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Necrothatcher posted:Yeah, I dunno if they have a history of being a dipshit (glance at posts itt and rap sheet says no) but I don't think they were some secret fash troll. Like I said though, when someone crashes into a conversation about one subject with something only tangentially related to the subject and completely irrelevant to the actual discussion then that's at best extremely poor posting and certainly reeks of someone trying to steer the conversation to their particular hobby horse, especially when the tone is very much "Hah you idiots, you morons, you think this one thing and all laughed at me when I said otherwise" (I've no idea if they've ever mentioned this ITT before; I vaguely remember it coming up a while back). When that particular hobby horse is one they share with Alex Jones, David Icke, and the toxoplasmosis worms controlling the US foreign policy blob, and is presented with absolutely no surrounding information, it can only be interpreted as an attempt to try and direct the anxiety and anger over the catastrophe we've all been living in for almost 2 years now at another target other than our willfully negligent leaders. Maybe I should have thought to myself "Huh, maybe this is someone who's just really excited to join the conversation and has just learned A Thing" and spent some time teasing out the deeper meaning of what they were saying (something they've notably failed to do so other than an *extremely* vague "Well it might be useful from an immunology standpoint", which might just maybe have been a valid point last January but after 23 months of study by every lab in the world it's all a bit moot, and something something biosecurity which, again, doesn't really matter after 23 months of almost all the governments in the world *completely* failing at the most basic biosecurity). Maybe with time, and careful mentoring, they could have flowered into A Good Poster with many interesting and varied points but instead I've crushed those dreams, but I don't see why that's on me or any other person. That their subsequent posts were pretty much out of the Just Asking Questions playbook (with a weird offshoot of crybullying where they seemed to be suggesting we people were offering them out for a fight) is *definitely* a problem they need to be looking at. I stopped engaging at that point because there's literally nothing else to be gained from it. We're deep into posting about posters posting about posters now though so I'll drop it and suggest others do too.
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Dec 28, 2021 00:44
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Mugsbaloney posted:Suffice it to say i dunno about all the other stuff but this annoys me
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Dec 28, 2021 00:48
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Pistol_Pete posted:As as I can see, mugsbaloney was posting in good faith and I dunno why some people were reacting with such snarling hostility I was and I genuinely appreciate it ( been lurking for about a So, on the 'and so what if it came from a lab'' point: To me this is a weird question to ask. It is interesting in itself. Yes it is co-morbid with certain wing nut talking points. And? Personally I am also very worried by the tone of anti-china/ new cold war stuff. Admittedly I get most of my opinions about this stuff from RWN, but again, I find them persuasive. What I don't need to do is conflate the two issues. They seem pretty unrelated, although I guess if I'd just been reading a whole buncha infowars maybe I'd be seeing fash under the bed too. But as I understand it, fash aren't too interested in the disinterested pursuit of knowledge and will often make their call to action quite explicit. I don't think anyone could accuse me of doing that here. People can make up their own minds about 1. The article in vanity fair and 2. The podcast I linked. I am not convinced that the people who have dismissed them above have engaged with the arguments, but it's difficult to tell. I just don't think the responses have been very thoughtful, possibly because the thread consensus appears to be that I have bad motives/ am a fash / am an idiot / don't understand science, and therefore people's filters are kicking in. Someone will probably post the (newly updated for 2021) invisible knight chess player thing at me next and I will be so owned it will make my head spin. But I would prefer it to be for reasons that make sense to me on some level. Mugsbaloney fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 00:52
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In my experience it is actually very common for fascist-adjacent people to present their arguments as "just asking questions" which is a large reason for the existence of that phrase. It is a primary tactic of argumentation especially in environments where they anticipate leading with their actual beliefs to result in pushback.
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Dec 28, 2021 00:54
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OwlFancier posted:In my experience it is actually very common for fascist-adjacent people to present their arguments as "just asking questions" which is a large reason for the existence of that phrase. Yeah that's true, but I don't see the relevance to the actual - not imagined- situation.
