[Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Grapplejack posted:

At the very least the Balkans would have been a clusterfuck, with Italy trying to maintain their holdings in Albania versus the Soviets

Yeah, and that means Fascism goes from being the very real bogeyman of the 20th century and instead becomes the weird militarist ideology that flamboyant buffoon Mussolini uses as an excuse to muck around in Africa and in the Balkans. A local destabilizing force but not really a continental threat.

I wonder what Stalin thought about Italian Fascism compared to National Socialism.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:30

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# ? May 26, 2024 19:44

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

so is it also The Kazakhstan, The Belarus, The Australia, etc?

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:31

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

The UK and The Commonwealth if it makes you feel any better.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:32

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

The United States....

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:36

BrainDance: May 8, 2007; Disco all night long!

Is Ukraine a bunch of different parts or something?

The Ukraines

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:41

Goast: Jul 23, 2011; by VideoGames

BULBASAUR posted:

so is it also The Kazakhstan, The Belarus, The Australia, etc?

that would be pretty funny tbh

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:42

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Maximo Roboto posted:

Yeah, and that means Fascism goes from being the very real bogeyman of the 20th century and instead becomes the weird militarist ideology that flamboyant buffoon Mussolini uses as an excuse to muck around in Africa and in the Balkans. A local destabilizing force but not really a continental threat.

I wonder what Stalin thought about Italian Fascism compared to National Socialism.

quote:

Some people think that the bourgeoisie adopted �pacifism� and �democracy� not because it was compelled to do so, but voluntarily, of its own free choice, so to speak. And it is assumed that, having defeated the working class in decisive battles (Italy, Germany), the bourgeoisie felt that it was the victor and could now afford to adopt �democracy.� In other words, while the decisive battles were in progress, the bourgeoisie needed a fighting organisation, needed fascism; but now that the proletariat is defeated, the bourgeoisie no longer needs fascism and can afford to use �democracy� instead, as a better method of consolidating its victory. Hence, the conclusion is drawn that, the rule of the bourgeoisie has become consolidated, that the �era of pacifism� will be a prolonged one, and that the revolution in Europe has been pigeonholed.

This assumption is absolutely wrong.

Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie�s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution. The bourgeoisie cannot retain power without such a bloc. It would therefore be a mistake to think that �pacifism� signifies the liquidation of fascism. In the present situation, �pacifism� is the strengthening of fascism with its moderate, Social-Democratic wing pushed into the forefront.

Stalin also likely saw the Nazis as useful if nothing else, hence the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and their mutual division of Poland near the beginning of WWII.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:42

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

The Donetsk Republic.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:43

Goast: Jul 23, 2011; by VideoGames

we call it the philippines because they are an archipelago, right?

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:44

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Goast posted:

we call it the philippines because they are an archipelago, right?

yeah like the maldives or bahamas just named after a dummy

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:45

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

BULBASAUR posted:

so is it also The Kazakhstan, The Belarus, The Australia, etc?

The Congo, The Sudan

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:46

Top City Homo: Oct 15, 2014; Ramrod XTreme

Flavahbeast posted:

The United States....

THEE United States

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:49

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

THEE Ukraine

edit: gently caress!

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:49

Top City Homo: Oct 15, 2014; Ramrod XTreme

gradenko_2000 posted:

THEE Ukraine

edit: gently caress!

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:54

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

Theese Nuts

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:55

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Azathoth posted:

The Congo, The Sudan

The Gambia too

Ukraine was called The Ukraine for a long time probably because of the etymology of the name itself. Украина most likely derives from the word окраина which more or less means outskirts or periphery or borderlands, and was used to refer to Ukraine as a geographical region more than a country. Saying the Ukraine is like a reference to that geographical territory the same way the Congo or the Sudan is a reference to a geographical territory that happens to now also be the name of a country. These days Ukraine and Ukrainians really want to be referred to as a nation rather than a geographical territory, so basically they asked the English-speaking world to start saying Ukraine instead of The Ukraine and everybody was like yeah okay sure

# ? Dec 30, 2021 01:59

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Grapplejack posted:

Stalin also likely saw the Nazis as useful if nothing else, hence the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and their mutual division of Poland near the beginning of WWII.

