(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Edit: for people coming back and looking at this in posterity; I'm not at all advancing this mythology as stuff I believe, I was speculating on the original question - what is people's rationalization for holding up a guy who was in the SS as a national hero. I did a poor job of being very very specific that this isn't what I believe, or that its anything approaching a good rationalization. Ultimately below I repeated some stuff that's white washing in the course of looking at how people rationalize lauding some SS members as national heros. Doing that in any way becomes very close to de facto playing devils advocate for actual nazis, even though that wasn't my intent, and that's not something that should be done, least of all in a CSPAM thread. A ban was well deserved. If you go over the next couple of pages you'll see some good academic sources refuting the Ukrainian far-right rationalizations and white washing I repeated in a misguided attempt to look at their rationalizations in the abstractSome Guy TT posted:do they have a rationalization for why they needed to do this that isnt literally just yea we love nazis Was wondering this myself, and it seems there's actually some interesting lore there, with people claiming specifically that that unit was made up of a bunch of people who largely chose what they saw as the lesser of two evils to fight against the USSR. Very little info available in English for such a niche thing, but for example this book about the unit has the blurb: quote:This new book is a historical account of the 14th Waffen-SS Galicia Division (also known as the 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army). In 1943/1944 a determined group of young men and women in Galicia volunteered to serve in a combat division destined for eastern front combat. Their goal: to engage and destroy the Soviet hordes menacing their homeland and to counter Nazi Germany's subjugation of their country. Although initially Galicia's Volunteers would serve in a German sponsored military formation, in actuality the volunteers of the Galicia division wanted to engage all hostile ideologies-both from the east and west-in order to secure a free independent Ukraine. The division's history is presented along with a human aspect of what the soldiers endured during the brutal battles on the eastern front. Not idea if that book really backs those claims well or not, but it's if nothing else probably illustrative about what a bunch of people in Ukraine probably believe, and that interpretation potentially makes some sense when you consider the background of the Holodomor that you might take up arms with people you probably don't like against the guys that (if nothing else they believed) intentionally starved millions of people in your country to death. Probably there's some leftist takes on the Holodomor and I'm not familiar with whatever debate there might be but ngl I'm gonna err on the side that Stalin did some hosed up stuff. That unit of the SS btw formed the core of The Ukranian National Army which was meant to centralize all the Ukrainian units that were fighting against the Soviets, but seems to have been only pretty loosely under German control at the time it was formed, a couple months before German se This guy's story from the same era also gives some interesting illustrative anecdotes: quote:In November 1943 during negotiations with the Germans Borovets was arrested by the Gestapo in Warsaw and incarcerated in Sachsenhausen concentration camp.[17] In Autumn 1944 the Nazis, looking for Ukrainian support in the war they were losing, freed Borovets.[18] He was forced to change his nom de guerre to Kononenko and under this name he led the formation of a Ukrainian special forces detachment in the structure of the Waffen-SS (around 50 men). This detachment should have been dropped in the rear of the Red Army for guerrilla warfare. Those plans never came to fruition and in the end of war Ukrainian nationalist allies of Hitler demanded being transferred away from the Eastern Front to be able to surrender to allies. Borovets' detachment surrendered to the allies on May 10, 1945, and were interned in Rimini (Italy).[19] Dude literally went from a concentration camp to being put under the structure of the SS because the Nazis were that desperate to get more warm bodies to fight the Soviets at the time, and the dude was apparently okay with making that deal to fight back against the Soviets at that time. So I'm guessing that if that tweet is true (that tweet is literally the only thing I can find in English mentioning this btw so who knows) I'm guessing that it's focused upon people who were known individuals famous for fighting against the Soviets, given the current political climate, and is willing to overlook the connections to the SS while doing that. That whole era and all the places and peoples between the Stalin-led USSR and Nazi Germany were a loving mess with all the conflicts and splinter groups and people holding their nose and joining either side, or just fighting against all sides, and a fuckload of people who didn't actually like the Nazis (again look at above example of Taras Bulba-Borovets who went from anger at his own people for lynching Poles in some of their endless ethnic bullshit, to Nazi concentration camp, to literally being under the SS shortly after) ultimately fought with them because they saw them as the lesser evil, just as various groups in the middle east and central asia fight with or against various terrorist/freedom fighter groups or the US because they see one or the other the best ally for their intended goals even if they really don't loving like them. Another example of this is the commander of the aforementioned Ukrainian National Army who was part of the Russian military, then fought for Ukraine against the Russian forces, then worked for the Ukrainian