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Fuschia tude posted:Ethiopian too. Tej I have ordered at Ethiopian restaurants has completed fermentation because they are Christian and don't have to rules-lawyer their alcohol. There is a meadery near where I live that serves the local Ethiopian community. But I wouldn't be surprised to go to a place and get a live tej being made in the back of the house. I just haven't encountered it.
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Dec 29, 2021 19:10
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Vitruvian Manic posted:Tej I have ordered at Ethiopian restaurants has completed fermentation because they are Christian and don't have to rules-lawyer their alcohol. There is a meadery near where I live that serves the local Ethiopian community. Oh, interesting. I remember it being somewhat sweet, but it may have had honey added back in at the end. (Also a large number of Ethiopians are Muslim too, especially in the east, though I don't know if they're more or less represented among the diaspora.)
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Dec 29, 2021 20:26
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Fuschia tude posted:Oh, interesting. I remember it being somewhat sweet, but it may have had honey added back in at the end. (Also a large number of Ethiopians are Muslim too, especially in the east, though I don't know if they're more or less represented among the diaspora.) depends on ethnicity ( like everything else in Ethiopia), Ethiopia has 80 ethnicities and what is called “Ethiopian Food” in the west is Abyssinian/Shewan food. Eastern Ethiopia is inhabited by Somalis, who historically disliked being part of Ethiopia. Somali food is highly different from Ethiopian food PawParole fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 21:28
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I'd imagine Somali food probably has a lot more fish what with not being landlocked and the long maritime tradition.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:42
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FreudianSlippers posted:I'd imagine Somali food probably has a lot more fish what with not being landlocked and the long maritime tradition. Far less fish than you’d think. fish and chicken are viewed as poor people food, and even cow meat is iffy. Most protein are goat and camel. PawParole fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 21:47
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I live practically next door to a somali restaurant now. It's good poo poo. Also as you'd expect, very multicultural. Their best selling item is samosas. Not what I assumed but actually it makes perfect sense. Somalis were probably yoinking indian cuisine before the first british chef ever heard of a curry.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I live practically next door to a somali restaurant now. It's good poo poo. sambusas aren’t samosas, they’re different on everything from the wrapping to the fillings to if they’re eaten with sauces . Samosas are from Central Asia (where theyre called Samsa) originally, not India either lol. they probably entered Somalia and India at around the same time PawParole fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 29, 2021 |
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Dec 29, 2021 21:52
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re: ethanol in general you can run into people today who should know better saying things like "I can't drink rum because I get angry drunk on rum" so when you've only got two or three alcoholic options it's not hard to imagine people thinking wine drunk and beer drunk were totally different when people still do that today
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Dec 30, 2021 06:33
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FFT posted:re: ethanol in general you can run into people today who should know better saying things like "I can't drink rum because I get angry drunk on rum" so when you've only got two or three alcoholic options it's not hard to imagine people thinking wine drunk and beer drunk were totally different when people still do that today That's probablly somewhat related to culturally bound syndromes in yes its not scientifically backed through tests, but you believe it and a whole lot of other folks do too, so well it kinda does things it shouldnt.
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Dec 30, 2021 17:56
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PawParole posted:Far less fish than you’d think. fish and chicken are viewed as poor people food, and even cow meat is iffy. Most protein are goat and camel. If memory serves, there's a taboo against eating fish with many Somali clans. The Wikipedia article on Food and Drink Prohibitions talks about it briefly. "Speak not to me with a mouth that eats fish", Somali nomad taunt. Lol.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:24
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FFT posted:re: ethanol in general you can run into people today who should know better saying things like "I can't drink rum because I get angry drunk on rum" so when you've only got two or three alcoholic options it's not hard to imagine people thinking wine drunk and beer drunk were totally different when people still do that today There's a heck of a lot of different compounds in most alcohols. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK531662/
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Dec 31, 2021 00:32
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Weka posted:There's a heck of a lot of different compounds in most alcohols. Yea that's why they taste different. Ethanol is the psychoactive substance in all of them though, and ethanol is ethanol no matter what other flavourings or admiratives are present around it. Different alcohols can give you worse hangovers from impurity presences, but the psychoactive substance is the same. Much more likely is just social mediation. Ethanol depresses inhibition, but which inhibitions are very much determined by your beliefs and upbringing around alcohol and the environment you consume it in. People react differently to the same amount of alcohol in different environments, because how the inhibition release translates into behaviour is control by your brain, and brains are funky. It is a interesting thought though, when did people recognize beer and wine as the same thing, as opposed to say, booze and weed - being two popular drugs, but not ones people would expect to have the same effects.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:42
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Probably since before the invention of writing. IIRC beer and wine were among the first cuneiform symbols, and keeping track of workers' beer rations was the content of some of the earliest tablets.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:51
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Probably since before the invention of writing. IIRC beer and wine were among the first cuneiform symbols, and keeping track of workers' beer rations was the content of some of the earliest tablets. "Alright, Ur, you get your beer?" "Yep!" "Check. How about you, Uru?" "Yeah, got it." "And check. Got your beer, Ur-ur?" "You know it, boss." "Love to hear it. Check. How about the Uruk brothers, Urham and Urhamsi?" "We got, and we drank it!" "You cads, you! Keep it up! Check."
