|
Interesting bit of history regarding Italian POWs in the US.  German POWs were not involved in making this nearby bridge: 
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2021 22:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:12 |
|
|
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3989132 Come watch digital battleships batter one another to pieces in a winner-take-all tournament of champions!
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2021 23:12
|
|
|
Memento posted:Was the instrument panel that really nice light blue that Soviet aircraft used a lot? Yeah it was. Apparently the idea is your eyes don't have to adjust as much when looking between the instruments and the sky with a blue panel. It wasn't just A Soviet Thing. If you go sleuthing through color pictures of DC-3s, you'll find a few doing the same. Also, the panel liked to fall into the pilot's lap when they fired the fun too. (I looked up the color thing while watching the video a few weeks ago and was just kind of amused to see it come up here)
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 04:16
|
|
|
What are some examples of an invaded force having successfully stopped their opponent by removing all supplies but leaving a hungry populace that the invader is obliged to take care of, overstretching their logistics?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:18
|
|
|
highly specific question and kind of a weird one that doesn't fundamentally make sense. the point of scorched earth is not to cause the invader to care for your populace, it's to deprive the invader of direct sources of food and supply. usually, there is not any sort of cultural affinity between the invading army and the local population, so the invading army, when push comes to shove, is inclined to starve, murder, or attempt to forcibly evict the local population in to their enemy's territory
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:40
|
|
|
Push them over the border and make them a refugee crisis for the opposition, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:47
|
|
|
Maybe some kind of complicated situation where country A invades country B and then does some kind of scorched-earth strategic withdrawal to make country B’s counter-attack have to care for their own citizens? But that’s also just a chevauchée with a complicated end-goal. I don’t know. Not my question. I’m just trying to reframe to see if I could help.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 06:11
|
|
|
Arbite posted:What are some examples of an invaded force having successfully stopped their opponent by removing all supplies but leaving a hungry populace that the invader is obliged to take care of, overstretching their logistics?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 06:16
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Maybe some kind of complicated situation where country A invades country B and then does some kind of scorched-earth strategic withdrawal to make country B’s counter-attack have to care for their own citizens? But that’s also just a chevauchée with a complicated end-goal. it sounds like someone is trying to justify some dumb poo poo they saw in a video game tbh
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 06:20
|
|
|
something like that is going down in the current season of The Expanse, but I think the space UN doesn't have very many parallels in history
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 06:35
|
|
|
Arbite posted:What are some examples of an invaded force having successfully stopped their opponent by removing all supplies but leaving a hungry populace that the invader is obliged to take care of, overstretching their logistics? If an army removes all the supplies and leaves, would the population just... leave with the army? Also, is such a large-scale endeavor possible without the cooperation of the civilian population? Lastly, would the PR of pillaging your own civilians be pretty much a regime-ender? The scenario doesn't quite add up to me at least.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 07:07
|
|
|
lightrook posted:If an army removes all the supplies and leaves, would the population just... leave with the army? Also, is such a large-scale endeavor possible without the cooperation of the civilian population? Lastly, would the PR of pillaging your own civilians be pretty much a regime-ender? The scenario doesn't quite add up to me at least. If you were doing it on your land I think you'd have to not give a poo poo about your population, like, even in theory, which is relatively rare in history-- if only because your army will contain people who do care about them. You would have to somehow force the civilians to remain in order to be a burden on the invader, and you know, I think most civilians aren't going to take that offer, possibly to the point where you either let them flee internally or, well, now you've done an internal massacre; great tactic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 07:43
|
|
|
Arbite posted:What are some examples of an invaded force having successfully stopped their opponent by removing all supplies but leaving a hungry populace that the invader is obliged to take care of, overstretching their logistics? Obligatory Legend of Galactic Heroes. The additional context is that the invaders were self-declared democratic liberators and the situation was laser targeted to hit them right in the "we have a moral duty to help these people" gland.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 07:45
|
|
|
Argas posted:Obligatory Legend of Galactic Heroes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 07:51
|
|
|
Nessus posted:See I was reading the scenario like Country N invades Country N+1, loots and pillages and fucks poo poo up, and pulls back, leaving Country N+1 a bunch of poo poo to deal with in addition to invading their country. In that case, for the side that was looted and pillaged, where's the rush? The enemy has left on their own accord, so the immediate threat is gone, and the attacking country isn't going to grow legs and walk away. At that point, with the enemy off their soil, the "war" is functionally over, isn't it? Is there something I'm missing here?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 08:15
