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Just found Mahjong Soul, almost Adept to reach Silver tables, but I got a few questions. Ethics: 1) If i'm currently in 1st place, is it disrespectful to just keep getting cheap wins to try and end the game asap? 2) If i'm in 3rd place, and the person at 4th will be knocked out with a Ron, is it fine to refuse to Ron against him to try and hit the other 2 instead? And some questions about Pon strategies: 1) Would you Pon a dragon or prevailing wind if you're going for a half-flush? I probably wouldn't in this case. 2) Would you Pon a dora dragon / non-guest wind? I probably would because I have a Yaku from it, and it's worth at least 4 Han if i win, and if I already have 4 Han i just want to exit quickly? And finally, one Riichi question: How many outs would you need minimum before you Riichi? I keep hesitating between yes/no with 2 pairs trying to make triples (2 outs), but I don't hesitate with sequences with 3 outs or 2 outs but lots of them left with the pool (like say, 6 tiles left of 2 types.
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Oct 24, 2021 15:03
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Ethics 1: Yeah that is what you want to do when ahead, that and betaori if needed Ethics 2: You can, just out course make sure you aren't in Riichi so you don't end up in furiten Pon 1: It would depend on the circumstances. But usually since you are trading a closed hand for a yaku, it would depend primarily on how much I want to complete the hand and how close to the end we are. Pon 2: Yes, probably, though it would depend on the totals. eg: If it is south 4 and I'm just barely behind first I might not want to have a more obvious hand, but then i probably wouldn't be going half flush in the first place. Riichi: It depends on the state of the game. You riichi more aggressively if you are behind, and more conservatively if you are ahead.
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Oct 24, 2021 15:27
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As far as general ethics goes, you are expected to make plays with the intent to either improve or secure your own placement. In a league or tournament, for example, it would be considered disrespectful or in some cases actionable for you to confirm your own 4th place with the intent to deny somebody else better placement. In the second case, it's less about whether it's ethical and more if it's foolish or not. There's no last place penalty in bronze room so you should always be playing for either 1st or 2nd, but in silver and higher depending on the situation it might be better to confirm 3rd rather than risk 4th place overtaking you. With no other information I would pon yakuhai in most situations, regardless of whether or not it's dora. Situations where I might reconsider are if I have no other yaku, if my hand is still far away from developing and it's late in the game, or if another player is already tenpai. The general digital wisdom is that you should always riichi with 4+ outs if you have at least one other yaku. Below that, it depends on the situation. In bronze room I'll probably always riichi.
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Oct 24, 2021 17:06
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Etiquette? Ha! I highly encourage all players to make a smug face before calling Ron.
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Oct 24, 2021 20:27
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Etiquette basically doesn't exist in online mahjong. Fourth place avoidance is the name of the game and anything that can be used to achieve that is fair game. In real life mahjong, things are a bit different. If it's oorasu and you're in 4th place without any chance of finishing in the top 2, it's considered good manners to lay low and let the top players brawl it out between themselves.
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Oct 24, 2021 20:52
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Also, in IRL mahjong, it’s considered rude to repeatedly take a long time on your turn.
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Oct 24, 2021 21:52
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Thanks for all the answers everyone! I tried over the last few games to just Pon every Dragon / self-wind I had, and what I realized was that I was scoring more rounds, but the scores were of less quality. Thus, I hardly get 1st or 4th anymore, with more 2nds and 3rds. I'm actually not sure what's better for climbing. Is it variance or stability?
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Oct 26, 2021 16:08
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The scoring is forgiving enough in Bronze/Silver that you'll make progress as long as your 1st place rate is at least as good as your 4th place rate, but at higher ranks it's more important to stay out of 4th.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:44
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Eeepies posted:
Anything that's not riichi only (ie you have han other than riichi) you riichi regardless of how bad the wait is (unless it's dead wait). There are some exceptions that you can learn as you go along. Probably the most relevant one is if you have a guaranteed haneman+ but for now just hit that button unless it's bad wait riichi only, non-dealer.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:04
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Event is out now. Yami mahjong is fun, but washizu mahjong fries my brain.
