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we can all strive to do better on terminals but the last thing i will add on the topic is that recently i had to run new feeders to a main panel only to find that one of the lugs was cross threaded so for the past 33 years...one of the feeders had just been sitting in the terminal with friction. quickly turned into a scramble to find a new main breaker or hunker down for a panel swap. that lug wasn't even in bad shape at the point of "contact" so that homeowner is incredibly lucky, conventional wisdom says that should have been a problem within months or weeks of usage
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Jan 3, 2022 03:38
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Edit: nm unnecessary
Rufio fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 3, 2022 |
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Jan 3, 2022 03:47
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Is there a downside to a CAFI/GFCI breaker, besides the cost and availability? I need to add a circuit to the garage and I've got the breaker, just wondering if there's a reason to not use it. When the panels in the house were replaced we got combo breakers in every circuit, except the one that powers our 60 year old boiler. The electrician explained why but I didn't quite grok it at the time.
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Jan 3, 2022 05:44
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The idea is that you wouldn't want a nuisance trip on your primary heating system and have your building freeze up.
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Jan 3, 2022 06:05
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Some of the switches in my house are getting worn out so I figured I'd replace them myself and it would be pretty straightforward. The first switch I tackled was a double switch in the bathroom that controls the fan and the light, but right away the wiring confused the hell out of me. There are two romex cables (sheaths? bundles?) coming in to the box, each with a white wire, black white, and bare copper wire. That sounds great, but the actual wiring was: one black wire to the line terminal two white wires to the first load terminal one black wire to the second load terminal both copper wires to the ground terminal I used a Klein NCVT and verified that only the black wire going to the line terminal was hot, and I knew it worked in this configuration, so I just did the same thing with the new double switch but this time used some push in connectors so there was only one wire on each terminal, and everything works fine. However - WTF? The fan and the light can both come on independently of each other and I have no idea why two white wires were going to the first load terminal, but I figured I shouldn't change it if it was working. I did at least put electrical tape around the hot black to mark it and blue painter's tape around the neutral black, hopefully anyone in the future looking at it figures out the blue means "wtf but not ground nor line." Next up was a switch for an overhead light that wouldn't work if you flip it all the way up (feels very old and worn out), but does turn on if you leave it around halfway up. It's a single switch and not a 3way so I figured it'd be a lot easier, but I opened it up to see this:  It's hard to read but it's a Leviton 6B42 dimmer. I tried googling it but there's very little information about it apart from a few threads. I couldn't cut the breaker to it because I think it's on the same circuit as my router and my wife was working, but does anyone know anything about it? It looked like a lot of wires back there for 2 switches but I didn't really get a good look at it, maybe once I can cut the power I'll pull it out and it will a simple three wire installation. I also have no idea how it's supposed to dim, as best I can tell you actually are supposed to just move the switch partway up / down?
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Jan 4, 2022 01:44
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I bought my house back in April and the previous owner put recessed lighting in the master bedroom. Two of the four sockets have gone dead since we moved in, and since I don't know anything really about home electrics I'm just going to call someone in to look at them. However, is there anything else I can do to better understand the issue/not give away that I don't know anything when I do call someone? All I did to test them out was to swap in different bulbs that I knew were working.
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Jan 4, 2022 02:02
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C-Euro posted:I bought my house back in April and the previous owner put recessed lighting in the master bedroom. Two of the four sockets have gone dead since we moved in, and since I don't know anything really about home electrics I'm just going to call someone in to look at them. However, is there anything else I can do to better understand the issue/not give away that I don't know anything when I do call someone? All I did to test them out was to swap in different bulbs that I knew were working. A really simple issue that happens a lot is that the "tab" at the bottom of the socket gets bent in (because people screw the bulb in too far/crank it down). Make sure the light is off, use a non-contact voltage tester to confirm, and you can get a dental pick or some 90 degree pick up there and bend it back out just a little bit to make sure it can make contact with your new bulb. It might be just that simple. MomJeans420 posted:I have no idea why two white wires were going to the first load terminal 50/60s house? Those are switch loops. The color of the wire doesn't matter. What it's being used for does.
