(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
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Sephyr posted:Half in the Bag: Matrix 4 is out yea it's not as good as 1 but it's not near as bad as 'a 4th Matrix movie ages after the 3rd came out' could be and actually manages to maintain the theme and style well at least.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:10
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Grondoth posted:Why do people pay attention to this clearly insane person who is "troubled" by someone talking about the canon of elves in a dark fantasy setting? people enjoy listening to people who validate their belief that their media consumption is important
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Dec 31, 2021 22:15
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endocriminologist posted:It’s so strange how trans women become “they” whenever ppl disagree w then so first off if you ever have questions about Sophie's pronouns she literally is the one who started the trend of putting someone's name and pronouns onscreen when they first show up in a video essay so you can just pull up their most recent video and all your wildest dreams will come true! (more people should do this honestly? I can only think of one (thoughtslime) that picked it up) second I suspect that twitch.tv/theymersophie is still ok with a they and a them on occasion. there's hints outside of the first 30 seconds of their video, I suspect. third off: yeah I love it when this thread gets furious over a take someone made in a video they haven't watched its actually cool and good and isn't a knee jerk reaction to someone saying you could possibly be racist
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Dec 31, 2021 22:20
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Grondoth posted:That was in August of 2020, how did that make any splash at all? How is it possible that the same people who can't stop talking about how Western Civilization is crumbling and fascism is here and unstoppable are also the ones getting up in arms over someone's critique of a popular series of Polish fantasy novels? I know it's the posting is praxis crowd but holy poo poo I can not imagine myself getting upset in AUGUST of LAST YEAR about someone's take on ELVES This was around when the Witcher show on Netflix was first coming out (or already came out). I’m pretty sure both Joseph Anderson and Sophie started their respective video series about Witcher-related media in general to capitalize on this. Also, although we’re talking about it a bunch here, I feel the need to re-emphasize: Sophie had called out Joseph Anderson, sure, but it was only one relatively small section of her video, which was itself the third video out of four. Point is: I don’t think she saw Joseph’s video and was like “I’m SO ANGRY about this, I need to destroy this motherfucker”. He was just one example in her video (that she, maybe, went a little too far in castigating, but whatever). Pretty sure she criticized some other people’s analysis of the games/books as well, not just him.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:24
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i dont need to watch a 4 hour video and its companion to know this poo poo is stupid
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Dec 31, 2021 22:24
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racist against who, though? Like, genuinely what group does she think elves are coded as because she seems to be trying to make an 'elves are natives' thing but that's...wrong...just objectively incorrect reading the basic text...and spends half the time saying poo poo like 'he just calls them all elves' as if...elves themselves are being discriminated against?
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Dec 31, 2021 22:24
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Everything I know about the Witcher I learned against my will
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Dec 31, 2021 22:25
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Dias posted:I thought Sophie still went by she/they pronouns, also go gently caress yourself. I'm not going to go around keeping detailed excel files on everyone's pronouns but I was listening to some of the Call of Cthulu podcast Sophie and friends made, and yes "they/she" are listed on that for them. sexpig by night posted:also the elves who came 'at the eleventh hour' aren't even the main do-ers of genocide in Witcher, it's the 'native' ones (who are about as 'native' as any other mortal race) that are murdering rando farmers and kids! loving read the books if you're going to be this lovely and reactionary about them! Sophie read the books, or claimed to, I'll take their word they did. I haven't so I don't know the whole story on the inter-dimensional invasion timeline. My understanding is the elves on Witcher-land allege they were here before the Conjunction of the Spheres, then that happened and all the humans and dwarves and monsters showed up, then the humans at some point started genociding them. It's been a while since I watched Sophie's video on them, but their point as I recall it was that the Witcher stories take on a very strong stance about how neutrality/centrism/everyone is bad is a terrible stance that lets the greater evil win every time. And as the stories progress, Geralt develops into someone who can't sit by and let bad things happen to people. The first elves, whether they were natives or happened to be settlers who arrived first and genocided whatever was there before that and forgot, were indeed being persecuted and were a vulnerable minority, unlike the recent space invader elves, who themselves would probably also genocide the other elf people anyway. They weren't perfect victims and did a lot of bad things, too. Sophie's point was that it felt like Joseph was ignoring the differences between the two elf groups, and a kind of broader concern about how his followers absorb his interpretation of things since they're mostly not going to go read the books themselves for their own point of reference.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:25
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Anglophone media criticism refuses to accept not everything is an analogy. You know who made a good video about that? Ellis. Oh, also I wanted to see her talk poo poo about Tick Tick Boom now that I watched it. Meh.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:27
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but the argument that elf nuance has a meaningful connection to the material real world is insane. right.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:27
