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Patware posted:do you have any counterpoints there were three times when i was bothered by a story beat in the comic, the pacing of annie being confronted about copying off of kat, the resolution of twin annies & tony monologue, and the relatively underwhelming end of kat's existential crisis. i took a break from the comic after the tony monologue and then came back to it and it's been fine for me since. i do not think there is a significant difference in how the current chapters are being written vs five years ago. i think this chapter is cute and fun personally i'm not trying to stomp on critique, i just think some people might be better off taking a break from it and then seeing if it still grabs you if you come back. also i think psychoanalyzing cartoonists is creepy (only a couple of people have done this) and was my least favorite aspect of the general webcomic thread before i stopped posting there (that's why i mentioned buckwild takes). if it turns out the majority of people aren't enjoying the comic anymore it might be better to just phase the thread out  just seems like the vibe of the thread is getting more and more miserable and it bums me out. also posts like "all the good stuff in gunnerkrigg was by accident" make me roll my eyes
The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 05:21
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coolusername posted:Even the comments to the comic's latest pages (normally the most cheerleady, many of whom loved Annie's Tony monologue) are going ??? about the latest Shadowmen swerves and the lack of Loup resolution. Me: Huh I wonder what those comments are li  You want some author psychoanalysis? I think Tom is a sociopath for approving this and therefore making me read it with my eyeballs
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Dec 29, 2021 05:42
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shell sucks we don’t need yet another character to stand around going “w-w-w-what’s THIS all about, then,” especially since it seems like three-quarters of the cast has been converted to serving that same purpose
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Dec 29, 2021 05:44
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Oxxidation posted:shell sucks Oh wait I forgot Red went off on a bizarre teardown of Annie that was ultimately completely pointless because Kat told her none of it was true and she did nothing wrong 5 minutes later, and therefore felt like a weird excuse to castigate Annie some more, the thing that this comic loves. And now she's gone forever because who needs two of the most interesting characters in the comic when they can say "gently caress you" to the protagonist and ollie out for no real practical reason. Seriously why did that chapter exist. "To provide a consequence to annie"? I mean, see: psychopomps, see: everything with Loup... The 7th Guest posted:that shell is a fun character, there hasn't been a tonal shift, and the comic has always read better in chunks than singular updates I also disagree that there is no difference in how the chapters are being written. Annie has had a significant loss of agency IMO. But I respect your opinions and I do think that mock threads can turn into vile little dens of weird garbage which is not an ideal fate. That said, I think it's a bad sign that an increasing amount of people are expressing dissatisfaction with the comic and points to legitimate problems with it that are not an issue of serial vs non.
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Dec 29, 2021 05:52
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Tiny Myers posted:But I respect your opinions and I do think that mock threads can turn into vile little dens of weird garbage which is not an ideal fate. That said, I think it's a bad sign that an increasing amount of people are expressing dissatisfaction with the comic and points to legitimate problems with it that are not an issue of serial vs non. with SA discussions there's a clear difference in tone between people who like something, people who like something but have issues, people who used to like something that are becoming disillusioned, and people who are hate-consuming, and that tone gets more and more nasty as it shifts. there used to be a lot of cartoonists that posted in the webcomics thread on BSS in the late 2000s (including Tom) when it was mostly sharing cool webcomics, but as the thread became more negative and hostile, most of them stopped posting (and I know personally that some of them specifically left BECAUSE of the webcomics thread). I dunno what the webcomics thread is like today because I stopped reading it years ago for similar reasons. i just don't want this thread to end up the same way, because for years it was a very chill webcomic thread compared to.. well, almost all the others here, and produced a lot of fun fanart and photoshops and just good vibes (and good avatars). i dunno how to walk the tightrope here with what i'm saying, i want people to be free to criticize the comic but i also don't want to see people not feel comfortable enjoying the comic here either. if one drowns out the other it's bad, either way! The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 06:04
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the webcomics thread is now a husk because no one ever expresses an opinion on something for concerns of being "disruptive." the one in byob only has a dozen regular posters all told but is far more lively because people discuss things there and that's what this is, discussion. gunnerkrigg court has been a bloodless snore of a story for years and it's good that people are starting to pick up on that and drill into the whys and wherefores
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Dec 29, 2021 06:15
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Threads that turn into hate threads are boring because it's just people looking for reasons to hate something. Often the people involved don't even understand what makes something bad and they have to start inventing reasons. This is why I made a point of steering the webcomics thread away from hate-watching when I was asked to be OP (and in fact it was for this reason that the last OP asked me to do it). The idea that you aren't allowed to dislike things is just silly, but there are a lot of topics where everything that can be said has already been said (Questionable Content comes to mind) and there's no need to rehash it every time someone remembers it exists. This thread, on the other hand, still has plenty of interesting discussion of just what the hell is going on, which makes it good. Rand Brittain fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 07:25
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Oxxidation posted:... webcomics ...is now a husk Yes.
