
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Upgrade posted:treating the viewer as a bit smarter rofl
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Dec 26, 2021 18:46
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El Grillo posted:Minor spoilers about how the books structure things, no actual story spoilers: IDK, even tho the reveals in the book weren't as explicit, the implicit storytelling was so lock-tight you'd have to be willfully stretching to reach any other conclusion beginning with the fact that the first 20 chapters (more than 1/3 of the book) are all from Rand's POV before we ever even enter another POV, and the majority of the rest of the book is as well, while the other POV chapters we do get carry those characters on very clearly different paths (Perrin to his wolf-dream, Nynaeve to becoming Aes Sedai). We don't even get a Mat or Egwene POV in the first book. The biggest reveal though is in Chapter 6, still very early in the story, when Tam tells Rand in his fever dreams about his birth, and Rand spends so much of the rest of the book dwelling on that it just hammers home the point "Yo, this is kind of the important thing going on here". Moiraine even asked if any of them had been born outside the Two Rivers and was trying to sus out details about that in several other scenes (why she never honed in on Rand's obvious Aiel ancestry when almost EVERYONE else who met him immediately fixated on that is beyond me). Some of the other prophecies are discussed/described in the rest of the book, but none are actually fulfilled, but when we finally do get the reveal at the end that Rand is a channeller, it's not really a surprise, just a confirmation of all the buildup that had been done for the last 800 pages which set up our expectations that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. In the show tho, we don't get that scene between Rand and Tam until almost the end, because they wanted to make the mystery about who is the Dragon more of a thing and tie it up in one big reveal episode, because modern TV prefers big explicit reveal episodes to slow-burn implied revelation where the audience is clearly supposed to infer what's going on without needing to tune in to "the shocking revelation of the season you won't want to miss". Come to think of it, the book never explicity claimed that any of the characters were the Dragon until it was shown to be Rand. Moiraine went out of her way to avoid voicing her full suspcions. All we were ever spoon-fed were that 3 of them were Ta'veren, and that by Loi'al, halfway through the book, instead of Moiraine in the first episode. I do love that the show made all 5 of the villagers Ta'veren tho, that made a lot of sense to me. St0rmD fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 19:43
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Rewatching the finale with family. The Dark One dressed like the maître d' at a 3-star Michelin restaurant.
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Dec 27, 2021 01:11
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Hughmoris posted:Rewatching the finale with family. The Dark One dressed like the maître d' at a 3-star Michelin restaurant. More like a fondue restaurant that wishes they could get a star lmao
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Dec 27, 2021 05:39
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I've got two questions, 1. What has the critical reception to the show been? and 2. What has been the reaction to the show by the population of serious WoT readers? I for one thought it was a great fantasy adventure show, having only read the first book. I'm sure with most adaptations there will always be a crowd that says its unfaithful - but in general there's a larger consensus on how the media is portrayed (i.e. LoTR fans in general loving the movies).
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Dec 27, 2021 08:12
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As a book reader I've had a few quibbles but really enjoyed it overall. My non-book reader partner has had a similar response.
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Dec 27, 2021 10:07
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1. Like virtually everything these days it has an overall 7/10. The best reviewed episode seems to be unanimously episode 4, with the worst easily being episode 8. 2. As I previously noted, there’s a ton of extraneous crap in both the books and the show but the crap they made up for the show is overall less satisfying than the crap Jordan originally wrote. The single greatest problem in the show seems to be a lack of time, and annoyingly it’s ‘cheap’ time that’s missing; by which I mean character moments where people sit around talking to each other like normal humans who inhabit a real place.
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Dec 27, 2021 10:10
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Hughmoris posted:Rewatching the finale with family. The Dark One dressed like the maître d' at a 3-star Michelin restaurant. Been a few people who commented on his untucked undershirt. I think it's inspired by the tunics they wear in some West Asian countries against the heat. Untucked for airflow.
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Dec 27, 2021 10:41
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I just read it as tailored that way, short on one side and long on the other, is it actually tucked in? And although I was okay with the guy and his performance he could absolutely be running an ethically sourced cactus shop in Portland OR.
