|
I don't think we're going to agree on this, Imp. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it your way. At the very least know I'm not disagreeing with you because I think real life billionaires and capitalistic excess are okay.
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:41 |
|
|
Nodosaur posted:I don't think we're going to agree on this, Imp. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it your way. At the very least know I'm not disagreeing with you because I think real life billionaires and capitalistic excess are okay. Fair point! I'll drop it here then. I suspect we're on a similar page, just different paragraphs if that makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
Thanks. I'm just trying to follow a friend's advice to bow out before I take a debate too far. I've done too much of that on this forum...
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:27
|
|
|
Really, the solution to stop shitheads from using the Punisher logo is to just use it ourselves. And a quick search reveals I'm not the first person to think of this. https://www.bonfire.com/store/nguyeningit/  https://www.etsy.com/listing/717595747/punisher-pride-die-cut-vinyl-decal  Can't find an actual source for this one 
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:34
|
|
|
If we can't have characters anymore because some jerk somewhere will appropriate them then TMNT has to go because my neighbour calls himself Leonardo and attacks pizza delivery guys with his sword.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 05:36
|
|
|
I do think it would be interesting to lessen Batman's wealth a bit. If you go back to the earliest issues Bruce Wayne is just a rich guy, but seemingly not a particularly notable one. He drives a normal car and there's no batcave etc. But as soon as you give him multiple vehicles and planes and make the Batcave into essentially a gigantic, cavernous hangar he has to be much richer. Once he's funding the Justice League he has to be among the richest people in the entire world, which then highlights the difference between him and the crime he fights. If he's resourced enough for fighting space aliens it feels odd for him to also be fighting the mob. It would be interesting to have a Batman who is rich enough to be Batman but has less money than Falcone and the other mob bosses of Gotham. I wonder perhaps if this upcoming Batman film will do such a thing, his suit and gadgets look comparitevely homemade, and the Batmobile looks like a modified actual car. There is no DC extended universe so there's no requirement for him to fund a Justice League. It would also add a bit of tension if he's like the 4th or 5th richest person in Gotham,who would conceivably be very threatened by the Penguin who may be the 1st, rather than someone who could buy out all the Penguin's businesses and collapse them on a whim.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 06:37
|
|
|
Karloff posted:I do think it would be interesting to lessen Batman's wealth a bit. If you go back to the earliest issues Bruce Wayne is just a rich guy, but seemingly not a particularly notable one. He drives a normal car and there's no batcave etc. But as soon as you give him multiple vehicles and planes and make the Batcave into essentially a gigantic, cavernous hangar he has to be much richer. Once he's funding the Justice League he has to be among the richest people in the entire world, which then highlights the difference between him and the crime he fights. If he's resourced enough for fighting space aliens it feels odd for him to also be fighting the mob. It would be interesting to have a Batman who is rich enough to be Batman but has less money than Falcone and the other mob bosses of Gotham. I wonder perhaps if this upcoming Batman film will do such a thing, his suit and gadgets look comparitevely homemade, and the Batmobile looks like a modified actual car. There is no DC extended universe so there's no requirement for him to fund a Justice League. It would also add a bit of tension if he's like the 4th or 5th richest person in Gotham,who would conceivably be very threatened by the Penguin who may be the 1st, rather than someone who could buy out all the Penguin's businesses and collapse them on a whim. That's kind of where they've gone recently with him in comics. I mean he's still rich but he's not billionaire rich, he has to live in the city instead of Wayne Manor, he has to use a bunch micro-caves in the sewers to store his poo poo since the Batcave is no longer an option, it's an interesting idea. They haven't explored it as much as I'd like, but it's still a good idea. OnimaruXLR posted:Villains and anti-heroes are popular, and always have been. Normal people have always been able to enjoy the antics of these fictional monsters without a lot of hand wringing. And assholes have always looked up to them. Yeah in the end there's no way to stop bad reads of material unless you just want to say we need to do away with the concept of antiheroes in fiction forever or just have segments in every show/movie like the end of a Very Special Episode of a 90s sitcom where all the actors come on out-of-character and tell you that guns/vigilantism/etc are bad. Robert Pattinson: "I think we've all had a lot of fun tonight, but vigilantism is no joke, and you shouldn't engage in it. If you see a crime, get to a safe location and notify the proper authorities. And if you experience trauma, you should see a therapist in your area, not dress up as a bat!" *chuckle at camera* TwoPair fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Dec 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 07:32