Archival material more or less has shut down that interpretation.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:03

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Well it's better than everyone calling each other Khokhol and Moskal.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:16

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

Tankbuster posted:

Alright, in unrelated historiography, CSPAM take on SC Bose?

He's such a wild dude.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:16

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

I think the AIFB party he founded is still around too, although I imagine they're very small.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:19

Anime Schoolgirl: Nov 28, 2002

absolute loving unironic :bravo:

for this thread for getting liberallimbo to go mask off and espouse the virtues of literal loving nazis

todays liberals being tomorrow's fascists indeed

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:22

DiscountDildos: Nov 8, 2017

https://twitter.com/wenbecn/status/1476320284084948997?s=20

:lol:

The propaganda war is too drat easy for the west.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:27

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

I somehow missed out on Ukraine having brought Turkish Bayraktar TB2s: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/12/performance-check-tb2s-in-ukraine.html

quote:

Ukraine's acquisition and subsequent use of the Turkish Bayraktar TB2 has been a cause of significant concern for separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and for Russia, which has provided the Donetsk People's Republic (DNR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) with extensive military support. Although separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine operate significant numbers of anti-aircraft (AA) guns and surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems supplied by Russia, including the 9K33 Osa-AKM (NATO designation: SA-8) and the 9K35 Strela-10 (SA-13), these lack the range to target UCAVs like the Bayraktar TB2 flying overhead at some 5000 metres.

Yet one would be mistaken in thinking the separatists' air defences are solely made up of short-range SAM systems, with a number of Russian electronic warfare (EW) systems like the Krasukha-2 and Repellent-1 deployed to Eastern Ukraine meant to fill in the gaps. [1] However, given the lack of success of even Russia's most modern EW systems in combatting the TB2 over Nagorno-Karabakh while in service with the Armenian Army, there is currently little reason to suggest that these would present a grave danger to the operations of the TB2 over any part of Ukraine. [2]

In the case of a future escalation in Eastern Ukraine, Russia could deploy its own SAM systems to the region. In 2014 Russia already deployed Pantsir-S1s, Tor-M1s and Buk-M1s to Eastern Ukraine to provide an air defence umbrella for separatist forces, which were frequently being targeted by Ukrainian Su-24s and Su-25s. [3] Whilst they managed to shoot down several aircraft, more advanced iterations of these same systems proved little able against drones in Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh. The challenge Russia is facing is thus not only that the air defence and EW systems currently deployed in Eastern Ukraine will likely prove incapable of halting operations of the TB2, but also that its more modern systems could have equal difficulty in combatting UCAVs like the TB2.

Russia for its part maintains two public positions that couldn't be more contradictory. On the one hand, the delivery of Bayraktar TB2s to Ukraine has stirred fury in Moscow, which claims that "the deliveries of such armament [i.e. TB2s] to the Ukrainian military may potentially destabilize the situation at the engagement line". [4] On the other hand Moscow has frequently tried to downplay the success of the TB2, arguing that the system can be countered with the air defence systems currently present in separatist-held areas of Eastern Ukraine. [5]

In an interview with Russian state television, the deputy chief of the Anti-Aircraft Missile Troops of the Russian Aerospace Forces Colonel Yuri Muravkin argued that Bayraktar TB2 drones are in fact easy targets for air defence systems, stating that the "Bayraktar [TB2] has such high-speed and mass-dimensional characteristics that it is not difficult to shoot down a drone even for an average-skilled crew", also claiming that Pantsir-S1s deployed in Syria and Libya managed to shoot down more than 40 Bayraktar TB2 and TAI Ankas (visual evidence only supports the loss of 19 TB2s and Ankas over Libya and Syria). [6]