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Dec 28, 2021 00:58
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Jakabite posted:And I find the backlash to the ‘backlash’ even more tedious but there you go. Please continue your insightful and brilliant posting. Rude
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Dec 28, 2021 01:00
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Because "I'm just saying we can't prove it wasn't made in a lab in china" is indistinguishable from what the standard far right nutcases come out with.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:00
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MeinPanzer posted:. Thanks! I wish more people had... Mugsbaloney fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 01:02
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NotJustANumber99 posted:i dunno about all the other stuff but this annoys me I hear you and will improve.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:07
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Mugsbaloney posted:Yeah that's true, but I don't see the relevance to the actual - not imagined- situation. maybe ask a data scientist to explain it
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Dec 28, 2021 01:20
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Spangly A posted:maybe ask a data scientist to explain it What's your actual problem?
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Dec 28, 2021 01:28
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Mugsbaloney posted:Thanks! I wish more people had... I started reading the article. It's chock full of massively loaded language and unproved assertion. So I stopped reading it. gently caress you for making me start reading it. Also telling people they need to read 15k words of vanity fair + listen to 45 minutes of a loving podcast before they can reply to your posts is bullshit. gently caress you. Edit: I can't spell, and I probably still can't spell.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:32
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There was a woman who worked at that lab who went on Chinese TV and said idiot students, including American and European exchange students, would go into the bat caves to collect samples without wearing masks and spent days a week directly inhaling dedicated bat guano, and she thought "no poo poo covid 19 happened" and that a student probably caught something nasty and went round the place merrily spreading it. I've always thought this is the most likely explanation, given that it's from an actual lab worker and virus expert.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:45
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how did you watch Chinese tv?
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Dec 28, 2021 01:52
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She had some help from an unorthodox left armed spin bowler.
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Dec 28, 2021 01:59
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I think it was put up on youtube during the aftermath to Trump's obnoxious CHYNAH virus bollocks
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Dec 28, 2021 02:01
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Guavanaut posted:She had some help from an unorthodox left armed spin bowler. lmao. nice
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Dec 28, 2021 02:03
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NotJustANumber99 posted:how did you watch Chinese tv? You can find TV from everywhere on the Internet, it's quite amazing.
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Dec 28, 2021 02:07
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Julio Cruz posted:Jolyon the Fox-Killer is about to show how loving dumb he is on Christmas University Challenge Speaking of, did anyone catch him on Sinan Kose’s thing? He seems like he might be on a Peter Daou-esque redemption arc, but I don’t hold out much hope he’s followed through.
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Dec 28, 2021 02:21
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Hey buddy you’re the one who called yourself failed. Maybe have some more self-confidence!!!
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Dec 28, 2021 02:42
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Wasn't peter daou the weird hilary clinton reply guy?
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Dec 28, 2021 02:45
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https://twitter.com/thelucyjohnston/status/1475141754013863943?s=20 If anyone posting or lurking feels like this (no matter what age) post post post. Don't hold it in. I spent 2 hours on Xmas day zooming with a friend who was on her own for the first time ever at xmas having broken up with her partner earlier this year and also having tested positive so not being able to go spend Xmas day with friends as had been planned. She was finding it very very difficult. HELPLINE NUMBERS Reminder of Christmas help line numbers (I'm sure they work outside of Xmas time too): Helplines During the Christmas season, if you're feeling upset or down, please reach out to friends and family. If need be, you can contact a number of mental health organisations who can help. Emergency - Call 999 - Emergency services will attend psychiatric situations that are emergencies such as suspected suicide attempts. Urgent - Call 111 - The number to call if you need medical help fast but it's not a 999 emergency, or you think you need to go to A&E or need another NHS urgent care service Samaritans - Call 116 123 - Whatever you're going through, a Samaritan will face it with you. They are listening 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Call if you want to talk to someone in confidence. Shout - Text SHOUT to 85258 - The UK’s first free 24/7 text service for anyone in crisis anytime, anywhere. It’s a place to go if you’re struggling to cope and you need immediate help.