|
|
|
Rev. Bleech_ posted:easy solution: make the Punisher gay No, no, no. Have it follow the comics and have him turned into a black man.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 11:32
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 11:57
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:Why does no one ever suggest making characters bi? I don't wanna give them plausible deniability or any ambivalence whatsoever. I want them to be unable to see that skull on their car without thinking about Frank Castle's Grindr profile and hankey code.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
"Turn a murderous vigilante gay so cops hate him!" doesn't sound like the coolest thing to do, y'know?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
It has my gay okay. I'll allow it. I authorize this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
To maybe shift rails a little, Douglas Wolk posted an article on Polygon talking about the ending for NWH (Spoilers, obviously) and why he feels it's kind of missing the point of Spider-Man: https://www.polygon.com/22858817/spider-man-no-way-home-ending-explained-tom-holland-marvel I don't entirely agree with Wolk's take on Spidey (the chapter of his book All Of The Marvels about Spider-Man posits a reading of the character I don't totally gel with) but I do kinda think he's on to something here with the ending and plot points leading up to it giving the superficial sense of the 'classic' Spider-Man without really thinking through things. Kind of a cargo cult version where the literal facts fit, but the meaning is missed. Basically, if the parental figure passing on the 'great power' lesson dies, not because of Peter's hubris in thinking he doesn't need to help someone because they were a jerk, but because of him actively helping someone with a mental health issue/powers that make them dangerous to others... then that fundamentally alters the meaning of the story. And I do agree that it's a product of wanting a 'fun' Spider-Man who doesn't come with built-in trauma but missing the point that Spider-Man is as much about processing a tragedy and trauma writ larger than life as (and please let's set aside the whole capital vs labour aspect for a moment) Batman is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
The ending calls into question why he became a hero in the first place. I don't care if they change around May and Ben because the real compelling, relatable, and unique thing about Spider-Man's origin is that he wasn't the classic Golden Age or Silver Age do-gooder. He was granted powers and he pursued wealth and fame with them until the burglar incident. Peter paraphrases the Great Responsibility lesson in Civil War and gave us all the impression the Uncle Ben thing had happened even though they were being vague and weird about it, but after all these movies now we have to wonder if he just decided to become a hero from day one because he figured it was the right thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
Lobok posted:"Turn a murderous vigilante gay so cops hate him!" Yeah. The thing is I don't WANT to take Punisher back. Because like sticking a BLM logo on it doesn't really accomplish what I want and feels more like the lies right wring media says about BLM. Because the assholes who idolize Punisher (or the idea of Punisher) aren't entirely wrong about him. Yeah there's nuance and depth they ignore but he's still a dude who has decided to fix things by murdering a poo poo ton of people with a gun. And I guess what makes him unique is that he's a "hero." I'm not a fan of revenge films in general but at least John Wick and Charles Bronson don't have little toys sold next to Spider-Man and do team ups with other heroes. And yeah, heroes have other issues like power fantasies or vigilantism or I guess altruistic billionaires. But its different. And I think the solution is just to accept that Frank Castle is a bad idea that we can only fix so much. That in a society filled with people fantasizing about blowing their undesirables away and a country with endless guns that Castle is just an idea that has aged badly and can't really be salvaged. All you can do is say "no, this is bad. Sorry." And no, that wouldn't change people idolizing him and using the logo and right wing media spending a week complaining about comics being woke. But it would at least stop implicitly endorsing it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
I don't care much for that article because it's founded on the premise that for Spider-man to work, it has to meet the same plot beats line for line with the same motivations. I *wish* more superheroes were like these movies, willing to take on a firmly disparate take on a hero's beginnings.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:I don't care much for that article because it's founded on the premise that for Spider-man to work, it has to meet the same plot beats line for line with the same motivations. I *wish* more superheroes were like these movies, willing to take on a firmly disparate take on a hero's beginnings. I don't think that's the argument, but there's definitely things that define characters like Spider-Man as being unique that if you ditch, you fundamentally alter the character. 2 of those core aspect of Spider-Man, to me, are the conflicting pulls of Peter Parker's desires vs his need to be Spider-Man so no-one else experiences the loss he did and the guilt he carries blaming himself for the hubris that led to that loss, however indirectly. If you remove both of those things, then you may have a cool superhero character, but it ain't the Peter Parker Spider-Man