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Dec 27, 2021 12:12
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Hmm yes, he could be any well dressed man.
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Dec 27, 2021 12:56
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Dennis McClaren posted:I've got two questions, I feel like in the book barn thread it's been mostly positive, with a little bit of "Oh my God gently caress this dumb show I can't believe they changed %inconsequential thing%" sprinkled in And then you have the Whitecloaks subreddit which I guess is basically like, "multiple ethnicities in my back water village? Burn the show to the ground" 🙄 Sab669 fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 12:59
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We named ourselves after the in-show Klan ~ironically~
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Dec 27, 2021 13:08
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I've not read the books so I'm not sure if it's because of that, but the show just not bothering to do anything with Perrin is something to behold. He's the only one of the main 5 who's actually got a back story that's more than just angst, but in episode 7 when they have an astonishingly callous and self absorbed argument about how he didn't really love his dead wife, the follow up for him is just... nothing? Everyone else goes away and fucks and he just stops existing until the end scene. Then in episode 8 he's frustrated about being useless, so I assumed this would be a chance for the guy with secret wolf powers to shine but in reality we get to watch him bumbling away in the wrong direction for a bit while all the action happens off screen then he returns just in time to stand there looking confused while the bad guy gives him a bit of exposition and walks away. Also, someone please tell me that Egwene heals the other channelling ladies that defended the city and doesn't just ignore them because they're not her friend.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:30
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The other ones who burned out died, whereas Nynaeve was just about to die, so she could be saved with a timely intervention. I feel like the unfocused and unsatisfying use of Perrin in episodes 7 and 8 is because he was the one who got stuck holding the plot-critical details that would have gone to Mat if he hadn't suffered actor loss.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:33
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Did Miracle Max teach us nothing
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Dec 27, 2021 13:35
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Data Graham posted:Did Miracle Max teach us nothing Hey, I totally made that joke pages ago!  That was such a crappy moment. There is no consequence to this major character almost-dying. Egwene gets sad then immediately does something with neither fanfare nor explanation that the books are adamant is impossible. Nobody else even knows it happened.
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Dec 27, 2021 13:53
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Bongo Bill posted:The other ones who burned out died, whereas Nynaeve was just about to die, so she could be saved with a timely intervention. Wait, Mat was supposed to be the one secretly in love with Egwene and not Perrin?
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Dec 27, 2021 14:08
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Chalks posted:I've not read the books so I'm not sure if it's because of that, but the show just not bothering to do anything with Perrin is something to behold. He's the only one of the main 5 who's actually got a back story that's more than just angst, but in episode 7 when they have an astonishingly callous and self absorbed argument about how he didn't really love his dead wife, the follow up for him is just... nothing? Everyone else goes away and fucks and he just stops existing until the end scene. she didn't have enough gems to res
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Dec 27, 2021 14:18
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Chalks posted:Then in episode 8 he's frustrated about being useless, so I assumed this would be a chance for the guy with secret wolf powers to shine but in reality we get to watch him bumbling away in the wrong direction for a bit while all the action happens off screen then he returns just in time to stand there looking confused while the bad guy gives him a bit of exposition and walks away. Pretty sure this is going to be an important moment for him later.
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Dec 27, 2021 14:20
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CainFortea posted:Pretty sure this is going to be an important moment for him later. I see what you did there.
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Dec 27, 2021 14:27
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Grundulum posted:Hey, I totally made that joke pages ago! She wasn't dead, she is still moving, rattling in her dying breaths. Why is it different from Nynaeve mass healing Moraine and Lan in episode four?
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Dec 27, 2021 15:17
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Jeepers, he's not The Dark One. Use your X-Ray vision. TDO is still trapped behind the remaining unbroken yin-yang collanders.
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Dec 27, 2021 15:38
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canepazzo posted:She wasn't dead, she is still moving, rattling in her dying breaths. Why is it different from Nynaeve mass healing Moraine and Lan in episode four? If Nynaeve was still moving, I missed it; I was focused on Egwene in those shots. I will retract my criticism of Egwene healing the dead, but my complaint about how this sequence has no consequence for any characters stands until the show proves me wrong. 