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Dec 31, 2021 01:03
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Elissimpark posted:If memory serves, there's a taboo against eating fish with many Somali clans. Wikipedia is wrong, there’s no taboo, but it’s not preferred. note that quote is from a joking poetic exchange between someone from a coastal region and someone from inland, it doesn’t represent the views of most people.
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Dec 31, 2021 06:17
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Going wildly off topic but gently caress it, what would you recommend for someone to try who is new to Somali food? There's a huge Somali community in a nearby city and I always mean to go try something, then end up at my old reliable Dongbei restaurant instead. I like and will eat anything.
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Dec 31, 2021 06:20
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PawParole posted:Wikipedia is wrong, there’s no taboo, but it’s not preferred. note that quote is from a joking poetic exchange between someone from a coastal region and someone from inland, it doesn’t represent the views of most people. Huh, I thought I'd read it somewhere else as well. I still like the quote though. Nothing like niche insults.
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Dec 31, 2021 06:25
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Brawnfire posted:"Alright, Ur, you get your beer?" this is now my headcanon for how linguistics was invented
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Dec 31, 2021 07:06
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Probably since before the invention of writing. IIRC beer and wine were among the first cuneiform symbols, and keeping track of workers' beer rations was the content of some of the earliest tablets. I thought I remember hearing/reading somewhere that hops is one of the earliest-domesticated plants, and across time and cultures hops has really only ever had one use, and that was for/with alcohol. I used to semi-facetiously tell my middle school students that one reason civilization was invented was for booze.
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Dec 31, 2021 18:32
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TipTow posted:I thought I remember hearing/reading somewhere that hops is one of the earliest-domesticated plants, and across time and cultures hops has really only ever had one use, and that was for/with alcohol. Its not and probably not. To be less blunt and lovely, hops are domesticated fairly late. And the civilization invented for drinking booze thing just doesn't really hold up all that well. I'd actually argue that a not tiny portion of the popularity of that theory is that archaeology has a serious alcoholism problem. Roman's apparently ate wild hops and used them as stuffing, hops oil was a thing as well. But domestication and heavy use in beer wasn't a thing until like 800 AD. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 21:14
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From a science perspective, "civilization was made for booze" suffers from a very serious problem in timing and source bases. Assuming its a question centered on the fertile crescent settlement complex, that means talking about wheat and barley, aka talking about bread. And the trouble is that if you know how to make bread you know how to make at least hooch if not beer. They're not separable technologies. If you leave that behind and consider other independently arising civilizations...tbh I just don't know? China started as a millet society, no idea how easy it is to make millet beer/wine. In the americas there is y'know stuff like corn beers and such but I also don't know if those are on the same level as wheat where if you know how to cook it you know how to brew it.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:30
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Tulip posted:From a science perspective, "civilization was made for booze" suffers from a very serious problem in timing and source bases. Assuming its a question centered on the fertile crescent settlement complex, that means talking about wheat and barley, aka talking about bread. And the trouble is that if you know how to make bread you know how to make at least hooch if not beer. They're not separable technologies. Theres a poo poo ton of other plants and berries and such in the Americas that can be made into alcohol fairly easily, like pulque, but we don't really see alcoholic beverages being utilized in any sense of scale that would be necessary for someone to make the claim that its a major reason for civilization. Also corn is different from wheat in that there's an additional step of processing needed, nixtamalization, to make sure you don't start getting nutritional deficiencies if you eat it as a staple. Which happened in Europe when they started bringing it over to replace wheat and such but ignored that step.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:50
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Corn was originally domesticated for booze, as well, and only after cultivation did it grow large enough to eat as well.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:03
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Telsa Cola posted:Its not and probably not. I'd love to hear more about this.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:19
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Tulip posted:From a science perspective, "civilization was made for booze" suffers from a very serious problem in timing and source bases. Assuming its a question centered on the fertile crescent settlement complex, that means talking about wheat and barley, aka talking about bread. And the trouble is that if you know how to make bread you know how to make at least hooch if not beer. They're not separable technologies. Millet wine is the traditional drink of classical china.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:21
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Archaeologists, paleontologists, and geologists are the kings of drink mountain. Geologists probably win. I wouldn't go as far as saying there's an alcoholism problem but there is a drinking culture if you dig around in the ground.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:24
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Mr. Nice! posted:Corn was originally domesticated for booze, as well, and only after cultivation did it grow large enough to eat as well. This was a theory that since has been disproved or at very least is now very heavily disputed. I think we covered this earlier in the thread. The argument goes that the sugary stalk juice was used in fermentation and then the kernels developed afterwards. The counter argument is that the physical evidence around shows that kernels were being ground and processed for eating during the supposed period of time when the stalk juice was supposedly the only worthwhile thing. TipTow posted:I'd love to hear more about this. In the effort to help organize my thoughts let me know what you'd like to hear about. Grand Fromage posted:Archaeologists, paleontologists, and geologists are the kings of drink mountain. Geologists probably win. Being in the middle of it it's definitely more than a drinking culture. Survey crews tend to drink more IMO. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 22:50