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
I'm very behind with movies. Managed to watch Black Window and Shang Chi yesterday. Liked them both but I wish Red Guardian had been given more to do and was surprised by the end villain in Shang Chi.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
bessantj posted:I'm very behind with movies. Managed to watch Black Window and Shang Chi yesterday. Liked them both but I wish Red Guardian had been given more to do and was surprised by the end villain in Shang Chi. What about Shang Chi was surprising
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:45
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I don't think that's the argument, but there's definitely things that define characters like Spider-Man as being unique that if you ditch, you fundamentally alter the character. 2 of those core aspect of Spider-Man, to me, are the conflicting pulls of Peter Parker's desires vs his need to be Spider-Man so no-one else experiences the loss he did and the guilt he carries blaming himself for the hubris that led to that loss, however indirectly. If you remove both of those things, then you may have a cool superhero character, but it ain't the Peter Parker Spider-Man You have that, though. Maybe not the hubris and selfishness that his original self showed, but this all happened because he tried to cheat the consequences of playing superhero. He played with the fundamental forces of the universe for college admissions, for Christ’s sake. Even if that’s to help someone, it’s still profoundly irresponsible. Then later on, Peter has to choose between saving a sick man from himself or his own revenge. That’s a selfish desire, and still because of a death he was responsible for. Maybe Spidey’s ORIGIN is about hubris and selfishness leading to tragedy, but the core of his story over the years after that is balancing his desire to be a person with a stable and successful life versus the sacrifices that come from being a superhero. It doesn’t have to match the start to invoke the general whole of the character’s theme over the years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
Speaking of NWH I think a big plot hole popped into my head last night The whole plot is that they mess up the spell, so everyone who knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man starts coming through from the multiverse. The solution is to cast a new spell that makes everyone forget that Peter is Spider-Man sonthat everyone goes home and the reality tears heal. Now the whole thing is built on these multiversal characters knowing his identity, so the only way the new spell is makes sense is for EVERYONE, all characters across the entire multiverse, to forget. So all the Aunt Mays, MJs, Gwens, etc all have to forget that Peter Parker exists, if I'm understanding this right. That seems pretty harsh to the dozens of other Spidey's out there
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
Retro Futurist posted:Speaking of NWH I think a big plot hole popped into my head last night I mean notably Electro never found out Peter was Spider-Man in ASM2. He only finds out in No Way Home. It's the whole reason for the Miles joke.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
I really liked Wolk's book, but I think there's a difference in universe that explains MCU Spider-Man a bit? McGuire Spider-Man is the only superhero in his universe. It kind of makes sense that he would initially be very selfish and then get spurred to good. Holland lives in a world where he would've grown up as a child in a world of Avengers. I dunno, it's kinda like what they ended up doing with MCU Kate. If you grow up idolizing The Avengers and then suddenly get super powers, you're gonna decide to be a hero vigilante. I'm not unbiased or objective I suppose. I think May using her last breaths to tell Peter he still did the right thing and hope is always the right choice was really bold for an action film for me. I don't see enough of that in fiction.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:02
|
|
|
SonicRulez posted:I really liked Wolk's book, but I think there's a difference in universe that explains MCU Spider-Man a bit? McGuire Spider-Man is the only superhero in his universe. It kind of makes sense that he would initially be very selfish and then get spurred to good. Holland lives in a world where he would've grown up as a child in a world of Avengers. I dunno, it's kinda like what they ended up doing with MCU Kate. If you grow up idolizing The Avengers and then suddenly get super powers, you're gonna decide to be a hero vigilante. Not necessarily. The first issue of Spider-Man covers this. Joining a superhero team is cool and all but will it pay Peter and May's bills?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:What about Shang Chi was surprising The ending was a lame sea monster fight and not a cool Bruce Lee showdown maybe
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Retro Futurist posted:Speaking of NWH I think a big plot hole popped into my head last night I don't remember Strange's exact words but to me the first spell covered all Peters by accident because the spell was screwed up and the second time it was done properly and had only the one focus of the MCU Peter.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:22
