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Neo Rasa posted:I thought all of them were real AI/programs and that them being "bots" just means they have the extra script/whatever that lets the Analyst dumb them down so he can directly have basic control over a ton at once. I agree that's a much more plausible read than what impatom is trying to reach for. It softens the blow of the film's anti sheeple stance but doesn't really negate it though, disowning your husband and two kids because they are sheeple is still the heroic emotional climax of the movie etc No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Dec 30, 2021 |
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Dec 30, 2021 20:27
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I choose to believe ImpAtom's interpretation because, like the Analyst says, it's about feelings, not facts. heh heh
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Dec 30, 2021 20:32
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No Mods No Masters posted:Yeah, I mean this is basically a neil breen movie. You don't watch his films trying to invent elaborate excuses at every step for how he isn't really murdering anyone. That he's murdering them is kind of the point??? I was 100% thinking of Fateful Findings while watching this, because it’s basically the same plot.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:36
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ImpAtom posted:He isn't the father of two children. He and the children are artificial constructs. They don't have to be plausible because the Matrix reconfigured itself if things get too wrong. They only need the surface level of feeling human and if Trinity feels depressed or unhappy or like something is wrong that is a feature, not a bug. To me it feels like you're trying to invent ever more elaborate headcanon to justify the apparent people not really being people so they can safely be murdered- rarely a good look in film analysis I'm afraid. But even if we were to grant it, it mainly serves to make the film less interesting. Is our goal really to make this film even more self congratulatory?
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Dec 30, 2021 20:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Ha fair enough. I suppose if you continue with all the Buddhist ideas in the matrix films, then rebirth will follow along after the Smith purge of everyone.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:37
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When are we going to get to the
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Dec 30, 2021 20:47
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No Mods No Masters posted:To me it feels like you're trying to invent ever more elaborate headcanon to justify the apparent people not really being people so they can safely be murdered- rarely a good look in film analysis I'm afraid. The whole point of Trinity calling out the Analyst for using children is because he created them. That line and his reaction don’t make sense if they were real.
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Dec 30, 2021 20:57
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The Dave posted:The whole point of Trinity calling out the Analyst for using children is because he created them. That line and his reaction don’t make sense if they were real. I mean, if we're looking at this as a breenian movie we can certainly consider the possibility that trinity is being a huge hypocrite, perhaps because she is herself doing the impatom cope to avoid reckoning with what she did, or I would say because she is a breenian ubermensch who is an ultimate arbiter of reality, responsibility, and justice
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Dec 30, 2021 21:06
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No Mods No Masters posted:To me it feels like you're trying to invent ever more elaborate headcanon to justify the apparent people not really being people so they can safely be murdered- rarely a good look in film analysis I'm afraid. It isn't about being safely murdered. It is about being trapped in an artificial world even more hollow than the original. The Nu Matrix isn't another world. It is a hollow shell of that world dominated by corporations who value profit above all else. The Bots are specifically cheaper and easier, not better. The original Matrix was as much an act of empathy as control. It was a way to keep humanity alive. The original Matrix was a paradise to the point human minds rejected it. Not every AI felt that way but it was the idea. The Nu Matrix isn't. It is specifically is a place of misery for profit. It is cheaper, more cost effective, more interested in being cost effective. They aren't even giving humans a 'real' life anymore. The bots are a tragedy because they can make living beings but it isn't cost effective.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:07
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No Mods No Masters posted:I agree that's a much more plausible read than what impatom is trying to reach for. It softens the blow of the film's anti sheeple stance but doesn't really negate it though, disowning your husband and two kids because they are sheeple is still the heroic emotional climax of the movie etc It also lands pretty rough in the context of Qanon. Granted that they coopted the "pilled" thing, but it's harder in 2021 to cheer on someone getting pilled and subsequently walking away from her family, friends, responsibilities, and reality. Especially given the film's context of fighting the secret shadow government pulling all the strings. Leave all the fake control people behind to join a cabal of free- thinkers. It's ok if some of those people die along the way because they're not real people or they'd agree with us.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
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Dec 30, 2021 21:19
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Trinity hates fake friends and now she hates fake family. Logical progression. But in all seriousness the callousness of the original Matrix was a little bit of grit in that finely-oiled machine. They don't gloss over it - the reality is that when you kill an Agent you're killing some random person. Even Neo's big moment at the end where he "jumps into" Smith and blows him up is murdering a random person. The movie flat out tells you that the dorky tech guy with the gravelly voice is a bot. He seems pretty drat sophisticated to me and even apparently has an off-hours life where he hangs out with minders available in case Neo needs an intervention. It would have helped a lot if they showed that, if a "real" person wasn't interacting with them and couldn't see them, those bots just sort of turned off and stood around or blankly carried out routine tasks in an automated way. Instead it seems like the opposite and Neo's "Modal Simulation" births a real person out of it. At this point we are functionally dealing with p-zombies and that's not an argument that you can resolve.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:20
