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Weird that this argument is coming right after the talk of Tienamen Square. Most other authoritarian governments around the world seem to have been hit real hard by the pandemic, so it's not really civil liberties screwing things up. The US in its first year of the pandemic had to deal with a chief executive actively sabotaging things and refusing plans to provide masks or tests while the states and congress did their best to fight, while now that we have a responsible chief executive, the politically opposed states are holding out and doing their best to kill people, so a federalized system with (relative) political diversity helped and hurt. I hear Taiwan has responded pretty well to the pandemic and built a pretty good tracking system.
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Dec 26, 2021 01:50
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MikeC posted:bolded and italicized - my emphasis So here in Taiwan we have zero covid, we also crushed, absolutely crushed, an outbreak while still at ~1% fully vaccinated or whatnot. Just with basic poo poo like masks and contact tracing and no indoor dining. People just don't want to do it, or have been told that any minor inconvenience is the gubbermint oppressing them. So 20mm people or so are dead worldwide.
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Dec 26, 2021 02:16
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LimburgLimbo posted:So here in Taiwan we have zero covid, we also crushed, absolutely crushed, an outbreak while still at ~1% fully vaccinated or whatnot. Just with basic poo poo like masks and contact tracing and no indoor dining. So this is exactly what I am talking about. The Taiwanese populace was willing to follow PHIs. It is clear that the North American and European populations are not willing to comply, or at least a large enough segment that doesn't adhere to the measures to the exacting standards required and it would be political suicide to enact anything further such as mandatory vaccination or extended shutdowns of the economy. I would rather live in a political system where non-compliance exists rather than a police state which would rather weld the doors shut on people inside their own homes in order to enforce PHIs to chase COVID zero. A government that is accountable to no one other than its own party members and whatever internal factional struggles that go on behind the scenes. Obviously, it should not be necessary to pick between these two extremes - but it is clear that we have to because of dumbfucks who refuse to wear a mask or get a vaccine. Most of the people ending up in ICUs or dying are those same dumbfucks anyways. Even on their deathbeds some of them are unrepentant. So unless you do martial law the moment one case pops up we gotta learn to live with it. And even with these super stringent lockdowns, the CCP can't keep COVID at zero either. So it's not like you are even trading "muh rights" for Covid Zero.
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Dec 26, 2021 05:18
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A small island handled covid better than a massive nation with huge land borders? Shocking. And maybe its extremely brave of me to say, but I'd rather have 3.5m dead. China is the most analogous nation to us when it comes to size and spread, and its absolutely ridiculous to claim that the only way they were able to handle the pandemic is because of spooky authoritarianism. China has functional governmental infrastructure. If they say they'll deliver you food, you comply because they will. America doesnt even bother to try because we all know that the government cannot provide for us. It sucks, and if you think that the only thing standing in the way of that is nonmasker idiots, you're selling yourself a fiction that justifies doing nothing.
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Dec 26, 2021 05:55
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MikeC posted:So this is exactly what I am talking about. The Taiwanese populace was willing to follow PHIs. It is clear that the North American and European populations are not willing to comply, or at least a large enough segment that doesn't adhere to the measures to the exacting standards required and it would be political suicide to enact anything further such as mandatory vaccination or extended shutdowns of the economy. I would rather live in a political system where non-compliance exists rather than a police state which would rather weld the doors shut on people inside their own homes in order to enforce PHIs to chase COVID zero. A government that is accountable to no one other than its own party members and whatever internal factional struggles that go on behind the scenes. I genuinely can’t figure out what the idea is here. It sounds like you’re saying that Taiwan enacting strict anti-COVID isn’t authoritarian because the people accept it—but China doing the same thing is bad? Why? Is it because the Chinese people reject it, unlike the Taiwanese, but have no choice but to comply? Is there any evidence of this? It would make sense if you were saying you thought Taiwan’s approach, while strict, was more measured and represented an ideal political system where compliance exists without a police state—but then you go out of your way to reject that in favor a saying it’s an inescapable dichotomy!
