|
Can I get some advice on signaling this rail network? or a dead simple tutorial guide. I've done the in game signaling tutorial but things stop making sense when I can't visualize the entire "puzzle" in one screen. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2674962067 E: I have this "working" with just straight signals but I think I'm suppose to have some chain signals in there somewhere... FalloutGod fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Dec 6, 2021 |
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 12:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
Yeah, I mostly use rail blueprints for stations/intersections, and lay down the lines between semi-manually (I like the FARL addon which is a special locomotive that automatically puts down power lines, track and signals as you drive)
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 12:59
|
|
|
FalloutGod posted:Can I get some advice on signaling this rail network? or a dead simple tutorial guide. I've done the in game signaling tutorial but things stop making sense when I can't visualize the entire "puzzle" in one screen. You want chain signals everywhere you enter a shared line piece. More chain signals everywhere you want to enable two way trafic. And normal signals where you leave the shared line for a dedicated line or a terminal. So, for a branch intersection like you seem to have: code:
VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Dec 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 13:34
|
|
|
Signalling 101: - Signals divide the track up into blocks. Rather than thinking about individual signals, it's easier to think about blocks, and just think of signals as things you use when you want to break a block up into smaller blocks. - When deciding what signal to use, look at the block after the signal. If it's okay for a train to stop in that block, waiting for a different train to vacate the block after that, use a regular signal. If it's not okay, and a train stopping in that block would obstruct other trains and grind the whole network to a halt, use a chain signal. As far as advice ... double-track your main line. By only putting signals on one side of each line, you can make it so trains only travel in one direction between the blocks. Make one of your tracks on the main line exclusively for outbound trains, and the other track for inbound trains. Then you can have a continuous stream of trains in both directions, instead of having to wait until the line is clear before sending the next train.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 13:39
|
|
|
I personally hate train grids. Even for angelbobs or other big complicated mods. I always build my trains in layers as the factory expands in one direction. The first and oldest layer is hauling resources generally to somewhere near my bootstrapping base. And then I end up having a secondary layer that's transporting intermediates to dedicated to factories. And after that things are generally dense enough that you don't need trains anymore. So only one side of my base has deadly rail crossings. But I also do all the smart railway gates to prevent inadvertently getting squished.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 13:55
|
|
|
You can't do much to optimize bi-directional rail like you've built there, where there's only one track for both directions. It just can't scale up well. As long as it's operating and the trains don't get permanently stuck, there's nothing WRONG with what you've done. It just can't do much more. People want to make poo poo way more complex than it needs to be : Make your track one-directional loop(s), and either build stations off the main loop or build bypasses around them. Signals always go on the right side of the track relative to the direction the train is going. Chain signal all entrances to intersections - so all of the last points before rails merge, split, or cross. Regular signal all exits from intersections - so as close as possible after the chain signal(s). Occasionally (at least one train length apart, but for early-game rails 5-10 lengths is fine) place regular signals along long rail segments so trains don't have to stop for trains ahead of them. That's all you need to know to create a basic functional rail system. When you hold a signal in your hand, you can see colored lines that how the track is broken up into blocks between signals. Only one train can be in a block. Place regular signals no closer than the length of the longest train you want to use along the path to break it up into segments so that more than one train can use the same stretch of rail without having to wait 15 seconds for the previous train to clear it. Optimally, you would have signals exactly one train length apart everywhere to minimize the chance of one train stopping for another it's traveling behind, but you don't have to place anywhere near that many to dramatically increase the throughput of a train network. To explain in a slightly more mechanical sense, a train will stop at a signal until it's free to go into the next block. A chain signal means that the train will look ahead, and only proceed once it can reserve blocks all the way along its path until it will pass a non-chain signal. There's a lot of other stuff to learn about optimization and avoiding deadlocks, but it generally won't matter for small networks so you don't need to learn that stuff right away. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Dec 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 14:03
|
|
|
I do think that the correct time to switch from simple one track rail to complex blueprints is when you get your mobile bots. Building multitrack without bots is just too annoying, and once you got your bots tileability is more important then anything else.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 14:05
|
|
|
I appreciate the replies on trains. This bit really helped. Chain signal all entrances to intersections - so all of the last points before rails merge, split, or cross. Regular signal all exits from intersections - so as close as possible after the chain signal(s). Thank you folks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
FalloutGod posted:I appreciate the replies on trains. This bit really helped. Tamba posted:When placing a signal, always ask yourself: "Would it be alright, if a train went past this signal and stopped at the next signal, possibly for a long time?"