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Dec 27, 2021 15:52
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tsob posted:Are they? I hear more praise for fights that feel brutal, rather than realistic as such. One of my favorite fights is the opening fight in the bathroom of the newer Casino Royale, because the camera is very tight and every hit feels like it has a lot of impact. It feels really claustrophobic and chaotic, and it emphasizes how difficult it was as a "first kill" for Bond. Which makes it not only interesting to watch in terms of cinematography, but in terms of emotional stakes too. The fact it's framed with Bond confronting someone with some pithy dialogue that segues nicely into the credits is the cherry on top. It's a realistic fight I suppose, but I don't think that's why I find it memorable; especially when my other favorite fight in movies is the brawl at the end of The Quiet Man; which is not remotely realistic. lol thank you for introducing me to The Quiet Man fight, I've been obsessing about it for days. It's loving amazing, the first movie fight I've ever seen that's...joyous? I dunno there's like a million funny things about it e: I lived in Ethiopia for a bit, and I once saw two people yelling at each other in an alleyway, and other people would come up to them and splash water on them while they kept at it. Lol, that this also happens here.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:00
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Grundulum posted:If Nynaeve was still moving, I missed it; I was focused on Egwene in those shots. I will retract my criticism of Egwene healing the dead, but my complaint about how this sequence has no consequence for any characters stands until the show proves me wrong. Nynaeve wasn't moving; the only motion in her body comes from Egwene rocking her as she cries. The cinematic language of the scene also heavily implies that she was dead; it's full dark when Nynaeve gets burnt out by the power, but the sun is rising when it cuts back to Egwene, implying that Egwene has been cradling Nynaeve's body for some time. It's edited and framed to make you think she is cold and dead. The scene with Loial cheats in the same way; it opens on Padan Fain having stabbed Loial, followed by Fain looking at Perrin and twisting the knife to stab harder, which is cinematic language for "Yup, this guy is extra dead". To cap it off, loial is still moving from the first stab, but falls limp after the second.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:21
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Chalks posted:I've not read the books so I'm not sure if it's because of that, but the show just not bothering to do anything with Perrin is something to behold. He's the only one of the main 5 who's actually got a back story that's more than just angst, but in episode 7 when they have an astonishingly callous and self absorbed argument about how he didn't really love his dead wife, the follow up for him is just... nothing? Everyone else goes away and fucks and he just stops existing until the end scene. There's a tonne of Perrin poo poo that didn't make it into the show. Not at the end, the final two episodes here did do some sort of a job giving more characters something to do at the climax than they had in the book. The section after the party split where Perrin and Egwene are in the wilderness and meet the Tuatha'an is more involved and there's a lot more exploration of Perrin's wolf poo poo. I guess any exploration of the wolf poo poo is more than what the show gives you, but it's substantial in excess of that. By the end of the book you know exactly what his deal is. It really is insane the way we don't get any followup with Perrin after that fight. I can't imagine it was deliberate- it's too obvious a hole for a character the show did actually invest a lot in early on. I assume they cut it for time or pacing or because the Barney Harris situation threw out their plans too badly to salvage something there.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:21
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After rewatching several episodes I can’t express how bad Perrins role is. Not sure if it’s just the actor, the script or a combination but it’s just awful. It feels like 90% of his screen time is just standing around, mouth open, looking like he’s holding back a number 2 and doing nothing. The Tuatha’an ep was the only one where he had a decent on screen performance. I guess the adaptation to screen didn’t benefit the character but there has to be something better than making him look like he’s not entirely right in the head.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:30
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I think that that worked fine for the first couple of episodes, where Perrin is obviously still in shock over killing his wife. What did not really come out enough is that apparently the Tuatha'an really got to him. There were some scenes where he explained what the Tuatha'an were to the others, but it didn't come out that he was trying to follow the Way of the Leaf. Therefore it doesn't hit enough that he realized it was unworkable when facing Fades and Padan Fain and went back on that. My guess is that Perrin's time on screen really suffered by having to take over important story points that were supposed to go to Mat. Things like Perrin + Egwene, the Horn of Valere, etc. So basically they couldn't show Perrin's story but instead used Perrin to show Mat's story. And that really didn't work.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:40
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Re: Perrin, the meeting with Elias was entirely cut, and I feel like that part of the book was what explained (or started to) what Perrin's deal was. Do people think they entirely cut that part from the series, or will we maybe see it in future seasons? Although I'm not sure how it could be reintroduced in season 2+ short of flashbacks/retcons. Not sure if this is the right thread to ask since this is related to the book, but I only read the first book and would prefer not to venture in the TBB thread. If it's not ok, I'll edit.