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Oct 28, 2021 11:39
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I'm so excited to try these modes haha
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Oct 28, 2021 14:47
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BoldFace posted:Event is out now. Yami mahjong is fun, but washizu mahjong fries my brain. Washizu 'jong is interesting but man is 5+20 seconds tight with so much information to take in.
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Oct 29, 2021 00:28
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I gave 3 people Ron in an East game in the transparent tiles game mode. I actually scored lower than the disconnected person, oops. It's just too much information for my brain to handle and when I'm on Tenpai I just stop paying attention to other people's hands even though I should be doing it.
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Oct 29, 2021 08:20
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Battle of Darkness is sooooo fun. It’s crazy how much people will put in the pot. You can turn a riichi-nomi hand into 10k points! Protip: It’s almost never worth it to lock a tile for 4K, unless you’re like, really sure it’s what someone needs for a Baiman. Washizu Mahjong is also pretty fun. The trick here is to just never riichi, unless you’re really really sure your wait is unreadable. If you don’t riichi, people won’t focus so much on you. Conversely, save your brain power for fools that riichi. But, then again, often their hand is riichi-nomi bc they were so desperate to make an opaque wait, they settled for trash. Fun stuff! FAT BATMAN fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Oct 29, 2021 |
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Oct 29, 2021 08:29
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FAT BATMAN posted:Washizu Mahjong is also pretty fun. The trick here is to just never riichi, unless you’re really really sure your wait is unreadable. If you don’t riichi, people won’t focus so much on you. Conversely, save your brain power for fools that riichi. But, then again, often their hand is riichi-nomi bc they were so desperate to make an opaque wait, they settled for trash. Fun stuff!
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Oct 29, 2021 12:36
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In Yami Mahjong, if you have the lead for the last round, abuse it. When you think someone is on tenpai just hide every tile, if you believe that it's their winning tile lock it, drain people of resources until they can't even play the game anymore. It's so much fun.
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Oct 29, 2021 13:15
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Any other tips for Yami Mahjong? It feels pretty clear how to play Washizu Mahjong, but Yami I feel like I have no idea.
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Oct 30, 2021 23:00
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Yami Mahjong is mostly about playing the odds with EV calculations. Pubs will do conceal and reveal calls with wild abandon so it's really difficult to apply EV analysis there. This is based on my analysis from the handful of games I played with goons yesterday. If a player is riichi or showing high value tenpai, would you throw a certain unsafe discard in normal gameplay? - If no, you probably shouldn't discard it in the first place, and you shouldn't dark discard it either. - If yes, because you're pushing, is the potential hand value worth the cost of a -1000 dark discard? (maybe) A -5000 full dark discard? (probably never) Keep in mind you might need to do this for multiple turns, so the cost of doing basic dark discards can add up. - If yes, because you're out of safe tiles when folding, it might be worth doing a basic dark discard just to bait a -2000 reveal out of the tenpai player. If you're in riichi / tenpai, keep in mind you need to cough up 2000 points per dark discard per player. You should riichi with the assumption that you need to tsumo your winning tile, so bad wait riichi is even worse in yami mahjong than during normal gameplay. If you think you have an exceptional wait, you can bait pubs into giving you 4000 free points from a full darkness discard. I think there might also be value in using dark discards in neutral situations to disguise information about your hand, but I haven't played enough to consider what the use cases are. So far I've only been doing it to conceal dora honor tiles. Here's a decent primer about washizu mahjong that builds on the basic concepts from Riichi Book 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk7iQ2nnIRo dragon enthusiast fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 00:02
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dragon enthusiast posted:Yami Mahjong is mostly about playing the odds with EV calculations. ...