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
FalloutGod posted:Can I get some advice on signaling this rail network? or a dead simple tutorial guide. I've done the in game signaling tutorial but things stop making sense when I can't visualize the entire "puzzle" in one screen. The basic point of signals is to denote sections where only one train can be at a time. The space between two signals is called a "block", and there can only be one train in a block at any given time. So if there's a train between two signals, signals will turn red as needed to prevent any other trains from entering that block until there's no longer a train there. The single-lane rail going from your pickup area to your dropoff area can only hold one train at a time, in either direction, so it should be treated as a single block: you put a signal on each end of that. It's a two-way track, so you do that on both the left and right sides of the track. The stations aren't part of that one-train zone, since each one can hold a train without blocking that main rail, so you put signals on the entrances to each station to signify that they're a separate block. Once again, this should be on both the left and right sides of the track. Each station can only safely hold one train, though, so you don't need any more signals beyond that. Now, we come to chain signals. The problem with a normal signaling setup is that there are some blocks where a train can safely stop, and there are some blocks where it'll seriously jam up traffic if a train stops there. In your setup's case, the question is "what if a train decides to go to a station, only to stop before it reaches that station because there's already a train there?" Depending on where your signals are placed, it'll either block the exit to the station and prevent the other train from leaving, or it'll grind your entire train system to a halt by blocking the main rail going between the pickups and dropoffs. Chain signals prevent that by looking ahead to the next block to ensure that it's clear. In theory, with something based on your current setup, you'd want to place chain signals pretty much everywhere so that a train doesn't leave its current station until its destination station is clear. In general, what Tamba posted is a good rule of thumb for visualizing it - if it would be a problem for a train to stop at a given signal, then you should make the signal before that one a chain signal. In practice, the exact setup you posted doesn't need any stations at all. Why? Because it's essentially impossible for you to have two trains going to the same station. Since there's no way for trains to pass each other or get out of each other's way, except by going to a station, you're very limited in how many trains can use the network. I'd say probably about three trains (one for each resource) is the limit of what you can reasonably have on that setup, and anything more than that will inevitably deadlock. To improve it, you need to add more rails, not just more signals.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 17:48
|
|
|
I don't think that mantra is really useful for new players because you really don't actually build by it. Most of the places that are really bad for a train to stop for a long time in fact ARE standard signals, since they get littered everywhere on straightaways, and especially for new players it's likely they'll have at least one or two segments where a single train stopping would deadlock the entire system. If someone tries to take your advice literally and make all the main line signals chain signals because you really only want trains stopping for a long time in diverted areas, it's going to dramatically slow down their network and they will probably have a hard time understanding why (especially because chained chain signals can shift the effect so far away from the cause).