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Jan 4, 2022 02:13
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C-Euro posted:I bought my house back in April and the previous owner put recessed lighting in the master bedroom. Two of the four sockets have gone dead since we moved in, and since I don't know anything really about home electrics I'm just going to call someone in to look at them. However, is there anything else I can do to better understand the issue/not give away that I don't know anything when I do call someone? All I did to test them out was to swap in different bulbs that I knew were working. in addition to what mo said, some recessed cans have little thermal fuses that can blow, especially with incandescents MomJeans420 posted:two cables, one hot wire between them definitely sounds like switch looping, power was run to the devices first and those wires are just interrupting the hot connection on each boy do i hate these! it sure is a dimmer that works by adjusting the toggle. if it's not a three way there should only be two connections, which might be like your bathroom and use white wires as part of a switch loop
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Jan 4, 2022 03:26
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Motronic posted:A really simple issue that happens a lot is that the "tab" at the bottom of the socket gets bent in (because people screw the bulb in too far/crank it down). Make sure the light is off, use a non-contact voltage tester to confirm, and you can get a dental pick or some 90 degree pick up there and bend it back out just a little bit to make sure it can make contact with your new bulb. It might be just that simple. Should have clarified that it's one of these bulbs, not your usual screw-in ones-   I guess I should still test the socket first before assuming that wires need to be hosed with? My wife was in the room when it happened and says that the light was on one moment and then out the next. Yes I made sure the bulb worked in one of the other sockets in the room (it did). C-Euro fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 05:27
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C-Euro posted:Should have clarified that it's one of these bulbs, not your usual screw-in ones- Ugh....that a CF G24q2? base. It's a dead end of bulbs. Those fixtures only existed for a small amount of time. Maybe someone else will have a better idea, but I'd swap that out with a standard incandescent can (that I would but a high quality LED bulb in) or a nice LED fixture depending on what you want/can find.
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Jan 4, 2022 05:46
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Motronic posted:Ugh....that a CF G24q2? base. It's a dead end of bulbs. Those fixtures only existed for a small amount of time. I too had an uncommon fixture / bulb setup that looked sort of similar, or at least had a similar connector. It was a Circline. I got rid of that as soon as I could TBH.
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Jan 4, 2022 06:07
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C-Euro posted:Should have clarified that it's one of these bulbs, not your usual screw-in ones- I hate these bulbs so much. I've accidentally broken so many of them just taking them in and out of their sockets. I've only ever run into them in commercial buildings though. Pretty wild to see them in a house and pretty drat rude of the PO or contractor. Bad news is they operate from a ballast so that's probably the issue. You can change it but it's gonna be a pain in the rear end to hunt one down and change it out every time. I would go ahead and change those fixtures out because they are junk.
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Jan 4, 2022 09:44
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Dumb question: Is there any problem using a mud ring like this exposed? My plan would be to just put the outlet in and put a standard plastic cover plate over it. This is existing conduit and boxes from the previous PO, but the outlets that used to be there were wired up with speaker wire (or at least that's the best guess the electrician and I came up with) so I'm not sure if it's ok to use mud rings like this, or if I should just take off the mud ring and use a square box cover. Or I guess these covers are an option with the mud ring, I didn't realize those exist because they're not stocked at the store I normally go to.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:08
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Mud ring is fine, plastic cover plate is not. Plastic plates are for finished walls only, because nothing is likely to get caught on the plate that could break it. You need a metal plate out there.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:19
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Motronic posted:50/60s house? Those are switch loops. The color of the wire doesn't matter. What it's being used for does. 1939 but who knows when the wiring was added. I just thought the two neutrals going to the same terminal was weird but apparently switch loop was the answer. Extant Artiodactyl posted:boy do i hate these! it sure is a dimmer that works by adjusting the toggle. if it's not a three way there should only be two connections, which might be like your bathroom and use white wires as part of a switch loop I've never once in my life come across a dimmer that worked that way, weird. At least it sounds like it will be easy to replace.