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Yeah I should qualify that by "among the first cuneiform symbols" I do mean alongside other staples and things. Also this was thousands of years after agriculture and urbanization. But, apparently both beer and bread have been discovered from a few thousand years before grains were domesticated, so  https://news.stanford.edu/2018/09/12/crafting-beer-lead-cereal-cultivation/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X18303468
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Dec 31, 2021 23:01
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^^^ there isn't much reason to domesticate wheat until you know what to do with it, and again if you can bake with wild yeast you can brew. You end up making hooch by accident all the timeTelsa Cola posted:Theres a poo poo ton of other plants and berries and such in the Americas that can be made into alcohol fairly easily, like pulque, but we don't really see alcoholic beverages being utilized in any sense of scale that would be necessary for someone to make the claim that its a major reason for civilization. Yeah nixtamilization is very interesting and its very fun that Americans were just constantly getting beri-beri for centuries after being exposed to nixtamilization. Less cool that it was basically poors and especially black poors. I stopped taking physical anthropology very very early so somebody who knows this stuff feel free to correct me or elaborate, but my understanding is that humans are exceptionally tolerant to ethanol poisoning among mammals, which points to it being a useful distinguisher from, y'know, dogs, but not nearly as useful to distinguish between farming societies and foraging societies. Cuz as you mentioned, yeah you can ferment fruit pretty easily. Just let a mango sit around without breaking the skin. Arglebargle III posted:Millet wine is the traditional drink of classical china. Cool good to know, figured it was but 干酒 doesn't really specify what the source of the wine is.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:09
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Telsa Cola posted:In the effort to help organize my thoughts let me know what you'd like to hear about. It's already been kinda answered, I guess. I had no idea that people who "dig around in the ground" had a notable drinking culture, let alone any ramifications of it.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:10
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TipTow posted:I had no idea that people who "dig around in the ground" had a notable drinking culture, let alone any ramifications of it.  Looks like someone never played Dwarf Fortress.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:14
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I know enough of Dwarf Fortress to know I don't drink enough to play it, that much is true
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Dec 31, 2021 23:17
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It is interesting to ask how much of historical analysis is essentially projection.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:22
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I had heard that alcohol was harder/more expensive to make in the new world, resulting in less alcohol consumption and a lessened tolerance for it at a genetic level but now that I think about it I'm not sure I've ever seen it in a reliable source and it might just be racist garbage for all I know
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Dec 31, 2021 23:25
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What if it turns out that civilization was invented for whippets and everything went awry.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:27
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TipTow posted:It's already been kinda answered, I guess. I had no idea that people who "dig around in the ground" had a notable drinking culture, let alone any ramifications of it. Its more of an extension of professions that spend the majority of their time outdoors in remote places have higher incidence of substance abuse and use because its easily transportable and there's not much going on. Archaeologists, paleontologists, and geologists get grouped together because they do somewhat similar work, but the same could be said for oil pipeline workers and such. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 23:27
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Tulip posted:I stopped taking physical anthropology very very early so somebody who knows this stuff feel free to correct me or elaborate, but my understanding is that humans are exceptionally tolerant to ethanol poisoning among mammals, which points to it being a useful distinguisher from, y'know, dogs, but not nearly as useful to distinguish between farming societies and foraging societies. Cuz as you mentioned, yeah you can ferment fruit pretty easily. Just let a mango sit around without breaking the skin. Ooh, I had to go look this up, and yep, it does seem to be the case, although there is an argument that other mammals (e.g. elephants) may have evolved similar alcohol metabolisms convergently (via slightly different genetic variations). But yeah, even relative to other great apes, we're uniquely suited to getting drunk. Here's a recent paper I found on that: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2020.0070 (Now I'm kinda curious whether neanderthals had the same variants in ADH. Not quite curious enough to go digging up raw neanderthal genome data to find out, but almost.)
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Dec 31, 2021 23:38
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Telsa Cola posted:Its more of an extension of professions that spend the majority of their time outdoors in remote places have higher incidence of substance abuse and use because its easily transportable and there's not much going on. also pretty much all academic fields have high drinking rates afaik (and at least in the US education and drinking are positively correlated in general)
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Jan 1, 2022 02:03
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These really early beers are super different from what we think of now, though. It's funny to think of farming arising because people wanted to get hosed up but fermentation also adds nutritional value if you're making these porridge-like beers and they formed a huge part of people's diets. I suspect brewing and making alcohol is as old as farming and probably made it very attractive, but I think there are a ton of other benefits to fermenting grains than just getting drunk.
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Jan 1, 2022 03:04
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FishFood posted:These really early beers are super different from what we think of now, though. It's funny to think of farming arising because people wanted to get hosed up but fermentation also adds nutritional value if you're making these porridge-like beers and they formed a huge part of people's diets. I suspect brewing and making alcohol is as old as farming and probably made it very attractive, but I think there are a ton of other benefits to fermenting grains than just getting drunk. Getting a mate. Everyone loves a dude who brings a clay pit of 4-loco porridge to the party.
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Jan 1, 2022 03:19
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