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moths posted:It also lands pretty rough in the context of Qanon. Granted that they coopted the "pilled" thing, but it's harder in 2021 to cheer on someone getting pilled and subsequently walking away from her family, friends, responsibilities, and reality. See, I think Qanon is a big part of why it works. Trinity isn't walking away from her family. She is walking away from lying hucksters who try to convince her of a different reality because they want to make a profit. She is someone who escapes from Q to return to the person she actually loved and who loved her.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:28
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teagone posted:The whole movie can be read as a cheeky gently caress you tbh, lol. And I think that's great. You do understand these movies are green lit by WB execs, scripts approved by WB execs, and privately screened for WB execs long before the first trailer is released right? This isn’t some “haha these dumb WB people told me to go out and make a 150 million dollar matrix sequel and I’m secretly going to make it a parody of Hollywood” At the end of the day WB has total creative control and they signed off on this and backed Wackowski.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:44
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Noob Saibot posted:You do understand these movies are green lit by WB execs, scripts approved by WB execs, and privately screened for WB execs long before the first trailer is released right? Money from people who don't like WB and the film industry spends just the same as money from people who do.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:48
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ImpAtom posted:See, I think Qanon is a big part of why it works. Trinity isn't walking away from her family. She is walking away from lying hucksters who try to convince her of a different reality because they want to make a profit. She is someone who escapes from Q to return to the person she actually loved and who loved her. This is something I agree with and also something the movie goes to an extra step to make clear when the Analyst starts turning bots into bombs.
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Dec 30, 2021 21:50
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Noob Saibot posted:You do understand these movies are green lit by WB execs, scripts approved by WB execs, and privately screened for WB execs long before the first trailer is released right? No, actually. I'm an idiot and don't understand how anything in the world works.  [edit] Noob Saibot posted:At the end of the day WB has total creative control and they signed off on this and backed Wackowski. Lol. [edit 2] I will say though, despite how much WB sucks, I will give them props for even letting Lana do her thing. I can't imagine a film like this ever being made under Disney with such irreverence on display towards the mouse. teagone fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 30, 2021 |
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Dec 30, 2021 21:59
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ImpAtom posted:See, I think Qanon is a big part of why it works. Trinity isn't walking away from her family. She is walking away from lying hucksters who try to convince her of a different reality because they want to make a profit. She is someone who escapes from Q to return to the person she actually loved and who loved her. That's an extremely charitable read, given that, from her perspective, she's leaving two (or three?) of her own children and the man she remembers marrying. Because a tech guy told her that his videogame is real, and robots control everything. She has a family and responsibilities that are getting in the way of riding motorcycles and kung-fu battles! Good thing that, from her perspective, a delusional pill-head has told her none if that is real or matters. She's always had a feeling that she's very important and privy to secret knowledge, and now that's been confirmed. By the way, the therapist is in on it so never listen to him. Maybe I'm too familiar with q and cult poo poo to ignore the parallels here, but "none of your old life matters, we're fighting the big battle" isn't something that shouldn't be depicted as heroic. Or if it must be, it should be treated extremely loving carefully. If the Analyst hadn't confirmed Neo's story by filling a zone with SWAT guys, it would have been much more interesting.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:23
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There are maybe two people in the world who are potential Qanon recruits who would think "well normally I wouldn't do this, but I'm thinking about Trinity totally running out on her bot husband and kids! and I'm ride or die for Q now!" This is not a thing, the idea of throwing away your normie poo poo for some grand cause is so fungible you could slot it into nearly anything from enlisting to fight the War on Terror in 2003 to Qanon to Russiagate and if the prospective person wants that kind of thematic validation from their media they can find it in 10,000 other places.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:28
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Sometimes people have to leave their families because they realize the relationship isn't working, they realize a queer identity that makes it no longer compatible, they realize the relationship is abusive, they realize they want to be with someone else more and on and on. There isn't inherent goodness in the nuclear family form that Trinity is walking away from.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:31
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There's inherent responsibilities, though. This movie isn't going to be what pushes someone to ditch their family and hunt for pedophiles or get Trump back into office, but that poo poo is absolutely happening for real right now and it's all kinds of gross to see it portrayed as favorably as it is. E: And there are good and valid reasons to leave a situation. "They're not real people anyway and they don't matter" is more troubling than the leaving, especially when the film provides abundant reasons to question this. moths fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 30, 2021 |
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Dec 30, 2021 22:41
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Like, today you shouldn't be making a movie where the cool and correct answer is to shoot up a school.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:44
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In Godzilla (2014), Bryan Cranston's character also basically abandons his family because he has something more important to do.