gov't in exile, then was a Colonel in the Polish Army fighting against the Nazis, then was a POW, got released, worked at a movie theater while giving shelter to Polish underground members being hunted by the Gestapo, then went on to become the head of the Ukrainian National Army which was technically under German command. Literally in the space of a year helping the underground against the Nazis and keeping people safe from the Gestapo, to being technically the leader of a large military force, with a core of people from an SS unit, that is under the blanket of the German command (but maybe had a level of independence? not super clear). So, yeah, in most contexts and in the West in general people are going to shy away from lionizing anyone who touched the Nazis at all, but reality is way more complicated, *especially* in that era and place, and Ukrainian national lore from that era probably makes a lot of compromises there that come off as real uncomfortable from outside perspectives or for people who see the complexities of that era and the conflicts, so make of it what you will I think, but there's more there in general than just going "yo this dude who was in the SS fuckin rocked", and though there's not much info on him I can find personally, he's probably seen as one of these Ukrainian nationalist who threw their lot in with Germany in the hope they could work out something better than what the Soviets gave them back when, et al. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) LimburgLimbo has issued a correction as of 12:40 on Feb 26, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2021 19:01
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LimburgLimbo posted:Was wondering this myself, and it seems there's actually some interesting lore there, with people claiming specifically that that unit was made up of a bunch of people who largely chose what they saw as the lesser of two evils to fight against the USSR. Very little info available in English for such a niche thing, but for example this book about the unit has the blurb: its not complicated, they're nazis and reactionaries support them. shut the gently caress up. can someone make this moron go away
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Dec 29, 2021 19:10
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thats an awful lot of grey area thinking from a guy who thinks theres only one possible interpretation of a long rambling blog post that vaguely implies sexual assault exactly once in a narrative thats mostly just complaining that her rapist isnt assertive enough when it comes to his wife making catty remarks about their relationship
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Dec 29, 2021 19:10
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Some Guy TT posted:thats an awful lot of grey area thinking from a guy who thinks theres only one possible interpretation of a long rambling blog post that vaguely implies sexual assault exactly once in a narrative thats mostly just complaining that her rapist isnt assertive enough when it comes to his wife making catty remarks about their relationship Oh my bad your narrative is that she only seems to have been "actually" sexually assaulted once, totally cool then, thank you my good goon sir sounds totally cool then and not at all gross
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Dec 29, 2021 19:16
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lmao you guys say you don't want me here and then keep giving these amazing takes that keep me coming back for more rubbernecking
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Dec 29, 2021 19:17
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Oh God dammit For gently caress's sake etc.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:18
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who gave timothy snyder an account
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Dec 29, 2021 19:30
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Also since we're apparently still not over the Peng Shuai thing, lets hit up the old Baidu for the latest developments: A search for 王力宏 the singer who's wife just gave a lurid account of his affairs and mistreatment of her, and is being constantly discussed in Chinese media. Wow that's a bunch of articles! A search for 彭帅 where you can see.... hmm wait. That's odd, you only get results from... 2018, 2016, 2014, 2005? Weird. Surely people would be talking about a celebrity and the drama around her. Man I wonder what's different about these two celebrities caught up in "affairs". Definitely nothing to do with prominent politicians being involved, thats for sure! I'm sure that Peng Shuai would definitely be free to say whatever she wanted about things or clarify her blog post though. No chance there would be any negative consequences from the same people who are trying to restrict circulation of her info, right? Of course you say, the info is out there, and it can't be shut down entirely, so there are surely articles, and indeed there are. Funny how you can't find those articles on Baidu searches though.... Ah well I'm sure there's nothing going on here, probably just some minor Baidu hiccup and not at all something Chinese net and news companies know to steer well clear of. LimburgLimbo has issued a correction as of 19:56 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 19:34
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Wait, so what you're saying is that members of the state are above the law? Someone should write a pamphlet about this, preferably while hiding in a barn.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:49
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Very disappointed in the Chinese government for their reluctance to nuke all personal celebrity drama off the internet.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:59