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Oct 31, 2021 01:56
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I might as well continue documenting my progress up the Mahjong Soul Ranked Ladder, if not for the community's interest, but for my own satisfaction and reflection. I've just reached Adept III, and I think the last round of feedback has done a lot to get me there. Last time, I was one game away from ranking down to Adept I, and I eventually did rank down about a week later. But I quickly got back to Adept II in ten games, which I think is actually a net point game over staying in Adept II from where I started. Then, it took me twenty-six further games to get to Adept III. (Average rank for the period was an excellent 2.27.) Things go slow when you only play one or two games per day. So what's actually changed, stat wise? If you compare my current statistics to last time, my win rate has held stable at about 21.1%. Still a bit low, but the quality of those hands I have been winning has been massive, with an average point value of about 7200. (As an aside, it's a little annoying to have to estimate this by weighting between recording points, rather than having a "last 30 days" or "last X games" stat readout option.) The feedback I received here has caused me to become somewhat focused on achieving a 3-ish han sweet spot in the hands that I build. That drive is also causing me to call less frequently in order to preserve value. I might be taking that a bit too far, however. My estimated call rate during the past 44 games has been an incredibly stony 21.6%, and my riichi rate has been a slightly high 20.8%. I've very clumsily missed opportunities to confirm hands or clear out inside- or side-wait blocks due to my reticence to push a call button. I think I need to put some additional attention into when the speed of calling is worth the lower safety of having a smaller active hand size, when the hand value isn't at a 3-han par. At least another side effect of my bias towards playing fully closed is that I've been dealing in less frequently. Playing closed most of the time means that my hand development is generally slow, which in turn gives me good excuses to bail when someone else declares riichi or makes a couple of open calls. I'm still basically completely pushing until I need to start folding, so sometimes I end up with poor options. But the effective deal-in rate in my recent play has been around 13.6%, which I've been cool with. In some ways, I feel like I've been lucky as well as exploiting the play style of Silver Room players. Somehow, I feel like it's all going to fall apart when (if) I move up to Gold. But there's only one way to find out if that's true, isn't there. Postscript: One of my last two games, I was behind and didn't get anything going, but in the final hand of the match, I was able to steal away 2nd by not declaring riichi, with that being the difference after draw payments. That felt real smart, even if a lot of it was luck. (As riichi mahjong often is.) EDIT: Of course, first game as an Adept III is one of those matches where I deal in four times, and I'm too far behind to get out of 4th in South 4, even though I did stumble into a chinitsu (full flush) hand. (It was open and tsumo, so only mangan.) So riichi mahjong goes. MrBlarney fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 20:35
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Perhaps a quick tile efficiency tip, since I saw this same situation happen couple times in the game you posted. Almost always when you have a 689 shape in your hand (or symmetrically 124), the correct move is to discard the 9. With 689, you're basically just waiting for a 7 and if you happen to get it, the 9 becomes useless as you already have a complete 678 sequence. 
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Nov 1, 2021 11:07
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for a similar reason, when you have a choice of terminals to discard, always choose a 1-4 or 6-9 shape. The terminals in those are almost completely useless in terms of tile acceptance (isolated 4 can still accept 2 to create a wait).
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Nov 1, 2021 14:39
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Yeah, I usually do discard down to 68 or 24 from a 689 or 124 combination, and that screenshot feels like a clear place to do that. I wonder if I had some flavor of outside hand (chanta, junchan) on the brain or something, despite having a pair in the 66p and not enough terminal group roots. That actually is a gap that's present in my current play style, where I'm biased a bit towards (what I perceive as) value over efficiency more than is probably warranted. Actually, this points towards jotting hands down on scrap paper as I play and reviewing immediately afterwards, since there's no time to reflect on decisions during a match.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:56
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yeah the value/difficulty of chanta is notoriously bad, it's usually a yaku you're forced into, not one you go for. Junchan (especially with sanshokou) is actually less bad despite being more difficult though you still tend to go for it when you're in a defensive position, eg leading in the late rounds
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Nov 1, 2021 20:45
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Note also that 68 is better than 89 because you can turn it into an open wait with a 5.