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The only yearly review that matters is this year's "Todd & Aaron's GAME AWARDS 2021" https://youtu.be/ZAgnBwcOKGw I can't believe this has been going since 2008
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Dec 31, 2021 22:27
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RareAcumen posted:Ishmari from Dragon Quest 8 is one of the few chill elves. You meet him in a pocket dimension, he comes with you to be a magical therapist for a king and then later on makes a desert remember when it was an ocean so you can float a ship out of it and use it for the rest of the adventure. I feel like anime/JRPG elves in general tend to be decent more often in general. To my understanding a lot of pop fantasy stuff tends to further derivate from stuff like dragon quest or lodoss war rather than tolkien directly, which would explain elves and dwarves leaning more towards just being types of guys than being as tightly bound to the usual tropes
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Dec 31, 2021 22:28
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You know you’d think RLM would like at least one divisive film.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:28
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Noldor are the worst
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Dec 31, 2021 22:29
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anyway the funniest western elves are by the eragon guy who made them actually 100% perfect and correct about everything, immortal and overwhelmingly powerful, to the point that the protagonist overcame a major difficulty by them just randomly making him a half-elf with no explanation. his entire romantic subplot also amounts to going "tfw no elf gf" to the point of melting down at one
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Dec 31, 2021 22:33
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Andrast posted:Noldor are the worst Tears unnumbered they shed and dwelled in pain. Motto posted:anyway the funniest western elves are by the eragon guy who made them actually 100% perfect and correct about everything, immortal and overwhelmingly powerful, to the point that the protagonist overcame a major difficulty by them just randomly making him a half-elf with no explanation. his entire romantic subplot also amounts to going "tfw no elf gf" to the point of melting down at one And made the elves vegan and therefore morally superior.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:33
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CelticPredator posted:You know you’d think RLM would like at least one divisive film. they should learn to love movies and not hate them
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Dec 31, 2021 22:35
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'm not going to go around keeping detailed excel files on everyone's pronouns but I was listening to some of the Call of Cthulu podcast Sophie and friends made, and yes "they/she" are listed on that for them. Right and that's all accurate but the point is that those new elves aren't actually major antagonists through the books, Joseph saying 'man these elves suck' is likely mostly from those 'native' elves. Every non-human is a vulnerable minority, that's a major part of the setting, but the elves keep an extremely insular culture based around active racial superiority. Their racial history is wrong, that's a major factor too, they do indeed allege they were here first, but they weren't, the native race to Witcher World is a hosed up fishy/squid race, the elves came over from another world just like others, and actually were a bit behind some others like Dwarves and the fae, whom they very quickly started killing. It's not that 'everyone is bad' it's that history is messy and ugly and the idea of heroic history is always born from conflict where those 'heroes' had to slaughter 'villains'. The entire point of the new elves coming and, yea you're 100% right that they view the 'original' elves as just as inferior, killing everyone is that this is exactly what THEIR ancestors did, but they refuse to acknowledge the glaring issue and instead cling to their supremacy.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:37
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:they should learn to love movies and not hate them They like Suburban Sasquatch
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Dec 31, 2021 22:37
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fun hater posted:but the argument that elf nuance has a meaningful connection to the material real world is insane. right. I wouldn't go and do that myself, because there's already way too many boneheaded attempts at Elf Racism=IRL Racism/Homophobia/antisemitism/other bigotry and mega doubt at this point anyone could make a point that lands there. The Witcher's setting is probably is going for a racism/antisemitism thing. They certainly are leaning hard into that in the Netflix show anyway, which will be the main entry point going forward. I also don't like the idea of bringing all that in to upbraid another youtuber was great. Then again, I assumed they must have smoothed something out behind the scenes because Sophie still cites and praises Joseph's videos, like most recently in their Resident Evil analysis stuff. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 22:37
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if she really wanted to get hot takey she should find someone complaining about the Dwarves, they're a WAY more cohesive metaphor for Jewish migrants in how they're treated than elves are for any group, and as one of the more original migrants over they have a bit more claim to 'yea but we had dibs on this world' than the snooty rear end elves putting farmers on spikes.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:39
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the best elves imo are the bosmer but bethesda forgot they're tree dwelling cannibal changelings
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Dec 31, 2021 22:40
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fun hater posted:the best elves imo are the bosmer but bethesda forgot they're tree dwelling cannibal changelings hell yea, big fucks to ESO for making Bosmer into boring generic tree hippy elves with only a few tiny fluff items like the fermented meat drink and all. They eat people! They have to, it's their core religious belief, give me my cannibal fae elves back Bethesda!!!!