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Dec 29, 2021 08:22
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Oxxidation posted:... webcomics ...is now a husk when k6bd ends i think that's the last one i still care about
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Dec 29, 2021 08:51
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Patware posted:when k6bd ends i think that's the last one i still care about Try Sleepless Domain. That's the good poo poo Also, new page. At least we're getting somewhat into the structure of the Shadow Men and how the Court's move is going to be handled. I wonder if "the seed Bismuth" is something grown with Ether kind of like one would water a real seed. So they wanted to use Coyote's power and now that they don't have that option, they're looking for something else to water it. Maybe Coyote helped water it in the beginning of things. Kind of confused why if Aata is the head of the organization he was removed. Like, can't you write your own rules? Who oversees it?
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Dec 29, 2021 09:26
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So wait are the Shadow Men a particular sect of Court people? Correct me if I’m wrong but if the headmaster is in it, I don’t think we’ve ever had contact with Court leadership that *aren’t* in this group?
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Dec 29, 2021 12:00
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absolutely buck wild to be sixteen years into this webcomic and one of the major antagonist forces is like 85% undefined
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Dec 29, 2021 12:19
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Patware posted:85% undefined undefined and accomplishing nothing. their biggest and best effort that we've seen included having their leader on the front line, and still failed, seemingly miserably with how easily coyote just sorta walked away. and now it's not even a priority? they're just gonna leave? he builds up such conflict, such potential for action and consequences, and then loving nothing ever happens. every major plotline with the exception of jeanne has either been solved completely off screen, or in a horribly dissatisfying way. The 7th Guest posted:words i get wanting to discourage too much negative discussion, but you need to understand where it's coming from. i've been reading serially for i think almost 12 years now. the comic has continued to build promises like it always has, but like i said above, the resolutions have been extremely unearned and disappointing. i'm looking at the current plotlines and i'm just waiting for them to disappoint me now. it won't matter if i read it in chunks, if i feel like i can't trust the author with the resolutions to the situations he presents. i'm still very invested in the characters, but they feel like plastic dolls being shoved through the motions of plot beats. we don't get to see annie's internal monologue anymore, every character seems like they only pop up for exactly the part of the story that involves them, and leaves the comic feeling very hollow and lifeless. add on these new characters that i have absolutely no attachment to, especially immediately after a major attack on the court, and i'm just feeling hopeless. i want resolution. i have sunk too much of my time and headspace on these characters to just walk away. but... just how long does tom plan to continue writing this? are we even close to the end? does he intend to have an end at all? it's just incredibly frustrating. he dangled action and consequence in our faces, and pulled another gotcha. i'm tired, and bored. a hiatus will only distance me from the characters even more.
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Dec 29, 2021 18:30
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Tiny Myers posted:Kind of confused why if Aata is the head of the organization he was removed. Like, can't you write your own rules? Who oversees it? Yeah I'm confused by this too. Couldn't he just say "magic is fine in life or death situations" or something? He clearly knew how to use magic, so it's not like he used it spontaneously without realizing it or something, so he just had knowledge of this technique that he knew would get him excommunicated? There must be like, some leaders above the shadow men or something cus I can't think of a way this makes sense otherwise. Maybe the shadow men are like a cult, and there's kind of a group consensus on the whole deal, and the leader is more of a figurehead? So the leader can guide the group and their goals, but can't really make any sudden controversial changes or they'll be removed.
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Dec 29, 2021 18:37
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Niavmai posted:undefined and accomplishing nothing. their biggest and best effort that we've seen included having their leader on the front line, and still failed, seemingly miserably with how easily coyote just sorta walked away. and now it's not even a priority? they're just gonna leave? If you're writing this many words to complain, it's probably a good idea to just stop reading.
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Dec 29, 2021 18:43
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There Bias Two posted:If you're writing this many words to complain, it's probably a good idea to just stop reading. no, you stop posting 
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Dec 29, 2021 18:44
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There Bias Two posted:If you're writing this many words to complain, it's probably a good idea to just stop reading. What is the correct number of words? The ones you're using to complain about someone else?
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Dec 29, 2021 18:47
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Patware posted:absolutely buck wild to be sixteen years into this webcomic and one of the major antagonist forces is like 85% undefined I feel like a major issue here is that it felt like the Shadow Men were more defined than this, because they were leaning on Standard Shadowy Conspiracy, but now that's broken down into this bizarre incompetent blur.