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 18:42
|
|
|
It'll be super slow because that's the only way to guarantee it does not deadlock. And the best way to dramatically improve performance would be adding another line to the middle to make at least that huge stretch a one-way rail. The branches can stay two-way as long as there is only one trail per station.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
K8.0 posted:I don't think that mantra is really useful for new players because you really don't actually build by it. Most of the places that are really bad for a train to stop for a long time in fact ARE standard signals, since they get littered everywhere on straightaways, and especially for new players it's likely they'll have at least one or two segments where a single train stopping would deadlock the entire system. If someone tries to take your advice literally and make all the main line signals chain signals because you really only want trains stopping for a long time in diverted areas, it's going to dramatically slow down their network and they will probably have a hard time understanding why (especially because chained chain signals can shift the effect so far away from the cause). Typically, the worst place for trains to stop for a long time are intersections, loops, and station exits. With proper system design, straightaway blockages should be temporary and unlikely to result in a deadlock, and it's easy to add a passing track to circumvent areas with a lot of stops. Meanwhile, a train blocking an intersection has the potential to block far more traffic, and clogging up stations and loops can grind the system to a halt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2021 19:57
|
|
|
Should I stick to just building and not really messing with modules and beacons until I launch a rocket? It feels weird to have this tech unlocked for dozens of hours that I haven't really needed to use. I've thrown some speed modules in the one oil field I've built and efficiency in the mining patches to slow pollution and power needs. I've started using robots and they really change things. I wish the game actually forced you to use some of these techs in some sort of way. I've had to cheat to take some of the frustrating parts out like how little reach you have and how slow you walk. It got me thinking if anyone plays the sandbox mode? I kinda wanna switch over. Having a little man you have to control in a game like this seems odd sometimes. Its fun and then really frustrating. A LOT of this game is fun but then also frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
FalloutGod posted:I've started using robots and they really change things. I wish the game actually forced you to use some of these techs in some sort of way. I've had to cheat to take some of the frustrating parts out like how little reach you have and how slow you walk. It got me thinking if anyone plays the sandbox mode? I kinda wanna switch over. Having a little man you have to control in a game like this seems odd sometimes. Its fun and then really frustrating. A LOT of this game is fun but then also frustrating. Might want to try this mod mentioned a couple pages ago: Krataar posted:Anybody know the name of the "rts" mod. Where you start with a roboport and bots and there's no actual character. Just bots running a base.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 00:13
|
|
|
FalloutGod posted:Should I stick to just building and not really messing with modules and beacons until I launch a rocket? It feels weird to have this tech unlocked for dozens of hours that I haven't really needed to use. I've thrown some speed modules in the one oil field I've built and efficiency in the mining patches to slow pollution and power needs. Yeah beacons are for heavy min-max builds, which you probably do not need or have until after launching the first rocket (or the first few). At that point you can either A) stop playing or B) figure out a new post-launch goal, e.g. 1k spm (science per minute), then design factories with that specific goal. They'll be ridiculously huge, which is where beacons really come in handy in reducing the scale. The one vital exception is the actual launch pad, you need to stuff this with prod 3 modules first, it'll save you literally thousands of ingredients per-launch. Putting them on other expensive things is nice too, like blue circuits or rocket control units, but that makes your fabrication really slow so it's generally not recommended until you're ready to beacon the hell out of things.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 00:27
|
|
|
That being said you should consider making a shitload of level one efficiency modules and just sticking as many of them as you can fit in everything. You can reduce your energy usage by up to 80% practically across the board and dramatically reduce your pollution cloud.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
Factorio is deliberately very self-driven. It would be just another puzzle game if it forced you to use everything and build certain ways etc. Do what interests you. It's not a bad idea on your first playthrough to just target launching a rocket because it gives you a sense of a certain scope to the game, but there's a lot more you can do beyond that, and a lot of it can be done before ever launching a rocket. If the idea of switching around to modules and beacons interests you, do it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 01:20
|
|
|