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Dec 30, 2021 22:46
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It's been a while, but I don't think a weird little club convinced him to do that.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:00
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In America (2021), the president abandoned the country to a plague because he had something more important to do (vacation). If you're making a movie that condemns the system, its going to be interpreted however people feel like, even and including if you try to make it a strident critique one way or the other. The Matrix remains loose on its particulars, unless you're SMG and know for an absolute fact it is reactionary propaganda, and reflects the libertarianism that infects everything in America, even if the Wachowskis' overall body of work tries to be optimistic about people being able to collaborate. It is just mind boggling to me that when things are failing so utterly and publicly that people are handwringing about 'oh no they're not nice enough about therapists or the institution of the family.'
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Dec 30, 2021 23:03
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Nobody is saying that though? "gently caress the so-called mental health, you know what the truth is. Now leave your family to fight robots."
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Dec 30, 2021 23:11
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If they had just voted for Clinton there wouldn't even be a Matrix. #stillwithher
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Dec 30, 2021 23:13
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I don't really have a problem with an outre system condemning film that is openly ambivalent about the value of the lives of sheeple and condones abandoning your children as a vehicle for self actualization. At least there's something to talk about. What's unfortunate is that the movie muddies the water so much to maintain plausible deniability about whether any of that is in play at all. The thing is, neil breen has been able to write, produce, direct, star in, and self fund five theatrical independent feature films. Just saying lana
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Dec 30, 2021 23:14
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moths posted:Like, today you shouldn't be making a movie where the cool and correct answer is to shoot up a school. You could make a movie where the school was a front for the bad guys and run and staffed by robots. You could make a movie where the cool and correct answer is to shoot up a government front for the machines. That movie is the Matrix 1 and it starts in a lobby and those guys weren't robots. But anyway I really do object to the comparison that Trinity's extremely cliche "follow your heart/true love" scene, which takes place in VR with a family that is explicitly shown to be in the thrall of her torturer and placed for control, is somehow equivalent to saying "the Columbine kids/Sandy Hook dipshit was right". That is not really a fair comparison. moths posted:"gently caress the so-called mental health, you know what the truth is. Now leave your family to fight robots." I read this after I posted. The Analyst is not a mental health professional, he is a torturebot who uses the guise of a therapist to mindfuck his victims. This is like saying that the guy who stabs Dr. Giggles is telling people to mistrust the medical industry.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:17
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In the original movie Neo reminisces about a good noodle shop, and asks what those memories mean, to which Trinity replies ‘the matrix cannot tell you who you are.’ My read from that was this virtual life is ultimately meaningless and it was worth the casualties of innocents to break free because otherwise everyone is a casualty. Resurrections complicates that with the bot thing and honestly I don’t think Lana really gave a poo poo. Even the analyst at the end of his explanation says ‘and swarm mode is wicked cool’ or something dismissive.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:22
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Society uses “family” to trap women, the fact people are mad that trinity left her family but not angry her husband tried to kill her is basically how.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:30
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:But anyway I really do object to the comparison that Trinity's extremely cliche "follow your heart/true love" scene, which takes place in VR with a family that is explicitly shown to be in the thrall of her torturer and placed for control, is somehow equivalent to saying "the Columbine kids/Sandy Hook dipshit was right". That is not really a fair comparison. I'm specifically thinking of this case, although I'm almost certainly juxtaposing in a few other "ran off to do Real Important Business" examples. The movie makes, intentional or not, a good case for eschewing traditional reasoning and trusting your heart and feelings in the face of reality. Treatable mental illness has taken more people from me than it should have. And I know that it's really hard to get yourself to where you're willing to accept help. So telling people that the "help" is actually "control" isn't a great look. I don't think Matrix Resurrection is going to make anyone abandon their families, but it's impossible for me to see it as anything but advertisement for vulnerable folks to get worse. I don't know how many people die annually from this, but I know it gets a lot. More than Sandy Hook and Columbine. Cheerleading mental illness should absolutely be up there with glorifying school shootings in terms of irresponsible filmmaking.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:46