Colonel Yuri Muravkin would go on to state that the Bayraktar TB2 "is a very light target, very tasty for Pantsir". [7] In an effort to explain the visually confirmed destruction of eleven Pantsir-S1s in Syria and Libya, Muravkin explained that the systems in question were not active, or were otherwise unattended by military personnel. [7] This is demonstrably untrue, and statements like these are likely aimed at pleasing a domestic audience. [8] In reality, Russia has to come up with different solutions to effectively counter UCAVs like the TB2s after witnessing their ability to take on most of the air defence systems Russia can muster, including the Pantsir-S1, Tor-M2 and Buk-M2 (although the destruction of the Buk-M2 by TB2s can't yet be visually confirmed). [9]

Russian surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems successfully destroyed by Bayraktar TB2s (37)

1 2K11 Krug ''SA-4'': (1)
17 9K33 Osa ''SA-8'': (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17, destroyed by TB2 and loitering munition)
3 9K35 Strela-10 ''SA-13'': (1) (2) (3)
2 S-300PS ''SA-10'': (1 and 2, destroyed by TB2 and ground-launched guided munition)
1 Tor-M2KM ''SA-15'': (1, destroyed by TB2 and loitering munition)
2 Pantsir-S1 ''SA-22'': (1) (2)
2 2K12 Kub ''SA-6'': (1) (2)
7 Pantsir-S1 ''SA-22'': (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7)
1 Pantsir-S1 ''SA-22'': (1)
1 Pantsir-S1 ''SA-22'': (1)

It's been common for Russia to downplay the success of opposing weapons systems and to inflate the successes of its own military equipment. When the United States, France, and the United Kingdom carried out a series of cruise missile strikes in April 2018 in retaliation for the Douma chemical attack, Russia claimed that Syrian air defences managed to intercept 71 of the 103 missiles fired. [10] Nonetheless, it failed to show the wreckage of even one missile despite obviously having the incentive to do so. [10] The U.S. maintained that all of its missiles had successfully hit their intended targets while acknowledging that Syrian air defences fired 40 missiles at them in vain. [11] Interestingly, most of the missiles were fired after the last cruise missiles had struck their targets. [11]

Arguably even less impressive was the performance of Russian electronic warfare systems (EW) on the side of Armenia during the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War. Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan voiced sharp criticism about an EW system that had just been acquired from Russia � believed to have been the Repellent-1 � stating that "it simply did not work". [12] While such instances might be countered with claims that the systems used were of an older version or that their crews were improperly trained (mirroring other Russian statements to explain losses of its air defence systems in service with other countries), the EW systems used by Armenia are in fact currently the most modern systems on offer by Russia.

Jammer and deception systems known to have been employed against the Bayraktar TB2 without success

R-330P Piramida-I (Used by the Armenian Armed Forces in Nagorno-Karabakh)
Avtobaza-M (Used by the Armenian Armed Forces in Nagorno-Karabakh)
Repellent-1 (Used by the Armenian Armed Forces in Nagorno-Karabakh)
Borisoglebsk-2 (Used by the Armenian Armed Forces in Nagorno-Karabakh)
Groza-S (Used by Wagner PMC in Libya)
Groza-6 (Used by the United Arab Emirates Armed Forces' in Libya)

Both Russia and analysts unaccustomed to the reality of modern conflicts make frequent attempts to downplay the success and potential of the Bayraktar TB2 in the face of even the most modern air defence and EW systems. Yet the threat posed by such systems is very real: operations over Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh have casted serious doubt on the ability of modern air defence systems to counter or even significantly hinder operations of UCAVs. It's not unlikely the same scenario could play out over Eastern Ukraine, and only the massive influx of air defence systems or even fighter aircraft would do much to upset the significant shift in capabilities that is occurring. Hopefully however, cooler heads will prevail and prevent a Russo-Ukrainian War from ever reaching such a point.