K8.0 posted:Do what interests you. Playing the game is one thing, the meta-game of jamming mods together in increasingly absurd ways is better.  This screenshot includes using 248k to wash stone to dirty water, to produce lithium, to produce angelbob lithium batteries (I think that item is technically bob not angel), and then disposing of the overflow dirty water by turning it into omnimatter's omnic fluid and then that back into regular water and dumping it into an angel's clarifier. Also there's a yuoki train hanging out out there to round out the set. Elsewhere on the map we have a cargo ships setup to collect angelbob's thermal water from an offshore deposit, which is used to somehow make crystals for use in beacons. Or you can use yuoki beacons which are much easier to get but suck. Almost all of our science production comes from yuoki, but for a while we were doing chemical science via a madclown process instead. There's also a nuclear reactor that uses both bob reactors and 248k reactors connected together. I also have a jet with 13 afterburners that can hit 1700kph but stopping is an interesting concept. Even AAI's automatic pathing thing tends to overshoot despite that theoretically having the math to calculate the correct point to begin braking. Also the game takes like 90 seconds to load but who's counting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 03:05
|
|
|
personally I always use renai transportation when I play factorio nowadays. in theory it allows you to make much better, excessively efficient setups, but in practice, it turns everything it touches into a complete horrible disaster zone. it's perfect
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 06:24
|
|
|
everything in the last two posts is a nightmare and i love it. looking at Renai makes me want to barf and also i immediately want to install it. And it reminds me I need to get around to a krastorio/yuoki play sometime. I just have to get past the burner phase lol, that keeps bumping me off when I try to get back to factorio... I don't think I'm brave enough to try regular bobs, let alone angel bobs, the one time I tried i gave up around... oh, building green circuits i think? What's the appeal of 248? It's hard to grab onto what exactly it adds in an interesting way from the description on the mod page.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
We tried using renai but it caused desyncs almost immediately. Like, when we were in the burner stage and hadn't even built a splitter yet let alone anything from the mod. It seemed to be angry about factory planner but we decided it wasn't worth trying to troubleshoot that. 248 is largely here because it can be but it does add a bunch of post-rocket stuff making it one of the only mods to extend the end of the game instead of the middle. It also has some absurdly fast robots.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2021 13:51
|
|
|
Started playing again and been messing around with a many to many train system with the train limits in game and its pretty nice. Need more of something just throw down a factory with stations for inputs and outputs and the whole train network just covers it. I was trying to do a train depot were all the trains would go for fuel but that only worked when I had 4-5 trains as I got into 20+ trains the train depot became a 20+ train intersection that wildly boggled down the entire system. Now I just train fuel to places to their outputs and they get enough as they reload.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2021 22:43
|
|
|
Tenzarin posted:Started playing again and been messing around with a many to many train system with the train limits in game and its pretty nice. Need more of something just throw down a factory with stations for inputs and outputs and the whole train network just covers it. If you don't mind using mods, Train Supply Manager allows you to set up things pretty much the same way, and the trains only go for fuel when they actually need fuel allowing a very basic fuel depot to work pretty well for a fairly large number of trains. You can also set up multiple fuel depots in different areas and it will select the closest one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2021 21:21
|
|
|
I ran a world with 200 trains with a single TSM fuel depot, it never backed up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
I forgot just how upset the bugs get in rampant AI. Luckily, krastorio makes combat slightly more exciting when you get to watch tracers gleaming in the darkness as you mow down hordes of bugs from your base.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2021 18:55
|
|
|
Question that may have no good answer: are there any good mods out there that add a little bit new to the game without being a complete overhaul or complexity overload? It's been a couple years since I played and I've got way too many hours in it, kinda got the itch but feel like I want a new coat of paint. Some new enemy behavior or an extension to the tech tree to make some bigger weapons, anything that adds a little spice once I finish the stock tech tree. Something that makes clearing out massive biter installations faster in the late game would be nice too.. infinite tech on artillery eventually fills that role but it gets super tedious eventually. Scrolling through the mods list it seems like the most obvious selection is the Rampant mods.. are they balanced okay? I'm not looking for nightmare mode, just want a little more zazz. Is Alien Loot Economy any good?