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Nov 1, 2021 21:02
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My friend had this game and neither of us can figure out why this is furiten
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Dec 29, 2021 21:23
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inferis posted:My friend had this game and neither of us can figure out why this is furiten They have a 2-sou in the discard, making the wait invalid to call on. If they were to self-draw the 5 sou they could still go out, but they can't call it. Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2021 21:39
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inferis posted:My friend had this game and neither of us can figure out why this is furiten There is a 2s (two of bamboos) in the discards. The tiles that can complete this hand are 2s and 5s. If ANY of your winning tiles are in your discards, you are in furiten and cannot win by ron. In this case, you either have to win by self-draw or make discards that change the tiles you are waiting for to get rid of the furiten.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:45
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I keep telling myself that one of these days I'll grok furiten
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Dec 29, 2021 21:48
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I too used to think furiten was just “you can’t Ron off a tile you discarded” but furiten is actually when you’ve discarded a tile that would have otherwise completed your hand. It sounds weird but it’s fundamental for defensive play. Also, it should be noted, because this hand is open with a triplet of 1 man, the only valid yaku is sanshoku. Only drawing the 5 sou will let you win. If the hand was closed, then drawing to the 2 or 5 would do, since it would have the Closed Tsumo yaku if nothing else.
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Dec 29, 2021 21:56
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My favorite part about r/mahjong is that 90% of the questions are "why can't I win" and the answer is always either "you don't have a yaku" or "you're in furiten even though you didn't discard that tile specifically".
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Dec 29, 2021 22:35
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Is there a rule book for riichi mahjong I could read somewhere? I keep learning nuances to rules that I had learned a simplified version of.
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Dec 29, 2021 22:48
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https://riichi.wiki/Main_Page is a comprehensive wiki covering Riichi Mahjong.
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Dec 29, 2021 23:21
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it bears repeating, since it's such a common misconception, that furiten is a hand state and not a tile state. your entire hand is furiten because of a certain tile discard. I think the other common obscure rule is swap calling, which is that after a call, you can't discard a tile that would have completed the set you just completed. there's a bunch more weird rules that differ based on digital client and rules enforcement agency. This page tries to be comprehensive but mostly exists as a curio for corner cases https://ooyamaneko.net/en/mahjong/rratw/index.php
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Dec 29, 2021 23:39
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dragon enthusiast posted:there's a bunch more weird rules that differ based on digital client and rules enforcement agency. This page tries to be comprehensive but mostly exists as a curio for corner cases Also, looks like Tenhou is the only site that lets you turn on wareme.
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Dec 29, 2021 23:54
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the battle of darkness event is loving nuts, this is my score after one round. My hand was only 1 han lmao
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Dec 31, 2021 06:49
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It gives me poker vibes with inexperienced players basically going all-in against each other with their point sticks
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Dec 31, 2021 19:08
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I made Expert on Mahjong Soul! I'm also in danger of deranking because i just can't keep up with the play, I deal in like 1-2 times per game now compared to adebt and it feels like my sense of danger is much weaker now.
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Jan 2, 2022 13:49
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Expert is the point where you need to start actively defending against certain hands (especially riichi), because the majority of players there understand scoring and know how to build valuable hands. This post gives statistics on how many points riichi hands score based on visible dora.
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Jan 3, 2022 00:06
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:59 |
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Can Of Worms posted:Expert is the point where you need to start actively defending against certain hands (especially riichi), because the majority of players there understand scoring and know how to build valuable hands. This post gives statistics on how many points riichi hands score based on visible dora. Thank you so much, I thought I defended quite well previously but your statement made it very clear that it was not enough. I'm now realizing that even a single play-in can mean I lose 8k/12k to a Mangan / Haneman, and once I lose that much it's really hard to recover the points when being behind makes it more likely I have to play more aggresive and lose even more. I'll have to try and remedy my gameplay and see the results.
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Jan 3, 2022 09:13
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