The hyperlinks for the various sourced kills work in the article. The tl;dr of the article is that there is, most likely, positive proof of the efficacy of Bayraktar TB2 drones against Russian air defense despite how modern and potent these air defenses systems should be. And by efficacy it's looking likely that the Bayraktar TB2s have a positive kill ratio of 37 AD to 19 TB2 losses. In other words, armed drones can possibly go toe to toe with the best contemporary air defense as of this moment and win.

From another article on the blog, Ukraine is apparently planning on procuring up to 54 TB2s. If hostilities do resume over Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea; it'll most likely be Ukraine believing that it can win decisively with its newly operational drone air force. It'll also be an accurate assessment unless the air defense situation has changed significantly or it turns out there is a limit to the hard carry capabilities of drone air forces.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:44

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

signal jamming is going to be the way to kill drones, AA is never going to be cost effective against them

# ? Dec 30, 2021 02:49

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Raskolnikov38 posted:

signal jamming is going to be the way to kill drones, AA is never going to be cost effective against them

you could theoretically use like, chaff flak to do that if you don't have an electronic way to do that, I guess?

Ardennes posted:

Archival material more or less has shut down that interpretation.

I haven't read much archival material, so i'll believe you on this. :v:

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:01

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, if you read between the lines, most of their confirmed kills were against older Soviet equipment in Karabakh and there is a lot less evidence they were knocking out more modern systems. A lot of it came down to poor coordination and a lack of a integrated defense system in Karabakh which allowed suicide drones to take out AA systems one by one.

It is a medium drone not a stealth bomber.

Grapplejack posted:

I haven't read much archival material, so i'll believe you on this.

The Soviets had been planning to fight the Nazis since the early 1930s and that didn�t stop from 1939-1941. Also, Soviet forces moved into Eastern Poland after the Nazis had attempted to take it and had to retreat because of the pact, eastern Poland itself was relatively worthless except as a buffer for the coming future conflict. It was part of a larger game of chess between both sides.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 03:10 on Dec 30, 2021

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:02

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

LimburgLimbo posted:

Was wondering this myself, and it seems there's actually some interesting lore there, with people claiming specifically that that unit was made up of a bunch of people who largely chose what they saw as the lesser of two evils to fight against the USSR. Very little info available in English for such a niche thing, but for example this book about the unit has the blurb:

Not idea if that book really backs those claims well or not, but it's if nothing else probably illustrative about what a bunch of people in Ukraine probably believe, and that interpretation potentially makes some sense when you consider the background of the Holodomor that you might take up arms with people you probably don't like against the guys that (if nothing else they believed) intentionally starved millions of people in your country to death. Probably there's some leftist takes on the Holodomor and I'm not familiar with whatever debate there might be but ngl I'm gonna err on the side that Stalin did some hosed up stuff.

That unit of the SS btw formed the core of The Ukranian National Army which was meant to centralize all the Ukrainian units that were fighting against the Soviets, but seems to have been only pretty loosely under German control at the time it was formed, a couple months before German se

This guy's story from the same era also gives some interesting illustrative anecdotes:

Dude literally went from a concentration camp to being put under the structure of the SS because the Nazis were that desperate to get more warm bodies to fight the Soviets at the time, and the dude was apparently okay with making that deal to fight back against the Soviets at that time.

So I'm guessing that if that tweet is true (that tweet is literally the only thing I can find in English mentioning this btw so who knows) I'm guessing that it's focused upon people who were known individuals famous for fighting against the Soviets, given the current political climate, and is willing to overlook the connections to the SS while doing that.

That whole era and all the places and peoples between the Stalin-led USSR and Nazi Germany were a loving mess with all the conflicts and splinter groups and people holding their nose and joining either side, or just fighting against all sides, and a fuckload of people who didn't actually like the Nazis (again look at above example of Taras Bulba-Borovets who went from anger at his own people for lynching Poles in some of their endless ethnic bullshit, to Nazi concentration camp, to literally being under the SS shortly after) ultimately fought with them because they saw them as the lesser evil, just as various groups in the middle east and central asia fight with or against various terrorist/freedom fighter groups or the US because they see one or the other the best ally for their intended goals even if they really don't loving like them.