|
|
|
lightrook posted:If an army removes all the supplies and leaves, would the population just... leave with the army? Also, is such a large-scale endeavor possible without the cooperation of the civilian population? Lastly, would the PR of pillaging your own civilians be pretty much a regime-ender? The scenario doesn't quite add up to me at least. Nor to me. The one thing I could think of would be attempting to concentrate both the supplies and the civilian population into defensible locations, which might prove less disastrous politically (assuming you live in a time where the civilian population is listened too mind you). But at least in the premodern context you can at least destroy all the easy supplies and leave the civilians to fend for themselves. They'll have supplies stashed away probably, and it forces your opponent to forage over a wide area, giving you better opportunities to harass them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 08:45
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
lightrook posted:In that case, for the side that was looted and pillaged, where's the rush? The enemy has left on their own accord, so the immediate threat is gone, and the attacking country isn't going to grow legs and walk away. At that point, with the enemy off their soil, the "war" is functionally over, isn't it? Is there something I'm missing here?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 09:12
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Maybe some kind of complicated situation where country A invades country B and then does some kind of scorched-earth strategic withdrawal to make country B’s counter-attack have to care for their own citizens? But that’s also just a chevauchée with a complicated end-goal. I mean this was more or less the British strategy in the Burma Campaign in 42-44. One the one hand it leads to 'Churchill is a monster who left millions of Indians to die in a famine', on the other hand it leads to the Battle of Imphal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 10:42
|
|
|
Argas posted:Obligatory Legend of Galactic Heroes. Yeah, that's where I first saw it and the exact same thing was just on The Expanse. I was just wondering if there was a real world example they might be drawing from.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 13:58
|
|
|
Sounds like it's just inspired by handwringing in the press regarding "we won the war, how come we have to deal with the humanitarian catastrophy??"
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 14:51
|
|
|
Keep in mind that Legend of Galactic Heroes is the anime that presents "Defeat your enemies in detail instead of waiting for them to gang up on your outnumbered rear end" as this incredible, god-tier, unheard of bit of strategic and tactical brilliance that literally causes opposing admirals to flip out and panic. It's a great show but Sun Tzu's Art of War it ain't.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 15:03
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:I mean this was more or less the British strategy in the Burma Campaign in 42-44. One the one hand it leads to 'Churchill is a monster who left millions of Indians to die in a famine', on the other hand it leads to the Battle of Imphal. Do you have any info on this? I know the British blew up the ports, bridges, and oil refineries to stop them from getting into Japanese hands, but I haven't heard anything about destroying food and other infrastructure.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 15:03
|
|
|
Foxtrot_13 posted:Do you have any info on this? In a nutshell, they destroyed or took all the boats and river craft. There was also denial of rice by moving stockpiles away from Bengal, but removing any ability to move seed around or fish while pretty much guaranteed that when the famine hit, it hit bad.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 15:09
|
|
|
More specifically, rice was sized from regions expected to have a surplus, with the intention that those regions would have just enough to support the local population, and not to provide food to the invader. For various reasons, more was taken from more regions than was intended. In addition to reducing stocks below what was supposed to be adequate, the regional trade networks were effectively obliterated. More importantly, all ocean-going shipping was shut down by the Japanese Navy, while the Britixh confiscated or destroyed most river and land transport methods. Even when there was adequate food for tradem it became impossible to actually move it. The net effect was a massive famine that was still killing people at the end of the war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Keep in mind that Legend of Galactic Heroes is the anime that presents "Defeat your enemies in detail instead of waiting for them to gang up on your outnumbered rear end" as this incredible, god-tier, unheard of bit of strategic and tactical brilliance that literally causes opposing admirals to flip out and panic. IIRC that's literally the opening battle in the series and there's plenty of historical precedent of complacent militaries falling for relatively simple ruses. IIRC in Gulf War 1 the "grand strategy" was "feint as though we were going to attack head on and then go around" woah. As for the question something similar happened in the Chinese civil war; when the Chinese Red Army passes through a village they'll take half of the supplies, so when they leave and the nationalists arrive they take what remains; which angers the populace and increases the amount of volunteers for the red army. The Germans also utilized scorched earth in their retreat from Ukraine but I think this is mainly about denying anything useful for the USSR then trying to stoke divisions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
neither of those are really similar to the dumb nonsensical hypothetical that was posed