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Dec 26, 2021 09:01
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From the very beginning basically all western countries had the strategy of reducing the amount of cases to a degree that the health system could handle and all of them were largely successful at this (some notable temporary exceptions, especially in the beginning). Corona is seen as a disease that would most likely recur in waves similar to the flu and once enough people had immunity could be managed the same way. Zero Covid was never on the table and it is highly doubtful that it would have been possible politically and socially. China had a different approach and was highly successful as well. Though the question remains what the end game is here. Wait until an effective vaccine or treatment is found (and hope that you can keep up with mutations)? Keep up local temporary lockdowns forever? A combination of these?
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Dec 26, 2021 09:44
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Yeah China's initial (local) response was a disaster, the subsequent national response has been extremely effective, the question now is how and when to transition away from Covid measures when its endemic to the planet and even high vaccination rates dont provide herd immunity.
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Dec 26, 2021 10:04
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Alchenar posted:Yeah China's initial (local) response was a disaster, the subsequent national response has been extremely effective, the question now is how and when to transition away from Covid measures when its endemic to the planet and even high vaccination rates dont provide herd immunity. That's certainly a question for us, but I don't really see a pressing need for China to transition from a strategy that so far has proven extremely effective and minimally disruptive to their citizenry at large
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Dec 26, 2021 10:15
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I imagine what will happen is China continues to quarantine until the rest of the world figures out how to stop spreading a deadly virus, which leaves 1.4 billion fewer hosts for the virus to mutate from which will be good for the world in general. Either the the problem-nations in the west figure out how a shutdown actually works & vaccine patents are lifted to aid the global south, or Zero Covid just becomes the norm and China continues to devise ways to maintain trade with other nations without getting everyone killed. Maybe the virus suddenly and idealistically mutates a dominant strain that kills nobody and infects everyone, I'm personally skeptical! As was mentioned before, I think comparing China (landlocked massively population-dense country which relies on global industry and was the epicenter of the virus) to a Taiwan or New Zealand (island states that were able to shape their COVID policy in reaction) is a little disingenuous. I dont personally see a way in which China, by the time the virus was identified, was going to stamp it out without severe lockdown measures. In fact I think we're witnessing what a more à la carte policy would have accomplished, in the United States. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 10:31
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I think its also worth reiterating that the 'welding people into apartment blocks and leaving them to die' reports were from the 'poo poo poo poo poo poo we hosed it' Wuhan phase of the outbreak and not anything remotely like national policy. E: if we want to go after bad covid policy then its more fruitful to look at Japan, which mysteriously had virtually no covid until after the 2020 summer games, at which point reported cases matched global trends, or Russia which was also suspiciously free while simultaneously suffering tens of thousands of pneumonia related excess deaths. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 10:38
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MikeC posted:So this is exactly what I am talking about. The Taiwanese populace was willing to follow PHIs. It is clear that the North American and European populations are not willing to comply, or at least a large enough segment that doesn't adhere to the measures to the exacting standards required and it would be political suicide to enact anything further such as mandatory vaccination or extended shutdowns of the economy. I would rather live in a political system where non-compliance exists rather than a police state which would rather weld the doors shut on people inside their own homes in order to enforce PHIs to chase COVID zero. A government that is accountable to no one other than its own party members and whatever internal factional struggles that go on behind the scenes. i mean, by and large the chinese populace is willing to follow the rules too. especially after the initial wave in early 2020, there's pretty minimal resistance to masking, lockdowns, vaccinations, testing, etc. i'm glad i live in a country that felt like appropriate measures to save millions of lives were worth whatever political blowback happened to the leaders. you realize here that what you're saying is you wish more chinese citizens had died? it's also bullshit that you came in to the thread this time specifically to talk about how bad you think china's covid policies are, and when you encountered the slightest pushback you told the other guy to talk it to the covid thread. fart simpson fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 10:40
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:You're assuming that they haven't been lying their asses off about their numbers. They weren't then or they'd be lying now.
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Dec 26, 2021 13:18
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Ignoring Covid and letting it spread isn't viable. There's about 16,000 ICU beds left in the US, in the entire country, and when all the beds are full , that's it. Anyone who has a heart attack, or a stroke or a bad accident over the next month is looking at long wait times to be treated, and the staff are still burnt out from the Delta wave.