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Dec 28, 2021 02:53
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OwlFancier posted:Wasn't peter daou the weird hilary clinton reply guy? Yeah, but after the 2016 election he had a Damascene conversion and went all-in for Bernie.
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Dec 28, 2021 02:54
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:https://twitter.com/thelucyjohnston/status/1475141754013863943?s=20 If I didn’t at least have the fantasy of being able to escape at some point, this world would have driven me totally insane long ago. I don’t know how everyone else copes. thank goodness I have a healthy daily diet of shitposting to keep me going 👍🏻
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Dec 28, 2021 03:04
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I've been doing that every day for as long as I can remember, frankly at this point it would be weird if I stopped.
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Dec 28, 2021 03:15
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Comrade Fakename posted:Yeah, but after the 2016 election he had a Damascene conversion and went all-in for Bernie. The Peter Daou face turn is one of the most surprising events in Twitter history. Really thought he was liberalism ride or die but somehow his brain unbroken. Close to unprecedented levels of "man on the Internet acknowledges he was wrong & has actually learned from it". Jaeluni Asjil posted:https://twitter.com/thelucyjohnston/status/1475141754013863943?s=20 It's funny reading this because I'm pretty sure my generation are also a lost generation because things never actually recovered for real people after the Global Financial Crisis, & it's just been one large poo poo sundae after another. Ultimately we've got a massive mental health crisis because absolutely nothing in modern society is healthy and there's very little chance of our material circumstances improving without our parents dying. It's pretty grim but on the plus-side I think my awareness of this really helped me not be massively impacted by COVID mentally. Plus just sort of giving up is actually kind of chill. Not on life but on...people I guess. That sounds more depressing than I mean it to. TACD posted:it’s always a little surprising to me that “thinking of ending your life” is apparently rare? bad? strange? My favourite thing about sertraline is that I really don't have to deal with intrusive suicidal ideation anymore. Highly recommend not having to deal with that anymore, it's amazing. I'm pretty sure it's the pills that help me get through *points hand at everything* rather than giving up on people. Boy it's going to loving suck when the NHS funding gets even lower & I have to pay for my prescription & then one month am unable to.
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Dec 28, 2021 03:42
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I think it was sertraline that made me feel better about my life because the effects of taking the sertraline made everything much worse by comparison.
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Dec 28, 2021 03:52
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Also wrt the lab escape theory, I feel like a lot of people argue in bad faith against it by suggesting that the VF article is positing that COVID was engineered in a lab, as in developed from scratch somehow. As the author lays out in the article, the genetically most similar strain of coronavirus identified in the wild was recovered from a mine in Yunnan where a bunch of miners got sick with a Covid-like disease and held by the Wuhan lab. It’s not a huge stretch at all given the lax protocols recorded that someone could have been infected with a slightly different mutation and spread it from there.
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Dec 28, 2021 03:54
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fatelvis posted:Also telling people they need to read 15k words of vanity fair + listen to 45 minutes of a loving podcast before they can reply to your posts is bullshit. gently caress you. It's one thing to say 'hey it says all this, here's my source if you want to critique the methodology,' and entirely another to (as you say) demand someone reads a 15k article and a 45 minute podcast before you're allowed to approach the marketplace of idea.
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Dec 28, 2021 05:07
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If Covid-19 is a bioweapon created by China and/or released on purpose or by accident from a Chinese lab it changes precisely zero about the situation we're facing now.
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Dec 28, 2021 05:26
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JoylessJester posted:EDIT: While discussing OXBRIDGE comedians I fell off of Richard Herring when he started inviting labour right wingers on his comedy podcast, but I gave a recent episode ago and his Stuart lee bashing asides seem much less light-hearted, did something happen recently? Most recently he lost a testicle, but managed to not go Glinner. Also, the whole pandemic thing.