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 17:39
|
|
|
Arbite posted:Yeah, that's where I first saw it and the exact same thing was just on The Expanse. I was just wondering if there was a real world example they might be drawing from. remember both of those are fantasy series, so not necessarily trying to fully understand actual historical examples so much as echo them
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:14
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Keep in mind that Legend of Galactic Heroes is the anime that presents "Defeat your enemies in detail instead of waiting for them to gang up on your outnumbered rear end" as this incredible, god-tier, unheard of bit of strategic and tactical brilliance that literally causes opposing admirals to flip out and panic. I mean the point that's sort of made later in the show is that there's been a serious brain drain due to various reasons. Everyone who shows promise gets sent to fight the liquid metal space fortress with their brilliant new plan. Everyone that's left gets used to toeing the line.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:remember both of those are fantasy series, so not necessarily trying to fully understand actual historical examples so much as echo them Group A has literally waged an enormous genocide on Group B (Earth) by dropping a bunch of big gently caress-off meteors on it, literally billions are dead or soon going to die. In this specific example, Group B goes to capture Group A's space station, only to find that the Group B military has already abandoned it, leaving nothing behind for the thousands of civilians on it; the idea is they're guerillas at heart and have distributed operations and don't need a central base of operations. So now in addition to the incipient mass famine on Earth, Earth now has to scramble around finding food for the space station or lose political capital because they allowed all those people to starve to death, and the capture of the space station is militarily irrelevant. This is where the Expanse really shits the bed politically, in the show and in the books. Everything up to then, you could buy, it's reasonable, people are dumb. But the authors simultaneously want a mass genocide but one to which everyone reacts as if it's just another battle in a war. IK edit: spoilers Somebody fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
Considering these are ongoing events for the current season maybe we should put it into spoiler tags?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Lol if you haven't read the books
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:55
|
|
Lady Radia posted:remember both of those are fantasy series, so not necessarily trying to fully understand actual historical examples so much as echo them Nonsense. Now fight me with a space axe!
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Considering these are ongoing events for the current season maybe we should put it into spoiler tags? Might also specify what the spoiler concerns, either Expanse or LoGH in this case. Because on the forums spoiler tags are for jokes, not spoilers. I read that spoiler without a second though and just assumed I was reading a LoGH spoiler, a series I'll probably never watch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
Maybe just don't talk about fictional tv shows in the Milhist thread?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
Saukkis posted:Might also specify what the spoiler concerns, either Expanse or LoGH in this case. Because on the forums spoiler tags are for jokes, not spoilers. I read that spoiler without a second though and just assumed I was reading a LoGH spoiler, a series I'll probably never watch. Depends a lot on the sun but in a lot of places spoiler tags certainly are for spoilers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:29
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:More specifically, rice was sized from regions expected to have a surplus, with the intention that those regions would have just enough to support the local population, and not to provide food to the invader. For various reasons, more was taken from more regions than was intended. In addition to reducing stocks below what was supposed to be adequate, the regional trade networks were effectively obliterated. ocean going shipping to india wasn't shut down by the japanese re: scorched earth policies, are there any estimates on how many civilians died in spain or russia during the napoleonic wars for scorched earth policies?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:41
|
|
|
LRADIKAL posted:Thanks for the thread suggestions, but I wanted "this thread" kind of recommendations. We don't have to derail on these games anymore if it's too far off topic. Just want to dive in to recommend the Battle Academy games. You can literally pick up the first one for small change in the Steam sale now, and the sequel is also super cheap. And The Troop, which has just his Early Acess, is basically a modernised version of the two BA games.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:04
|
|
|
Thanks for the additional tip, just bought the first one for a buck fifty. I played Partisans a bit, and it seems like... not as good as xcom but also real time which sometimes stresses me out. Close Combat II is somehow the right kind of frustrating and inscrutable. Now the real puzzle is that it likes to crash after battles (after finally figuring out how to come out without a loss).
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
Lindybeige convinced me how spears are more effective than swords in old timey combat. Why did the post-Marian legion use swords?
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 01:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:12 |
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Lindybeige convinced me how spears are more effective than swords in old timey combat. Why do you believe anything that man says.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 01:14
|
|