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LimburgLimbo posted:Oh my bad your narrative is that she only seems to have been "actually" sexually assaulted once, totally cool then, thank you my good goon sir sounds totally cool then and not at all gross Oh my bad your narrative is that the nazis only seem to have been "actually" done a concentration camp in ukraine once, totally cool then, thank you my good goon sir sounds totally cool then and not at all gross
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Dec 29, 2021 20:00
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LimburgLimbo posted:Also since we're apparently still not over the Peng Shuai thing, lets hit up the old Baidu for the latest developments: you should hang out in the sexual assault thread in cined if youre such a big fan of coverups of celebrities and the people in power positions over them doing sex crimes weird that you prefer kramering in here instead considering this is a subject youre obviously so passionate about
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Dec 29, 2021 20:02
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Ukrainian ultranationalism isn't complicated.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:03
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CSPAM: "Yes North Korea has some very regressive policies but you have to understand that's because they've been under constant threat from a massive power that had previously killed millions of people in their country, and their current dysfunctional political state needs to be understood with that context" Also CSPAM: "Stalin did nothing wrong"
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Dec 29, 2021 20:14
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there's more than a bit of daylight between criticism of some soviet policies in Ukraine and the loving OUN or Ukrainian SS volunteers
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Dec 29, 2021 20:15
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You probably think you're real smart with that non sequitor.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:15
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the hell is it with today and people just going off with boredom-rage
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Dec 29, 2021 20:16
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14th SS Galizien Division is one of those SS volunteer units that certain kind of liberals (particularly Canadian) love to harp on as being one of the good SS divisions. One for whom alleged atrocities have never been proven to be committed. This ignores the fact that by the time 14th SS Galizien was formed, most of the work of the Holocaust had already been done by the middle of 1943. Its members had already committed all the atrocities they wanted to as UNA/OUN members or as members of police battalions. So really it's more like their preferred targets, like Jews & Poles, had already been wiped out in Ukraine. Bringing up individual examples of "good Nazis" or ultranats is just pathetic apologetics for a mass murdering criminal organization and its members.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:22
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You probably think you're real smart with that non sequitor. ngl it is actually interesting how apt it is in a way. The Ukraine has a bunch of hosed up stuff and a bunch of hosed up ultranationalists and you can probably trace a lot of that back to how they were caught in the middle or the periphery of like every goddamn conflict in 20th century Europe. North Korea has a similar history with getting caught up in cold war bullshit and getting holocausted by US bombing, and both are messed up places now. Though the Ukraine at least has various factions and a level of representative democracy (kinda sorta) and is probably in a way more "salvageable" than North Korea. You could potentially drive out far-right factions in the Ukraine politically without needing to undo the entire structure/govt/society, but I rather doubt it could be done with North Korea and their cult of personality stuff, though I'd love to be proved wrong in the coming decades re: North Korea. But the CSPAM take will be pretty black and white due to the underpinning ideological differences, which is what it is.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:26
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Why we always talking about nazis anyways. Cause us ia third reich?
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Dec 29, 2021 20:28
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LimburgLimbo posted:ngl it is actually interesting how apt it is in a way. The Ukraine has a bunch of hosed up stuff and a bunch of hosed up ultranationalists and you can probably trace a lot of that back to how they were caught in the middle or the periphery of like every goddamn conflict in 20th century Europe. North Korea has a similar history with getting caught up in cold war bullshit and getting holocausted by US bombing, and both are messed up places now. Though the Ukraine at least has various factions and a level of representative democracy (kinda sorta) and is probably in a way more "salvageable" than North Korea. You could potentially drive out far-right factions in the Ukraine politically without needing to undo the entire structure/govt/society, but I rather doubt it could be done with North Korea and their cult of personality stuff, though I'd love to be proved wrong in the coming decades re: North Korea. Ukraine has been tumbling through a series of dysfunctional governments since the fall of the Soviet Union, and their turn towards Ukrainian chauvinism wasn't triggered by any foreign threat on the scale of - say - constantly keeping North Korea in a state of war & isolation while running military exercises every year just to prove we can destroy them at a moment's notice?