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Dec 28, 2021 05:28
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Herring's been a twat for a while. He was going pretty hard on twitter about how Eddie Marsan had some good points about stuff.
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Dec 28, 2021 05:50
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I'm not reading any dumb articles about it but I don't really get either side of the Covid lab origin stuff. Like yes, it is totally possible that it originally came out of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. It would hardly be weird for them to be doing work on coronaviruses. The idea it was deliberately released is absurd though because even the zaniest government isn't about to start a society-paralysing plague in one of their own metropolises on purpose, but sure, maybe there was a containment breach. I think it's much more likely to be natural in origin, but I don't think it's insane conspiracy-theory territory to accept it might not be, and I don't know how helpful it is to dogpile people who say as much. Otoh who actually cares where it's from? It's here now and we have to deal with it. Even if it was the product of some shady Chinese biowarfare programme that doesn't really mean anything. Do we honestly believe no other countries have similar dodgy poo poo going on? I can almost guarantee the USA and the UK and a whole bunch of other powers are doing the exact same things. That doesn't imply any malice beyond standard nation-state dark poo poo though. So sure, it maybe did come from the lab. What exactly does that change about anything? Oh, wait, something else we can use to manufacture consent vs China and the CPC by constantly depicting the country as some uniquely awful, despotic Evil Empire. I'm sure that's just a weird coincidence! Makes sense why the usual suspects won't shut up about it but honestly to anyone else, who gives a poo poo? ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 05:50
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The VF article and Mugsbaloney weren’t arguing it was a bio weapon unleashed by the CCP to devastate their enemies. They’re saying it accidentally leaked from a lab where wild varieties of coronaviruses were being kept, studied, and subjected to gain of function research by international teams for legitimate scientific purposes. This is all relevant because if it did come from a lab, then we we seriously need to improve security and safety measures at these facilities to prevent the next pandemic from occurring and/or impose grater firewall measures to prevent outbreaks among staff members. How is that so hard to grasp. This is 100% directly relevant to public health going forward.
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Dec 28, 2021 06:14
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Well sure I don't think anyone would dispute that but institutional biosecurity seems to be quite low down on the list of concerns many people insisting on the lab origin theory have.
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Dec 28, 2021 06:30
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Sure. I don't think you'll find anybody who would argue against "labs that handle deadly viruses should have good security measures" but people who posted that going on about the lab stuff is highly adjacent to fash talking points weren't wrong. Like, if that's the discussion you want to provoke then, OK, yeah, let's have *that* discussion. Here I'll start/end it: Labs that handle deadly viruses should have good security measures. Anybody disagree? No? Alright then. If you want to have some other discussion arising from that stuff, then fine, but if you can't present your points in something other than a very-much-fash-adjacent seeming way, or insisting that people devote a few hours of their time to reading a massive article and watching videos before they're allowed to comment on it, don't be surprised if people rightly don't want to engage with you and/or tell you to piss off.
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Dec 28, 2021 06:31
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Who in this thread was bringing up the fash talking points you’re talking about? Genuinely curious about this because I’ve read this whole exchange and been surprised by the violent response. All I’ve seen is people immediately shutting down any legitimate discussion of the evidence for the lab leak theory ( which I’m not entirely convinced by but which is actually compelling if you go through it).