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Dec 26, 2021 14:26
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Ghetto Prince posted:Ignoring Covid and letting it spread isn't viable. There's about 16,000 ICU beds left in the US, in the entire country, Do you have a source for that? Not to score internet points here, to score internet points elsewhere where I argue with "hurf durf just let it burn itself out" chucklefucks.
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Dec 26, 2021 17:08
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Daduzi posted:Do you have a source for that? Not to score internet points here, to score internet points elsewhere where I argue with "hurf durf just let it burn itself out" chucklefucks. https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization
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Dec 26, 2021 18:50
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A big flaming stink posted:That's certainly a question for us, but I don't really see a pressing need for China to transition from a strategy that so far has proven extremely effective and minimally disruptive to their citizenry at large They've moved back from some public missteps in the beginning and/or done what was necessary to make them not public in a damaging way, so there's always been some sort of transition. I guess the latest phase is to learn how they intend to use strict containment tools and how well it will function versus loose, quasi-manageable republics.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:52
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Ghetto Prince posted:Ignoring Covid and letting it spread isn't viable. There's about 16,000 ICU beds left in the US, in the entire country, and when all the beds are full , that's it. Probably important to provide context since saying there's only 16,000 ICU beds seems really bad/low, but there's about 80,000 ICU beds, so about 25% of capacity available with that 16,000. Not that I disagree with the general though, since the US is handling Covid like a lovely clusterfuck and somehow worse than Trump, and it's going to be a lot worse in January once the Christmas Super Spread results start coming in. Edit: And having only 25% capacity is still not good, since about 20% is Covid and we'd probably be at somewhere in the 50-55% otherwise. Ghetto Prince posted:Anyone who has a heart attack, or a stroke or a bad accident over the next month is looking at long wait times to be treated, and the staff are still burnt out from the Delta wave. It really sucks, but, everyone knows, :USA: Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 04:23
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eSports Chaebol posted:I genuinely can’t figure out what the idea is here. It sounds like you’re saying that Taiwan enacting strict anti-COVID isn’t authoritarian because the people accept it—but China doing the same thing is bad? Why? Is it because the Chinese people reject it, unlike the Taiwanese, but have no choice but to comply? Is there any evidence of this? It would make sense if you were saying you thought Taiwan’s approach, while strict, was more measured and represented an ideal political system where compliance exists without a police state—but then you go out of your way to reject that in favor a saying it’s an inescapable dichotomy! How did I reject Taiwan's approach? I was lamenting that we dumbfucks in the West couldn't get with the program early on and were forced into lockdown as a reasonable PHI. The two extremes are either do nothing or chase covid zero regardless of cost. Taiwan chose the middle path, got mass compliance and were rewarded with it. fart simpson posted:i mean, by and large the chinese populace is willing to follow the rules too. especially after the initial wave in early 2020, there's pretty minimal resistance to masking, lockdowns, vaccinations, testing, etc. i'm glad i live in a country that felt like appropriate measures to save millions of lives were worth whatever political blowback happened to the leaders. you realize here that what you're saying is you wish more chinese citizens had died? You are saying welding people shut into their homes is an "appropriate measure?" Having checkpoints on all exits and around the cities to make sure no one leaves their home for any reason is an "appropriate measure"? Lightning blitz lockdowns with almost no warning to the general populace resulting in people stuck in their homes with insufficient food while they wait out their 2 days before they are allowed outside for their necessities is an "appropriate measure"? I guess so if you are an authoritarian government that doesn't give two shits amirite? Also I was responding to this https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3466532&pagenumber=629&perpage=40#post520215201. Specifically commenting on how COVID zero isn't a feasible possibility for most countries and how they have abandoned them but China continues to try to play whack a mole with no judgment on whether the policies the CCP has are or are not bullshit exactly because I wasn't intending to start a COVID slap fight in a China thread. Idiot responds and decides to make it about that topic anyways though so down the rabbit hole we go.