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Dec 29, 2021 20:31
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LimburgLimbo posted:Though the Ukraine at least has various factions and a level of representative democracy (kinda sorta) and is probably in a way more "salvageable" than North Korea. You could potentially drive out far-right factions in the Ukraine politically without needing to undo the entire structure/govt/society, but I rather doubt it could be done with North Korea and their cult of personality stuff, though I'd love to be proved wrong in the coming decades re: North Korea. i am very curious what you think north koreas problems are and why they have them that you think integrating them into the world community is a more intrinsically difficult task than doing the same for literal nazis
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Dec 29, 2021 20:33
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You might as well be asking why Gazans keep supporting Hamas or how they got so crazy.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:35
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LimburgLimbo posted:ngl it is actually interesting how apt it is in a way. The Ukraine has a bunch of hosed up stuff and a bunch of hosed up ultranationalists and you can probably trace a lot of that back to how they were caught in the middle or the periphery of like every goddamn conflict in 20th century Europe. North Korea has a similar history with getting caught up in cold war bullshit and getting holocausted by US bombing, and both are messed up places now. Though the Ukraine at least has various factions and a level of representative democracy (kinda sorta) and is probably in a way more "salvageable" than North Korea. You could potentially drive out far-right factions in the Ukraine politically without needing to undo the entire structure/govt/society, but I rather doubt it could be done with North Korea and their cult of personality stuff, though I'd love to be proved wrong in the coming decades re: North Korea. Maybe you should find a way to make your point without defending the Nazis. Just saying what do I know. I mean, you understand that defending the Nazis to owns someone, owns you so drat hard right? Like whoever you were trying to own looks good and no one has to take anything you say seriously because you just defended the loving Nazis.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:35
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LimburgLimbo posted:Another example of this is the commander of the aforementioned Ukrainian National Army who was part of the Russian military, then fought for Ukraine against the Russian forces, then worked for the Ukrainian gov't in exile, then was a Colonel in the Polish Army fighting against the Nazis, then was a POW, got released, worked at a movie theater while giving shelter to Polish underground members being hunted by the Gestapo, then went on to become the head of the Ukrainian National Army which was technically under German command. Literally in the space of a year helping the underground against the Nazis and keeping people safe from the Gestapo, to being technically the leader of a large military force, with a core of people from an SS unit, that is under the blanket of the German command (but maybe had a level of independence? not super clear). #NotAllNazis
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Dec 29, 2021 20:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:14th SS Galizien Division is one of those SS volunteer units that certain kind of liberals (particularly Canadian) love to harp on as being one of the good SS divisions. One for whom alleged atrocities have never been proven to be committed. Yeah that's the issue; it extends beyond just the specific unit, or specific SS-affiliation. And the Ukrainian whitewashing of their participation in the pogroms and such is crazy, but then probably a lot of people in Ukraine truly believe those accounts or haven't been meaningfully exposed to the actual narrative of their (/their ancestors) actions. So should they just say well our "country" (how you define that given the instability of a Ukrainian state in that time period is iffy anyway)/ethnicity/people/legacy should just be forgotten and we should give up independence because out legacy is forever tarnished? Certainly people in this thread would say YES, but in reality that's a hard pill to swallow for the people actually there. So they accept this weird state where they want to emphasize their history and story of national struggle, but to do so they have to conveniently "overlook" some terrible poo poo or lionize people who shouldn't be lionized, because their critical points in history are also some of the darkest times in modern history as well. Someone just asked *why* they might be doing the thing in that tweet; this is probably why. One can understand that without saying it's good or not hugely problematic. Pener Kropoopkin posted:You might as well be asking why Gazans keep supporting Hamas or how they got so crazy. Also an apt parallel in a number of ways LimburgLimbo has issued a correction as of 20:44 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 20:42
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axelord posted:I mean, you understand that defending the Nazis to owns someone, owns you so drat hard right? I literally never once set out to own someone here and I don't even get how you can interpret it as that; not everything is ideological combat. Edit: tbf that Peng Shuai post was combative lol. Because the apparent CSPAM consensus take that there could not possibly be any govt influence with censorship and the implicit or explicit threats of reprisal regarding the matters is just *too funny* to not mock. LimburgLimbo has issued a correction as of 20:51 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 20:49
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Dec 29, 2021 20:51
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Nobody needed an explanation on the order of thought for ultranats. Most people who suffer at the hands of foreign occupiers do not immediately turn around and become genocidal psychopaths. Even the ones who were raised to hate communists & Jews. You can't compare the resentment of wounded nationalism to people who are literally kept in a state of endless siege. I mean, you can. It's just stupid.