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It was irresponsible of Lord of the Rings for Tolkien to have the Hobbits leave their comfortable homes because a wizard told them to go on a quest to fight so called 'dark lords.' Bilbo was suffering attachment to an inanimate object and Gandalf took advantage of that.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:54
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Shiroc posted:In America (2021), the president abandoned the country to a plague because he had something more important to do (vacation). Not sure that example works in your favor tbh
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Dec 30, 2021 23:57
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RBA Starblade posted:Not sure that example works in your favor tbh Mostly just really unhappy in the face of actual systemic and institutional collapse and probably should stop arguing about a movie.
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Dec 30, 2021 23:59
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Just watched Resurrections for a second time with subtitles on and Hobovingian name drops Zuckerberg during his rant.  
AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 00:02
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Shiroc posted:It was irresponsible of Lord of the Rings for Tolkien to have the Hobbits leave their comfortable homes because a wizard told them to go on a quest to fight so called 'dark lords.' Bilbo was suffering attachment to an inanimate object and Gandalf took advantage of that. Going to posit that more vulnerable individuals have families than One Rings.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:02
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moths posted:I'm specifically thinking of this case, although I'm almost certainly juxtaposing in a few other "ran off to do Real Important Business" examples. The problem is that "help" actually is control. Don't get me wrong, it's also genuinely help. But, specifically, it's help getting back to work, such that your exploitation (in game company CEO Thomas Anderson's case, your exploitation of others) can continue in a sustainable fashion. I've beaten this drum before, but I think people who like this movie are wrong to claim that the Analyst represents a bad therapist or a fake therapist or that he's secretly a "capitalist" and not a therapist at all or something like that. On the contrary, I really do think he was giving it his all when it came to integrating Neo healthily and sustainably into what was objectively a pretty great life. Sure, it was an artificially constructed life, but so what? Everything's a construct. But, that still doesn't mean it's the right choice for Neo to go with the flow, even though going with the flow is easier, safer, causes fewer problems for everybody, etc. Sometimes you just don't want to live the life that's been set out for you.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:07
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SUNKOS posted:I forget where I saw this now so take it for what you will but I recall reading yesterday that they planned for the new Morpheus to have a much greater presence in the third act of the film where apparently he was supposed to fight a machine (the person revealing this also added details such as the specific name of the machine and that they had their own language which we would have seen/heard for the first time) but it was cut for budget reasons since it was apparently going to be a very fancy CGI fight. I'm assuming said fight would have taken place in the tower where Neo & Trinity were kept and presumably the fight would have taken place while trying to rescue and free Trinity? It definitely seems likely given that the heist was pulled off so easily and many people have mentioned how little the new Morpheus had to do in the final third of the film. Maybe we'll get some concept art eventually but if it is indeed true I'm surprised that a new Matrix film would have run into budget issues if WB was so determined to bring it back. I Posted that bit from an interesting interview with one of the writers. Click on my ? to find it
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Dec 31, 2021 00:08
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Ferrinus posted:but I think people who like this movie are wrong to claim that the Analyst represents a bad therapist or a fake therapist or that he's secretly a "capitalist" and not a therapist at all or something like that. Doesn't he literally say that his goal is to induce despair because that keeps people compliant? Does that sound like a real therapist to you?
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Dec 31, 2021 00:11
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