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Dec 29, 2021 18:48
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CodfishCartographer posted:Yeah I'm confused by this too. Couldn't he just say "magic is fine in life or death situations" or something? He clearly knew how to use magic, so it's not like he used it spontaneously without realizing it or something, so he just had knowledge of this technique that he knew would get him excommunicated? There must be like, some leaders above the shadow men or something cus I can't think of a way this makes sense otherwise. He himself believes he should be removed for using magic. He doesn't want there to be a rule where it's okay to use it, because he doesn't think it is; he only did it because the alternative was watching someone he cared about get killed and his comment on it was "in my failure, I prove myself correct". (The "failure" here being "using magic".) We don't really know how they pick leaders, but being the leader doesn't mean he necessarily has absolute power, either; it seems likely there's some kind of council or review board or general vote of the membership that decides these kinds of things. Niavmai posted:undefined and accomplishing nothing. their biggest and best effort that we've seen included having their leader on the front line, and still failed, seemingly miserably with how easily coyote just sorta walked away. and now it's not even a priority? they're just gonna leave? They were stealing Coyote's power specifically so they could leave; since that didn't work, they're now looking for some other way to power their departure. At the moment, we don't know precisely why they're leaving or where they're going or why they need etheric power to get there. This plot point just got revealed recently, so that information is still to come. I do sometimes wonder if people forget what comic they're reading. GKC has always brought up plot points gradually and revealed them gradually, over the course of years; why would you expect it to stop doing that now? The process has certainly accelerated some, likely because the ending of the comic is getting closer, but that doesn't mean we're just going to seize one plot thread and follow it until the end; it's going to keep shifting between the remaining things until they're all resolved. (So, for instance, we got an update on what's going on with the robots for half this chapter.) It's cool if you don't like that, but it's not something that just started happening recently and it's not going to stop. (Nor would I, for one, actually want it to.)
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Dec 29, 2021 19:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:GKC has always brought up plot points gradually and revealed them gradually, over the course of years; why would you expect it to stop doing that now? i specifically said that he was good at doing this, and then terrible at giving us satisfying resolutions. that's my whole point.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:37
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I wasn't speaking specifically to you, but sure. I actually disagree about that, though. The plot with Jeanne is a great counterexample; the ending of that was very satisfactory. Ditto the mystery of What Was Up With Annie's Mom.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:43
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There Bias Two posted:If you're writing this many words to complain, it's probably a good idea to just stop reading. Discussion is good. I get wanting to avoid turning this into a mock thread, because they really do tend to go off the rails and become a weird hyperbolic echo chamber, but the flipside to that is that threads where nobody is allowed to say anything negative just turn into empty husks with nothing but white noise in them. I think it's reasonable for people to have frustrations or dissatisfaction with Gunnerkrigg has been going, and so long as it's being expressed in good faith I don't think it's really fair to try and shut them down.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:52
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Snake Maze posted:Discussion is good. I get wanting to avoid turning this into a mock thread, because they really do tend to go off the rails and become a weird hyperbolic echo chamber, but the flipside to that is that threads where nobody is allowed to say anything negative just turn into empty husks with nothing but white noise in them. I think it's reasonable for people to have frustrations or dissatisfaction with Gunnerkrigg has been going, and so long as it's being expressed in good faith I don't think it's really fair to try and shut them down. I wasn't trying to shut down discussion, I just didn't think the person seemed happy.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:06
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So couple thoughts here from whats been going on and the discussion at present. 1) I don't think Aata and Shell are human. I think they're either transformed forest creatures or human adjacent experiments due to court meddling. Aata is super obvious about this of course, while Shell is drawn super differently from the rest of the cast. Only other character with a similar style is Coyote and Loup. If Shell doesn't have some reason why she is drawn so oddly I will be very grumped by this. 2) Mentioned a few pages earlier, the wind down of the Jeanne arc and the beginning of the Loup arc really hosed with the tone of the comic. The plot threat really doesn't allow the quiet investigation and side stories of earlier Gunnerkrigg. I think this is the biggest reason why Annie has lost so much of her agency, she can't explore and solve things on her own while there is an existential threat to her and her friends. 3) I think they should fridge Loup. Just wind this arc down now, even if it is unsatisfying, even if it is worse than two Annie's resolution. Loup isn't fun the way Tom has it set up, the plot has to focus on him or else it feels atonal that no one is acknowledging the massive threat. There is no room for fluffy side stories. "Let's get Shelly hooked up with Aata!" *God wolf rips apart a building full of people* "Oh Shelly your dress is great!" If the robots were to be brought back online or alternatively enough of them became human and somehow managed to kill Loup (or hold Loup down long enough for Annie to coup de grace him) then you could close the arc and then really ramp up with the creepy robo-cult deifying Kat trying to turn her into a robo-god. Then you'll get rid of a crappy antagonist, you'll reset the doomsday counter and you'll be building up to a new mystery for the Scooby gang to solve. TlDR: I blame Loup, he's a misstep, let's get some of the other plot beats going or use one of the plot beats to kill Loup and have them assume the next big bad.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:09
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I don’t hate Gunnerkrigg, it’s the fact that I used to love it that drives me to criticism. I’d still argue that Coyote has one of the best comic character designs ever and his introduction pages and astral projection moments where he’s represented by shapes are artistically beautiful in a way a lot of webcomics can’t match. It’s got excellent representation in Kat and Paz. The classmates are all convincing teenagers with fun little dynamics, bringing in the forest creatures turned human like faeries was great for comedy and for a completely different worldview clash. The psychopomp designs are awesome, as is Kat’s god robot insect form. You uh… see the issue here, yeah? Everything I loved about it, what I thought of as its beating heart, just isn’t there any more. But i still hope it comes back.