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Dec 29, 2021 20:51
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LimburgLimbo posted:I literally never once set out to own someone here and I don't even get how you can interpret it as that; not everything is ideological combat. talking about how this particular ss unit never did anything wrong, unideologically, as one does
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Dec 29, 2021 20:52
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there's no "its complicated" nuance about ukrainian fascists, that you felt compelled to defend it in any way says everything about you, just like every other argument you've had here. i cant think of any other thread in this forum where someone would feel confident enough to defend the loving SS and not get zapped on sight instead we have to argue with this reactionary trash for pages on end. man this thread is unreadable
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Dec 29, 2021 20:53
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LimburgLimbo posted:ngl it is actually interesting how apt it is in a way. The Ukraine has a bunch of hosed up stuff and a bunch of hosed up ultranationalists and you can probably trace a lot of that back to how they were caught in the middle or the periphery of like every goddamn conflict in 20th century Europe. North Korea has a similar history with getting caught up in cold war bullshit and getting holocausted by US bombing, and both are messed up places now. Though the Ukraine at least has various factions and a level of representative democracy (kinda sorta) and is probably in a way more "salvageable" than North Korea. You could potentially drive out far-right factions in the Ukraine politically without needing to undo the entire structure/govt/society, but I rather doubt it could be done with North Korea and their cult of personality stuff, though I'd love to be proved wrong in the coming decades re: North Korea. the ideological black and white take of "nazis are bad"
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Dec 29, 2021 20:55
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I never considered that some Nazi collaborators may have been motivated by a genuine fear of the Judeo-bolshevik plot for world domination. Thanks for the perspective, visitor!
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Dec 29, 2021 20:58
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for my next trick, why the baltic ss legions are actually good
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Dec 29, 2021 20:59
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Going back to TT's question, the Ukrainian government has to glorify Nazis & Nazi collaborators because they're engaging in a program of nation-building. They need heroes from the past to glorify their struggle for independence from Russian meddling - but everybody who fought against dominance from Moscow in modern Ukraine was either a Nazi or an Ultranat. All of the other heroic figures in modern Ukraine were anarchists or communists. You can't make national heroes of people who reject nationality as a concept. Especially if they were able to rise to the heights of power in a state that was their alleged oppressor.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:00
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LimburgLimbo posted:Was wondering this myself, and it seems there's actually some interesting lore there, with people claiming specifically that that unit was made up of a bunch of people who largely chose what they saw as the lesser of two evils to fight against the USSR. Very little info available in English for such a niche thing, but for example this book about the unit has the blurb: That's a whole lotta bullshit handwavey nazi justification you've posted there bud. Please gently caress off, your smug liberal "just asking questions" bullshit is tiring.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:03
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but what about the interesting pro-nazi lore????
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Dec 29, 2021 21:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Nobody needed an explanation on the order of thought for ultranats. Most people who suffer at the hands of foreign occupiers do not immediately turn around and become genocidal psychopaths. Specifically genocide, not sure. Is there a place that suffered hugely at the hands of foreign occupiers and didn't do hosed up stuff not long after (or I guess during), arguably as a result? Was almost going to say India under the British but the Partition had a lot of hosed up stuff and ethnic cleansing. Pener Kropoopkin posted:You can't compare the resentment of wounded nationalism to people who are literally kept in a state of endless siege. I mean the Ukraine has been getting passed between powers forever, and is now literally in a continuing low-level armed conflict with Russia. It could be pretty accurately be said to have been essentially in a state of endless siege for longer than North Korea has existed.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:03
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'under the structure of the SS' is such a funny way to say 'an active and proud SS member'
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Dec 29, 2021 21:04
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LimburgLimbo posted:Specifically genocide, not sure. Is there a place that suffered hugely at the hands of foreign occupiers and didn't do hosed up stuff not long after (or I guess during), arguably as a result? Was almost going to say India under the British but the Partition had a lot of hosed up stuff and ethnic cleansing. I bet you have some cool thoughts about the number six million, and the ability to count that high, huh?
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Dec 29, 2021 21:04
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