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Dec 27, 2021 05:32
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MikeC posted:You are saying welding people shut into their homes is an "appropriate measure?" Having checkpoints on all exits and around the cities to make sure no one leaves their home for any reason is an "appropriate measure"? Lightning blitz lockdowns with almost no warning to the general populace resulting in people stuck in their homes with insufficient food while they wait out their 2 days before they are allowed outside for their necessities is an "appropriate measure"? I guess so if you are an authoritarian government that doesn't give two shits amirite? How common does something have to be before it makes sense as a criticism of something much larger? You get to a point, where you're using single incidents or otherwise very rare things where you're demanding absolute perfection that no country or government lives up to, then all perspectives become valid, and things get nuts. None of that was even remotely the normal experience for Chinese people during the lockdowns. Chinas huge and some places gently caress up (like they shot that woman's pet) but it's thousands of local governments and one and a half billion people. In Henan we've never gotten welded in our homes, we did have checkpoints and all that but we have always had ways to get food (even if that was sometimes a donated sack of potatoes or a volunteer shopper) and this was probably the experience for 99.999% of people in China. That's why reporting on China is so bad, there's an insane amount of attention on very rare instances and no attention on the bigger things that actually matter in China.
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Dec 27, 2021 05:48
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The whole welding people in their homes poo poo never saw any actual reporting outside of reactions to the videos, too, so its funny how heavily MikeC seems to be relying on it. Most of the detail I've been able to find seems to come to the conclusion that it was overactive and paranoid groups of citizens or local authorities doing it, considering that a guy is yelling how illegal it is in one video. I'd really love some proof that this was even a local policy, instead of a couple incidents, at best.
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Dec 27, 2021 06:05
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The welding people in their homes thing was always bullshit, afaik there is a single video of it that is almost certainly out of context. Also it doesn’t even really make sense if you think about it for a second. EFB Starks fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 06:05
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Recall that SARS had a CFR of ~10% with hospitalization. At those rates, uncontrolled spread would be a country-destroying disaster. The harshness of policies from early 2020 when the virus was not yet well understood must be judged in that context. China aside, humanity as a whole has been massively fortunate that we did not get a virus with the stealthy incubation and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 and yet the mortality of SARS-CoV-1 or MERS-CoV. The dramatic fevers caused by SARS-CoV-1 - the reason why a swathe of the Asia-Pacific countries have armouries of crowd temperature scanners just waiting in storage - was the main reason it could be plausibly intercepted without mass lockdowns. But it was apparent very early on that SARS-CoV-2 did not reliably generate such fevers. ronya fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 06:20
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Varinn posted:The whole welding people in their homes poo poo never saw any actual reporting outside of reactions to the videos, too, so its funny how heavily MikeC seems to be relying on it. Most of the detail I've been able to find seems to come to the conclusion that it was overactive and paranoid groups of citizens or local authorities doing it, considering that a guy is yelling how illegal it is in one video. I'd really love some proof that this was even a local policy, instead of a couple incidents, at best. Maybe we should ask Peng Shuai? I am sure she can vouch for how it was all just a misunderstanding. Oh, that's right, we really have no idea how prevalent it is or wasn't because they censor the bloody press don't they, and they have armies of people deleting poo poo off their social media nets. Maybe that's why no one trusts the statistics coming out of China. 100% poo poo wasn't the defacto policy. But the fact that it happened is still insane. Maybe stories like this is all CIA-inspired propaganda? https://www.ft.com/content/7ed987cb-195e-4f53-bd86-2b21277f6a27 Or maybe China just doesn't trust its own population to do the right thing and will apply draconian measures regardless of how much it fucks people over?