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Dec 30, 2021 03:25
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gunnerkrigg has always been far more about the journey rather than the destination, but now the journey kind of loving sucks too. and focusing on a brand new addition to the cast just feels awful when a ton of far more interesting members have been MIA for months or even years. remember jones? i liked jones. where the hell is jones considering a loving god is on a rampage
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Dec 30, 2021 10:03
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Probably watching what's happening. I'd bet it's not her first God rampage.
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Dec 30, 2021 10:34
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Gunnerkrigg always felt like X-Files to me. Mystery upon mystery and sometimes there’s something of a resolution. But most of the times the resolution is a mystery itself. I’m fine with that. So who thinks Zimmy will be the new source of Ether for the shadow men?
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Dec 30, 2021 10:49
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the problem with gunnerkrigg is clearly that too much happens. tom should have fully embraced its meandering nature long ago and largely abandoned plot in favour of pure slice-of-life
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Dec 30, 2021 11:51
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was the plan always 'exit, pursued by a coyote' or was this a post-Loup adaptation Omega is not only a device/project but also a person who is in the loop; we still don't know who Omega is. That's certainly an ominous codename, anyway. Maybe it's a robot?
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Dec 30, 2021 13:26
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Donkringel posted:Shell is drawn super differently from the rest of the cast. Only other character with a similar style is Coyote and Loup. If Shell doesn't have some reason why she is drawn so oddly I will be very grumped by this. She's from Cardiff.
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Dec 30, 2021 15:58
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lih posted:the problem with gunnerkrigg is clearly that too much happens. tom should have fully embraced its meandering nature long ago and largely abandoned plot in favour of pure slice-of-life I wonder how many people would be complaining about a lack of plot? Meanwhile, someone has....theories? 
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Dec 31, 2021 01:41
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argh
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Dec 31, 2021 01:59
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waiting to see what bladekindeyewear has to say
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Dec 31, 2021 07:23
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Bilirubin posted:waiting to see what bladekindeyewear has to say 
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Dec 31, 2021 07:36
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Positive talk: I really like the Aata panel, the art is great whenever it goes full painting. It very much has that glowy bronze Bodhisattva statue look to it.
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Dec 31, 2021 12:10
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If this leads to actually getting a better picture on how sinister the Court is and how it works - like recruiting and de-sacralizing saints I guess?? - this will be a good chapter imo.
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Dec 31, 2021 12:34
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it would rule, to learn some facts (to maintain my presence as thread pissbaby: 'focus, girl' is such a weird line to come out of annie's mouth)
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Dec 31, 2021 12:44
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ronya posted:Omega is not only a device/project but also a person who is in the loop; we still don't know who Omega is. That's certainly an ominous codename, anyway. Maybe it's a robot? My current guess is that it's some sort of etheric supercomputer. Maybe it can see some version of the future. coolusername posted:Positive talk: I really like the Aata panel, the art is great whenever it goes full painting. It very much has that glowy bronze Bodhisattva statue look to it. Yeah agreed. I'm guessing we're gonna find out Aata failed to attain enlightenment, hence Coyote's "failed cousin" remark.
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Dec 31, 2021 14:33
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why do some people so desperately desire to stomp out critique and personal reader experience "hate threads get boring" nah, you've got it backwards: "only say good things" threads get boring I read a bunch of the recent chapters in bulk yesterday. they're flimsy. they're phoned in. it looks like I'm far from alone itt. there's some reasons why these chapters are flimsy, and there's been a lot of good discussion identifying the parts of the story that are getting lost. there's been a lot of very plausible reasons why that might be happening. categorizing the last few pages in here as a slippery slope toward hate-thread-ism is odd. abjectly shooting down critique without pertinent counterpoint is boring. talking about stuff with other fans of that stuff without involving the whole spectrum of thoughts--positive and negative criticism alike--is unsustainable.
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Dec 31, 2021 15:18
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