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 05:26
|
|
|
xzzy posted:Question that may have no good answer: are there any good mods out there that add a little bit new to the game without being a complete overhaul or complexity overload? You can definitely find mods that fit that description. Krastorio 2 gets recommended a lot as it adds some new stuff to the core game and mixes up the production and tech without feeling like a totally different game (I.E angelbobs or py). Rampant absolutely just adds more stuff to the biter side of things but I never get far in games I play with biters on so I'm not a great authority on that subject! Space Exploration is basically an expansion pack that adds a crazy new game after you launch your first rocket but it adds a lot more complexity at that point so it's probably not what you're looking for. Alien Loot Economy is cool but also way overpowered. It's fun as a nice reward for actually killing biters but it has modules that get stronger as you kill more biters and they get way too good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 06:01
|
|
|
The Locator posted:If you don't mind using mods, Train Supply Manager allows you to set up things pretty much the same way, and the trains only go for fuel when they actually need fuel allowing a very basic fuel depot to work pretty well for a fairly large number of trains. You can also set up multiple fuel depots in different areas and it will select the closest one. I was kinda trying to keep it vanilla cause that's really the way I like it but I know of the train mods for a many-to-many train network, I just wanted to keep it vanilla. I solved the fueling problem by just having a train come with fuel to all the stations. I'm still somewhat playing the same map off and on, expanding the base. It's grown even bigger now and I've replaced older parts with solar fields.  I had to start converting new train stations into a roll on roll off design so at one point I can swap to single direction trains. This is prob gonna take a long rear end time to fix if I can ever find more time or strive to play more.  Pretty much at the point I need to expand again and double my copper and iron plate production by double to increase the other things building fast. And all of those things will prob take a ton of hours to even figure out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 06:28
|
|
|
xzzy posted:Question that may have no good answer: are there any good mods out there that add a little bit new to the game without being a complete overhaul or complexity overload? Random Recipes is a good way to mix up the vanilla game without adding anything new to learn, gives you a break from the same old designs and lets you get creative. At its most basic configuration it just changes the ratios of ingredients in crafting recipes, but you can crank it way up and get randomized belt speeds, weapon/ammo stats, power consumption/production values, etc. Doesn't add anything to the endgame but makes getting there a bit more exciting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 07:39
|
|
|
Krastorio is probably the most vanilla+ feeling megamod. SE I wouldn't recommend as it's just extremely frustrating and clunky to deal with the space science side of things. Angelbobs is for people who are off their OCD meds and need to automate yet another 7 ingredient item for their 42 ingredient production chain.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Drone_Fragger posted:Krastorio is probably the most vanilla+ feeling megamod. SE I wouldn't recommend as it's just extremely frustrating and clunky to deal with the space science side of things. Angelbobs is for people who are off their OCD meds and need to automate yet another 7 ingredient item for their 42 ingredient production chain. Yeah Krastorio is great and slides right into vanilla, I never once had to look anything up on how to do anything that was added in the mod.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
Counter opinion: Krastorio II’s science system sucks rear end, and is really annoying to set up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:Counter opinion: Krastorio II’s science system sucks rear end, and is really annoying to set up. What.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:Counter opinion: Krastorio II’s science system sucks rear end, and is really annoying to set up. have you not played any other mod? if k2's science is frustrating to you, don't ever try and build yellow belts in any of the others
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
xzzy posted:Question that may have no good answer: are there any good mods out there that add a little bit new to the game without being a complete overhaul or complexity overload? K2 is probably most of what you're looking for, but also it's worth noting that even in the base game they've added stuff that makes for insane late-game base clearing. So regardless of what mods you use, there are some fun new military toys (and buffs) to look forward to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 21:36
|
|
|
little munchkin posted:have you not played any other mod? if k2's science is frustrating to you, don't ever try and build yellow belts in any of the others I’ve gotten a lot further in Bobs/Angels than Krastorio, because I hate the stupid science cards. It’s not that it’s complex, it just annoys me. I dunno. I know I’m in the minority, but I’ve never really clicked with Krastorio, and K2 just made it worse. I’d rather 
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2021 21:40
|
|
|
I'm trying out the Bob's series of mods, and holy poo poo, did he make things to be complex and convoluted for the sake of being complex and convoluted? Making yellow belts now for example is a giant pain in the rear end. (FWIW, I am doing the no hand crafting challenge, where everything needs to be made by a factory. I've only crafted 105 items by hand at the start, and that was all i needed to get my first factory built)
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
Cimber posted:I'm trying out the Bob's series of mods, and holy poo poo, did he make things to be complex and convoluted for the sake of being complex and convoluted? I hope you unbound the buttons for hand crafting so you solve the muscle memory problem. That one isn't that bad if you rush bots and they handle everything for you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2022 20:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
Tenzarin posted:I hope you unbound the buttons for hand crafting so you solve the muscle memory problem. That one isn't that bad if you rush bots and they handle everything for you. I just don't keep mats in my inventory, only finished goods. I need to rush up to bots, but its a long annoying slog to get up there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2022 20:48
|
|