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Dec 31, 2021 22:41
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its common for fantasy writers to attach real world cultures to fantasy races which can be uncomfortable but im not sure how much the Witcher does it beyond the elves and dwarves and gnomes being minorities in a lovely world that treats everyone like poo poo if they arent of noble blood
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Dec 31, 2021 22:42
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Motto posted:I feel like anime/JRPG elves in general tend to be decent more often in general. To my understanding a lot of pop fantasy stuff tends to further derivate from stuff like dragon quest or lodoss war rather than tolkien directly, which would explain elves and dwarves leaning more towards just being types of guys than being as tightly bound to the usual tropes Oh definitely, but I'm just bad at remembering examples and I know I've seen at least 5 games where the problem could've been solved much easier if the superhuman walking boulder catapult race had joined in and helped four razed villages and a castle siege ago.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:42
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Andrast posted:Noldor are the worst loving Feanor and his sons.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:44
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:its common for fantasy writers to attach real world cultures to fantasy races which can be uncomfortable but im not sure how much the Witcher does it beyond the elves and dwarves and gnomes being minorities in a lovely world that treats everyone like poo poo if they arent of noble blood yea Witcher stuff is a lot more...soupy in metaphor. The non-humans aren't really specific races/cultures/etc (though I do stand by Dwarves being the most cohesive example of a cultural inspiration) so much as they're a general storytelling device to show that a random dirt farmer human is more likely to be a bigot against the Dwarf who makes his tools than he is to hate the baron who raises his taxes, because that Dwarf is right near him and a more obvious 'other' even though they have far more in common than he does with the baron. it's a solidarity analogue
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Dec 31, 2021 22:45
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Arc Hammer posted:Tears unnumbered they shed and dwelled in pain. Your homeless souls shall come to me.... ...but some may have to sleep on the couch. And hey! The Nolder are alright. Feanor was the first sigma male!
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Dec 31, 2021 22:47
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I haven't played the Witcher games yet (plan to do so in 2022), so I don't really follow a lot of this.RareAcumen posted:Oh definitely, but I'm just bad at remembering examples and I know I've seen at least 5 games where the problem could've been solved much easier if the superhuman walking boulder catapult race had joined in and helped four razed villages and a castle siege ago. Sure, they're good when it comes artillery, but according to most experts they're not as strong in other areas. Hopefully they get a rework in Total War Warhammer III.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:53
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It's tangentially related but RedScotGaming's 2 part Killzone retrospective has an excellent section where he discusses the Tolkien quote about allegory versus applicability. If an author wants to write their story as a direct allegory for a real world analog that's their prerogative. But if a writer wants to write their own story that the reader can then apply to their own real world knowledge, that can often be a far more powerful tool because it allows readers from any number of backgrounds to draw comparisons and helps us understand our own world better as we see the same stories we read reflected in the reality we experience. RedScotGaming's argument was that the Helghast in Killzone are not a direct allegory for the Nazi regime, but instead are a case example in how economic, environmental and political situations can exacerbate the spread of fascist ideology regardless of who is the one pushing the buttons. Similarly, I don't think Sapkowski wrote the marginalized races of The Witcher with direct analogs to real world minorities, buy rather invoked a feeling that readers could pick up on and relate to their own views. And this extends to the politics and into the games as well. The elves in Witcher can and do stand for marginalized groups, but also exist to make about about cyclical violence and how the "native dwellers" argument is bullshit when it is thrown about by developed nations to justify pogroms.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:53
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sexpig by night posted:yea Witcher stuff is a lot more...soupy in metaphor. The non-humans aren't really specific races/cultures/etc (though I do stand by Dwarves being the most cohesive example of a cultural inspiration) so much as they're a general storytelling device to show that a random dirt farmer human is more likely to be a bigot against the Dwarf who makes his tools than he is to hate the baron who raises his taxes, because that Dwarf is right near him and a more obvious 'other' even though they have far more in common than he does with the baron. No, you see, the Witcher isn’t about your politics, it’s about my politics Anyways I quite like elves from Discworld, they did the whole “interdimensional invaders” bit pretty drat well
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Dec 31, 2021 22:57
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All this talk of elves. There's too much lore about these days, it's dividing us. I demand that there be only 7 lores.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:02