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Dec 27, 2021 06:22
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Feels like a lot of words to say that you couldn't find anything actually substantiating your claims about the welding people in their homes policy! The FT article was an interesting read, but I thought this WSJ article was a little more in-depth: https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-lockdown-exposes-fragility-in-aging-chinese-city-11612353618 The struggle of locking down a city with an overly large elderly population overwhelmed the local authorities, but it sounds like they were eventually able to get human logistic support from outside the city to supplement. Another example of the system straining, but not breaking, under the "authoritarian" pandemic protocols, and leaving countless more people alive than dead. Imagine having the kind of infrastructure! I think whats happening to Peng is awful, but I'm frankly baffled as to why you would invoke the coverup of a rape in a discussion of COVID policy. I think governments across the globe have proven that you can both have callous views about that AND have poor pandemic responses. studio mujahideen fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 06:47
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The door welding isn't really plausibly disputed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlKtfBXGJQM Lots of reports of other cities welding returning migrant workers from Wuhan as well See my previous remark though...
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Dec 27, 2021 06:59
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No one denies that videos exist, but is there any reporting on them as not separate incidents and instead actual local or national covid policy?
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Dec 27, 2021 07:04
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It seems like the sort of thing that maybe some local or regional government might do as part of the panicked response and not exactly representative of the whole country, but also the sort of thing that there would never be public acknowledgement of by the national government of China whether there was an internal investigation or not. It's not like they have any obligation to be open or accountable. The only other big things I remember about the PRC dealing with the pandemic badly was how they were trying to stifle word getting out about the epidemic at the beginning and Sinovac turned out to be much less effective than their claims were. SourKraut posted:Not that I disagree with the general though, since the US is handling Covid like a lovely clusterfuck and somehow worse than Trump, and it's going to be a lot worse in January once the Christmas Super Spread results start coming in. I know people wanna doombrain, but things are definitely getting better and we're at 61% totally vaccinated, and 73% at least partial, and for reference that's while now 87% of the US is eligible for vaccines. It's only a small minority really holding out. We also have reliable non-sabotaged testing.
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Dec 27, 2021 07:13
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Depends how literally one takes "封城、封村、封路、封小区、封家、封门" as an exhortation, I suppose This being China, here is a after-action criticism in China that acknowledges that some... regrettable... local interpretation enacted by local officials may have existed: quote:五、治理手段： quote:5. Governance measures: Xinhua: http://www.xinhuanet.com/2020-02/22/c_1125611271.htm Or from a non-media source, some random minutes from the Third Session of the 13th CPPCC National Committee: http://www.cppcc.gov.cn/zxww/2020/02/21/ARTI1582249272308186.shtml back in mid 2020: quote:陈萌山：应迅速纠正过度防疫措施 quote:Chen Mengshan: Excessive epidemic prevention measures should be quickly corrected In China as in other countries, there are officials pushing to ease or tighten lockdowns; contemporary China is not totalitarian and there isn't One Allowed Opinion as such on most things ronya fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 07:28
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Seems pretty in line with what I thought, yeah. Fun anecdote: my mom lives in a small "town" (census designated place) outside of a major american city that sees a LOT of day tourists passing through on their way to hike/cycle/etc. Early on in the pandemic of a bunch of the locals got whipped up and literally stole road closed signs to adorn their barricade blocking the road into town. This caused a ton of problems and they had to be sternly reminded that it was mega illegal lol beginning of the pandemic was wild
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Dec 27, 2021 07:36
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Speaking as someone in red state America, the whole "welding people into their homes" thing is definitely a thing here. Just test positive for TB and maybe in a year you'll have all your """constitutional rights""" back lol Like if you aren't compliant they will literally station state troopers outside of your boarded up home 24/7. Also no nation in history has imprisoned more of its people than our own
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Dec 27, 2021 09:08
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Epic High Five posted:Speaking as someone in red state America, the whole "welding people into their homes" thing is definitely a thing here. Just test positive for TB and maybe in a year you'll have all your """constitutional rights""" back lol jfc I can't believe I need to explain this in D&D You need to understand, when you detain someone to save lives, that's communism and it's bad. When you imprison someone to make money, that's good and it's actually freedom. It's not that hard, okay?