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:I agree on Red Guardian, David Harbour is great It being the Dweller-in-Darkness (Which I guess makes sense if they're going with the whole multi-verse thing) rather than it be Shang Chi v Wenwu. The whole last battle reminded me of how I'm not really a fan of how Marvel do their big fight scenes. I did like the stuff with Trevor. I'm glad NWH is getting good reviews.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:48
|
|
|
I mean, Shang-Chi did have a pretty big all out fight between Shang-Chi and Wenwu before the stuff with the Dweller and the dragon. Did that all not count?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:52
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:I mean, Shang-Chi did have a pretty big all out fight between Shang-Chi and Wenwu before the stuff with the Dweller and the dragon. Did that all not count? Of course and if it ended there I'd be happier.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
shang chi is just a guy who's fuckin great at beating people up they shoulda left out the ten ring poo poo during the fight
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
I was mostly fine with the Shang-Chi climax but I really wish the Ten Rings had been like, destroyed or something. Don't like that he just has them now and isn't just a martial arts guy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:07
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:I mean notably Electro never found out Peter was Spider-Man in ASM2. He only finds out in No Way Home. It's the whole reason for the Miles joke. He does talk about downloading a bunch of data right as he become energy, and he heard Peter call to Gwen by name, so maybe he pieced it together right at the very end. Maybe he was talking about thinking that Spider-Man was black, not knowing he was Peter Parker. I mean, there's also the possibility he didn't know Peter was white (in his universe) until he took his mask off at the end. Edit: Arist posted:I was mostly fine with the Shang-Chi climax but I really wish the Ten Rings had been like, destroyed or something. Don't like that he just has them now and isn't just a martial arts guy. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Dec 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:11
|
|
|
bessantj posted:Of course and if it ended there I'd be happier. That changes the entire movie. Without the Dweller, Wenwu is just trying to attack Ta Lo for no reason.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:17
|
|
|
damning indictment of writers that they can only write this one specific thing and are in no way able to come up with alternative stories
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:22
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:That changes the entire movie. Without the Dweller, Wenwu is just trying to attack Ta Lo for no reason. The whole plot point is that it’s manipulating him and otherwise he wouldn’t have become so obsessed with getting there
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:24
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:That changes the entire movie. Without the Dweller, Wenwu is just trying to attack Ta Lo for no reason. Or they could just have it that the Dweller is never released because Shang Chi defeats his dad before he can. I dunno I'm not a writer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:38
|
|
|
Have his wife actually be there and then at the end she tells him not to be such a shithead and walks back in to mythological heaven while everyone has a big group hug and learns the power of love
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
site posted:damning indictment of writers that they can only write this one specific thing and are in no way able to come up with alternative stories That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can't just carve out one element of the movie and it'll be the same. If you want a radically different story give us an idea how to get there, don't put the onus on those of us who are just saying what this change would mean for the film. bessantj posted:Or they could just have it that the Dweller is never released because Shang Chi defeats his dad before he can. I dunno I'm not a writer. And then what? Wenwu is defeated? You lose the moment where Shang-Chi refuses to finish his father off with the rings. What happens to the character afterward?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:42
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:And then what? Wenwu is defeated? You lose the moment where Shang-Chi refuses to finish his father off with the rings. What happens to the character afterward? I dunno, like I say I'm not a writer. What I am saying is I wasn't a fan of the Dweller fight. I don't think I have to completely rewrite the film because of that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:41 |
|
|
bessantj posted:I dunno, like I say I'm not a writer. What I am saying is I wasn't a fan of the Dweller fight. I don't think I have to completely rewrite the film because of that. You don't have to like it. But I don't think it's unfair to point out that removing him makes the whole plot fall apart.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2021 22:48
|
|