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thetoughestbean posted:No, you see, the Witcher isn’t about your politics, it’s about my politics Good fiction is a mirror, not a portrait, so yeah, kinda.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:03
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Nuns with Guns posted:Thank you for replying to my joke post with facts I've known regarding a hobby I tragically sold my soul to at the tender age of 11 (this is a joke about the D&D satanic panic.) But if you're going to "well-actually" me about this, the Cyberpunk TTRPG is itself a conglomeration of tropes, concepts, and future speculation that was pooled from comic, film, and literary sources of the grim near-future coming out in the 80s, with addendums in future editions as more came out through the 90s and to today. It certainly came first in compiling them all together into a... kind of cohesive singular gaming world, but you can't credit it with being the original predictor either. Pondsmiths excellent TTRPG (which I've played and DM'd way too much, too) came out in the late 1980s and is very clearly inspired by a lot of the books that came before it in the literary genre. I can't speak to any moral panics, as there haven't really been any of those in Denmark for a very long time. My username and avatar is itself a reference to cyberpunk, because SAN is System Access Node and a term for storage servers used in UNIX environments which I used to manage, while blank means someone without a Serial Identification Number and is a reference to the outline of Beastie (the BSD UNIX daemon), and a daemon is both a thing in UNIX but also a different class of software in cyberpunk. I'm totally not obsessed!
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Dec 31, 2021 23:04
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Shnakepup posted:Ehhhh. I think he didn't do himself any favors, certainly, with how he reacted to the whole thing. I think Joe mainly was feeling "everyone's calling me a racist but I'm not!" and going overboard in responding to everyone. Just that attitude of "if I explain my thoughts/position enough then eventually they'll all agree with me, so the fact that people still DON'T agree with me means that I need to keep going, and I can't rest until I've convinced everyone". I'm sympathetic to Joe because we are for the most part incorrectly educated to sort people into being racist or not, so "I don't think Sapkowski has constructed a situation where the only solution is to ethnically cleanse a troublesome minority" becomes an accusation of racism instead of just misreading or not knowing (and a nine hour pair of videos is going to have some mistakes) fun hater posted:but the argument that elf nuance has a meaningful connection to the material real world is insane. right. The Witcher didn't make The Golden One a neo-Nazi (and he's pretty willfully blind to interpret the text as promoting ethnic cleansing/genocide), but that's a pretty clear connection between the book and the real world. And I'm pretty sure someone writing just a couple years and a couple hundred kilometers from the Yugoslav Wars, who uses terms with a lot of real-world baggage like pogrom and quadroon (instead of more neutral fantasy equivalents) was somewhat influenced by real-world events. Consuming or liking a work isn't a political act and not every story is an allegory, but that doesn't mean that works of fiction are artifacts that exists outside time and space.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:18
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sexpig by night posted:hell yea, big fucks to ESO for making Bosmer into boring generic tree hippy elves with only a few tiny fluff items like the fermented meat drink and all.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:18
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If you're a leftist Thoughtslime is doing an ur-eyeball zone talking about a bunch of other creators' videos that you might be interested in, even if you're not a mildred-head! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TfIKZ-DM9k also apparently Non-Compete did the same thing 2 months ago so that's also an option but I haven't watched that because I haven't followed them yet (even though they're p good from what I've seen) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycpu8l9kOiE
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Dec 31, 2021 23:35
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Microcline posted:I'm sympathetic to Joe because we are for the most part incorrectly educated to sort people into being racist or not, so "I don't think Sapkowski has constructed a situation where the only solution is to ethnically cleanse a troublesome minority" becomes an accusation of racism instead of just misreading or not knowing (and a nine hour pair of videos is going to have some mistakes) i didnt understand any of this until the last sentence but i agree with you. my comment was more in reference to this specific incident but it reads much more broad bc of my bad phrasing lol.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:38
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Sephyr posted:Half in the Bag: Matrix 4 is out Then the movie will be right up your alley. Most of the referenced backstory comes from the first movie. If you only vaguely remember the second and third movies, you'll be ok.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:44
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Oh dang I guess they did like it per other people. I don’t watch stuff making GBS threads on things I like because I don’t find value in that.
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Dec 31, 2021 23:49
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