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Dec 27, 2021 16:53
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Probably more appropriate to the TBB thread, but I understand the apprehension. Rumour is we'll see that character in season 2.
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Dec 27, 2021 17:01
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DTurtle posted:I think that that worked fine for the first couple of episodes, where Perrin is obviously still in shock over killing his wife. What did not really come out enough is that apparently the Tuatha'an really got to him. There were some scenes where he explained what the Tuatha'an were to the others, but it didn't come out that he was trying to follow the Way of the Leaf. Therefore it doesn't hit enough that he realized it was unworkable when facing Fades and Padan Fain and went back on that. Yeah I'm gonna have to blame bad acting as well, I didn't know what was going in that character's head other than misery. And anger.
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Dec 27, 2021 17:15
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DTurtle posted:I think that that worked fine for the first couple of episodes, where Perrin is obviously still in shock over killing his wife. What did not really come out enough is that apparently the Tuatha'an really got to him. There were some scenes where he explained what the Tuatha'an were to the others, but it didn't come out that he was trying to follow the Way of the Leaf. Therefore it doesn't hit enough that he realized it was unworkable when facing Fades and Padan Fain and went back on that. yeah, he seemed ok at the start, but when he continued being like that it means that there's a problem with acting/writing/directing
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Dec 27, 2021 17:23
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canepazzo posted:Re: Perrin, the meeting with Elias was entirely cut, and I feel like that part of the book was what explained (or started to) what Perrin's deal was. Do people think they entirely cut that part from the series, or will we maybe see it in future seasons? Although I'm not sure how it could be reintroduced in season 2+ short of flashbacks/retcons. The showmhas been up front about them shuffling people and scenes around between the books, and a season doesnt = a book. If a character, subplot or exposition happened by time x in the books, and the show seems to be past that there is no way of knowing if it will happen in the future. So for this thread assume that it will happen later and don't mention it. It is very hard to predict what and who will be cut - many people suggested that the whole thing with the people on the boats at the end could be cut, so who knows
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Dec 27, 2021 17:33
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Now that we're past it I'd like to say that the idea to have the dragon reborn possibly male or female didn't really make sense. Part of the tension about the Dragon Reborn existing is that he's going to be the most powerful channeller on the planet - and also going insane, as likely to destroy the world as to save it. A female Dragon Reborn would just be an extremely powerful Aes Sedai. Like, if you're show-Moirane, you are desperately hoping that Nynaeve or Egwene is the DR, because if it's one of the lads, it's orders of magnitude worse. But it's treated as if it's even money for all five.
zoux fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 18:04
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why couldn’t a woman go mad with power?
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Dec 27, 2021 18:12
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King Of Coons posted:why couldn’t a woman go mad with power? It’s different when the literal essence of evil seeps into your soul every time you use your magic. Women can go mad with power, sure, but men will literally go insane because of their abilities. Edit: I may have missed  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Dec 27, 2021 18:14
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She could, in the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" sense, but for the man, it's built in, it's going to happen. Evil Queen Dark and Beautiful! might be a bad ruler but the male Dragon Reborn is inevitably going to go completely insane and perhaps destroy the world.
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Dec 27, 2021 18:17
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LochNessMonster posted:After rewatching several episodes I can’t express how bad Perrins role is. Not sure if it’s just the actor, the script or a combination but it’s just awful. I think it's all of the above. His voice really bothers me
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Dec 27, 2021 18:21
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He's a charisma vacuum for sure.
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Dec 27, 2021 18:22
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