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Dec 28, 2021 06:42
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Seems like we're going round in circles so I'll just quote these:goddamnedtwisto posted:Like I said though, when someone crashes into a conversation about one subject with something only tangentially related to the subject and completely irrelevant to the actual discussion then that's at best extremely poor posting and certainly reeks of someone trying to steer the conversation to their particular hobby horse, especially when the tone is very much "Hah you idiots, you morons, you think this one thing and all laughed at me when I said otherwise" (I've no idea if they've ever mentioned this ITT before; I vaguely remember it coming up a while back). The bolded part is where I and many others are at with this, seemingly. No you don't have a right for others to engage with your arguments no matter how well-reasoned or important you deem them to be. Also: OwlFancier posted:Because "I'm just saying we can't prove it wasn't made in a lab in china" is indistinguishable from what the standard far right nutcases come out with. OwlFancier posted:In my experience it is actually very common for fascist-adjacent people to present their arguments as "just asking questions" which is a large reason for the existence of that phrase. It is a primary tactic of argumentation especially in environments where they anticipate leading with their actual beliefs to result in pushback. You are currently "Just asking questions". Furthermore, posting that is essentially "Why won't anybody engage with my arguments?!?" is really just a half-step away from right wing bros screaming "DEBATE MEEEE!!!". And I won't be posting about this anymore. If you want more debate, read this post again. WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 06:47
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My plan for post-Christmas of only using my phone as a phone, and having it on silent, is so far working perfectly. Social media is a massive cancer and even 24 hours away from it has done me a world of good. After a rotten year mental health wise, I've decided this year to ignore the macro and focus on the micro. I was talking the whole world on my shoulders, and it was having no positive impact on me or the situation. I have decided to be a bit more selfish and insular this year, focusing purely on my family and friends. Getting into online debates with anti-vaxxers, Boris lovers and global warming deniers just wastes my energy. My demands of myself: Every time I feel like going on the internet, read a chapter of a book instead. Last year I started reading the "All Creatures Great and Small" series, and I can highly recommend. At least for me, really helped with my mood. Spend at least one day a month going on a massive hike. Amazing site for this for anyone in London or Kent: https://www.walkingclub.org.uk/ Telling people "I don't want to hear about that poo poo." instead of just passively engaging and ruining my mental health. That goes for people on the right AND the left. Like, I don't need to hear "you'll never believe the racist poo poo the police have done!". I will fully believe it, I've heard it all before and it does me no good to know the specifics. Completely disengaging with politics. I got the perfect politician for me in Jeremy Corbyn, and his defeat at the hands of his own party, to the worst politician for me, completely broke me. I've been keeping up with Kier and laughing at what a loser he is, but that does me no good. Neither does knowing the specifics (a trend) of how the Tories are being awful. I know it's the height of privilege in this society to not be materially impacted by anything the government does, but as a married white straight male homeowner with a good job, I can just assume the worst of the Tories and turn my back on the whole thing. I will continue donating to various causes I support (primarily animal rights, woodland trust etc), but as I already know the Tories are massive cunts, it does me no good to know the minutiae of HOW they're actively being cruel and loving this country up. Eating healthy & going essentially vegetarian. Reading All Creatures, as well as having a cat, has made a vaguely sick feeling I get at eating meat all the stronger. My wife's in the same boat, so we're going to try cutting out all meat, unless we're at someone else's house or on high days & holidays. We're already pretty close to that anyway, so this should be the easiest one. Continuing to read https://www.thesimplethings.com/ magazine cover to cover once a month. It really is a great read, dedicated to positive energy. They have articles like, the history of the lighthouse, or interviews with local woolmakers about their relationship with tea, and great recipes. My friends have started calling it The Cult because I never shut the gently caress up about it, but I highly recommend a subscription, has done me a world of good. Sorry for the rant, and I know I'm hardly the first person to say "new year new me", but there we are.
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Dec 28, 2021 08:35
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Bobby Deluxe posted:If he can't adequately summarise the relevant points, he probably didn't understand them properly himself. I'm not trying to evangelise though, I just wanted to know what other people thought about the article? This is a discussion forum and I wanted to have a discussion - if you got thirty or so people telling you to gently caress off, would that put you in a summarising mood? Frankly I'm past caring at this point. This has been a miserable and hideous experience.
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Dec 28, 2021 08:41
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