Another example of this is the commander of the aforementioned Ukrainian National Army who was part of the Russian military, then fought for Ukraine against the Russian forces, then worked for the Ukrainian gov't in exile, then was a Colonel in the Polish Army fighting against the Nazis, then was a POW, got released, worked at a movie theater while giving shelter to Polish underground members being hunted by the Gestapo, then went on to become the head of the Ukrainian National Army which was technically under German command. Literally in the space of a year helping the underground against the Nazis and keeping people safe from the Gestapo, to being technically the leader of a large military force, with a core of people from an SS unit, that is under the blanket of the German command (but maybe had a level of independence? not super clear).

So, yeah, in most contexts and in the West in general people are going to shy away from lionizing anyone who touched the Nazis at all, but reality is way more complicated, *especially* in that era and place, and Ukrainian national lore from that era probably makes a lot of compromises there that come off as real uncomfortable from outside perspectives or for people who see the complexities of that era and the conflicts, so make of it what you will I think, but there's more there in general than just going "yo this dude who was in the SS fuckin rocked", and though there's not much info on him I can find personally, he's probably seen as one of these Ukrainian nationalist who threw their lot in with Germany in the hope they could work out something better than what the Soviets gave them back when, et al.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

stupid b*tch

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:16

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Grapplejack posted:

At the very least the Balkans would have been a clusterfuck, with Italy trying to maintain their holdings in Albania versus the Soviets

Italian Irredentism demanded the reclaiming of territory with Italian majorities or pluralities in Yugoslavia. One way or another the fascist government would be seeking war in Europe. It didn't make sense to fascists at the time that Italy should make a compact with Germany, their great national enemy - but realistically they were only ever going to get what they wanted with Nazi help.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:21

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

Well the historiography post 1995 or so also tends to do away with the "Stalin/Hitler bffs 4evr" poo poo. The problem is politically the world has kind of pretended that no Sovietology was ever written after the USSR fell unless it comes from a small handful of glorified pundits with phds.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:23

skipmyseashells: Nov 14, 2020

Can that dork finally get threadbanned for being pro nazi so I don�t have to scroll through pages of argument whenever half the thread decides to reply to him

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:32

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Ardennes posted:

Yeah, if you read between the lines, most of their confirmed kills were against older Soviet equipment in Karabakh and there is a lot less evidence they were knocking out more modern systems. A lot of it came down to poor coordination and a lack of a integrated defense system in Karabakh which allowed suicide drones to take out AA systems one by one.

It is a medium drone not a stealth bomber.

There's still a 12 count of combined Tor and Pantsir AD systems that shouldn't be on that list. That's basically an entire Russian air defense brigade from what cursory TOE research I've done.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:47

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

https://twitter.com/RoxyTall/status/1476184439004696576?s=20

# ? Dec 30, 2021 03:54

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

grandpa tell me again, your stories about the drone wars

# ? Dec 30, 2021 04:06

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

huhwhat posted:

crosspoting

if ur into propaganda films where the pla rides in to save the day, there's also one about the 2008 sichuan quake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FyyGEOP-6A

socialist realism is making a comeback

# ? Dec 30, 2021 04:10

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8dv_IepPWg&t=2067s

# ? Dec 30, 2021 04:16

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

Raskolnikov38 posted:

signal jamming is going to be the way to kill drones, AA is never going to be cost effective against them

counterpoint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhDG_WBIQgc

# ? Dec 30, 2021 04:34

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1476411486981525509?s=20

# ? Dec 30, 2021 05:35

skipmyseashells: Nov 14, 2020

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1476411486981525509?s=20

China helping families turns into China is attacking woman without children

# ? Dec 30, 2021 05:38

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1476411486981525509?s=20

Should women be burdened with half the sky? Prevailing minds in China say yes.

# ? Dec 30, 2021 05:59

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# ? May 26, 2024 19:44

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

from that earthquake movie:

https://files.catbox.moe/u4t1nh.mp4

# ? Dec 30, 2021 06:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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