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Dec 27, 2021 09:58
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MikeC posted:You are saying welding people shut into their homes is an "appropriate measure?" not standard policy, it was just a few incidents very early on afaik and considering what was going on at the time? not really surprised and i can't really blame anyone. i do think forcing people to stay isolated was and sometimes remains appropriate policy, yes, although literally welding specifically is kinda nuts. you can't let people leave of their own choice, or the entire quarantine and lockdown system becomes performative bullshit and millions more people could die. in my area of china, they put a paper seal on the outside of your door so if anyone opened the door before their quarantine period was up, all the neighbors would be alerted and contact the authorities. this made sense to me. e: this was my next door neighbor's place when they came back from hubei province in march 2020:  MikeC posted:Having checkpoints on all exits and around the cities to make sure no one leaves their home for any reason is an "appropriate measure"? yes. as long as you provide and make sure people have the necessities to survive through it. MikeC posted:Lightning blitz lockdowns with almost no warning to the general populace resulting in people stuck in their homes with insufficient food while they wait out their 2 days before they are allowed outside for their necessities is an "appropriate measure"? yes. as long as you provide and make sure people have the necessities to survive through it. do you have any examples where this turned out badly? my mother in law and some of my wife's cousins were stuck in this exact situation back in february 2020 and the neighborhood party organization brought food to their door, and i think this was the normal experience for people in it. in my experience, covid zero and the associated policies are pretty darn popular in china among the actual people. all i can see here is you arguing that you wish millions of chinese people had died because the (extremely effective and popular) measures to contain the pandemic offend you. fart simpson fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 10:05
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Epic High Five posted:Also no nation in history has imprisoned more of its people than our own Proportionally you're still behind late-Stalin Soviet Union, that's still the highest rate known in modern history (and that's only really counting the GULAGs, though at the time they probably held most of prison population of the Soviet Union, so it's probably accurate enough to just count that)*. Though the high point of around 2010 or thereabouts was higher than the average for the GULAG period, and it might still be higher than the average by a little bit**. *Soviet height would be around 1950, when the GULAGs are estimated to have held around 2.5 million people (not counting another 2.8 million people in "internal exile") out of a population of around 180 million, US prison population peaked in 2008 at 2.4 million out of 304 million. **Average for the GULAG period appears to have been between 700 and 800 out of 100,000 people imprisoned, the 2008 US incarceration rate then would be at the high end of that average. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Dec 27, 2021 |
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Dec 27, 2021 10:20
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Epic High Five posted:Speaking as someone in red state America, the whole "welding people into their homes" thing is definitely a thing here. Just test positive for TB and maybe in a year you'll have all your """constitutional rights""" back lol What in the absolute gently caress are you talking about
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Dec 27, 2021 18:41
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:What in the absolute gently caress are you talking about What happens if you test positive for tuberculosis in an American red state. The cops will put you under effectively house arrest
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Dec 27, 2021 20:53
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A big flaming stink posted:What happens if you test positive for tuberculosis in an American red state. TB is massively different from COVID. The bacillus can render you infectious for weeks or months, and is a bitch to cure. And it's the public health service putting you in quarantine. The cops just enforce it.
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Dec 27, 2021 23:31
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Rust Martialis posted:And it's the public health service putting you in quarantine. The cops just enforce it. I mean I would assume that people in China aren't getting told to stay home by local party cadres alone, but possibly due to medical recommendation.
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Dec 27, 2021 23:37
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Rust Martialis posted:TB is massively different from COVID. The bacillus can render you infectious for weeks or months, and is a bitch to cure. I don't disagree with the response! Highly infectious diseases are extremely serious! I was merely providing context to gargoyle
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Dec 28, 2021 00:35
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A big flaming stink posted:What happens if you test positive for tuberculosis in an American red state. A brief search does not pull up evidence of this having happened on any significant scale any time recently.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:35
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:A brief search does not pull up evidence of this having happened on any significant scale any time recently. Check the ebola outbreak in Dallas Texas a few years ago. 'and, Jenkins said, finding a better living situation for Duncan’s partner Louise Troh and the three young men who had been placed under quarantine with her in the apartment. Law enforcement officers stood outside the door blocking the family’s exit from a home where they were forced to stay with linens stained with the sweat of a man infected with one of the most deadly diseases known to man.' https://time.com/3474650/ebola-dallas-judge-jenkins/
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Dec 28, 2021 01:48
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