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Jan 5, 2022 23:36
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movax posted:I'm trying to find a good video of a DMM exploding 5m 20s or so he puts too much current through a cheap meter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEoazQ1zuUM&t=329s
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Jan 5, 2022 23:43
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MomJeans420 posted:1939 but who knows when the wiring was added. I just thought the two neutrals going to the same terminal was weird but apparently switch loop was the answer. So the concept you need to internalize with switch loops is that you used to have one constant powered fixtured in the room on the ceiling with a pull chain to turn it on and off. Now (in the 70s or 80s) that's too dated so you want to upgrade to a fantastic new switch on the wall. So what does your electrician do? They pull a piece of standard 14/2 wire from a box on the wall for you new switch to the box that has power. Because that's all they've got, and that's what available. The custom in most areas is to connect the white wire fron the new run to the hot in that ceiling box. That way when someone opens the ceiling box they KNOW something is going on, and it's probably a switch loop. Then you connect the black wire from that new run to the the terminal that used to have the always-on hot on your light fixture. Down at the wall box you just throw a switch between the two conductors of the cable you pulled. Easy peasy. But it sucks to figure out. And not everyone follows the custom of which colors to use. So you end up doing electrical archeology to figure it out. On nasty old wire. Motronic fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 23:52
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spf3million posted:This is probably outside the scope of this thread but here goes. D was a common hot spliced off of the hot knob and tube somewhere between the attic and the wall switch. A was the second half of a two wire loop switch, the neutral junctioned into the netural knob and tube array wire in the attic. B was the post-switch hot to two cans in the ceiling that also had a neutral looping directly back to the attic neutral K&T. C was the post-switch hot to a newish outdoor fixture. F was the neutral return from the new fixture E was the continuation of the neutral terminating in the neutral array of the K&T in the basement via a random 14g THHN. Getting a wire through the lower half of the wall to the crawl space was much easier than going back to the attic. I was unsuccessful fishing any new wire through the wall where this switch was up to the attic. What I ended up doing was complete over kill. I ran 6/3 from my main panel all the way through my crawl space to a new 50A sub in the attic (I plan on moving the washer and dryer to the attic so I need at least 30A up there anyway). From there I installed a 15A breaker and ran 14/2 romex through an interior wall to a junction box in the crawlspace under this switch. From there I continued with the 14/2 up to the switch box. Hots to all three: the left switch was wired with a 14/2 to the box in the basement and terminated for future use, the middle was wired back to the basement box as well, then up through the interior wall to the attic again over to the can light, for the right switch I utilized the existing 14/2 in the wall to the new fixture.   photo taken before I grounded the box I also ripped out roughly half of the K&T in my attic and replaced with romex. Feel good about that incremental improvement. Unfortunately when removing the cans I somehow hosed up the clips that hold it into the drywall so I had to buy new ones. Even worse, while reinstalling the attic floor boards, I decided to go ahead and shovel out some of the old insulation to replace it with fiberglass rolls and in the process discovered the shards of an old Zonolite bag which apparently contains asbestos  First abatement quote is $3,600, waiting on two more. Fortunately there's a trust out there that will apparently cover 55% of Zonolite abatement costs. Funny what starts out as a simple switch investigation turns into a $600 capital project and a $1,600 remediation project.
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Jan 6, 2022 04:06
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I know nothing but am I supposed to boo the electrical tape on the twisty wire hats?
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Jan 6, 2022 07:16
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I am imagining an electrician opening up that j box years from now, wondering what the hell went on with all that tape.
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Jan 6, 2022 13:57
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The future electrician will see the tape and sigh loudly, knowing this is a HO DIY job and there could be any unknown level of fuckery going on.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:17
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B-Nasty posted:The future electrician will see the tape and sigh loudly, knowing this is a HO DIY job and there could be any unknown level of fuckery going on. Not just the tape, but the amount of unstripped romex inside of the box. And the sheer amount of wire in there period. And that the romex is not supported/secured properly.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:20
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If the biggest issue an electrician has with your job is the aesthetics of it I'd say you did pretty drat good. But you should staple every Romex cable within 12" of the box I believe. E: Fwiw I leave like 10" of wires in every junction box because why not? Makes it way easier to work with in my crawlspace and I just loop them up and stick them back in and they fit no problem. NEC doesn't care until they're 18" or longer. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 16:32
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Y'all are harsh.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:35
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SpartanIvy posted:If the biggest issue an electrician has with your job is the aesthetics of it I'd say you did pretty drat good. Except only of those things is aesthetic. Article 314 (I believe). 1/2" of sheathing maximum inside the box.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:40
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I don't think it should surprise anyone that aesthetics are actually very important to a lot of tradesmen.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:52
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Motronic posted:Ugh....that a CF G24q2? base. It's a dead end of bulbs. Those fixtures only existed for a small amount of time. I was actually able to find a compatible bulb at Home Depot pretty easily, but I suspect that if these two sockets went dead in the last year then the other two aren't far behind, so I could be convinced to replace all four in the room. They at least come out of the ceiling so they can be messed with without having to rip out drywall to get at them-  Also a replacement guide on the can, how close would I need to adhere to this? 
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Jan 6, 2022 16:55
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C-Euro posted:I was actually able to find a compatible bulb at Home Depot pretty easily, but I suspect that if these two sockets went dead in the last year then the other two aren't far behind, so I could be convinced to replace all four in the room. They at least come out of the ceiling so they can be messed with without having to rip out drywall to get at them- Yeah, I didn't mean you couldn't find bulbs for them, I meant that you can probably only find exactly one color temperature, brightness, non-dimmable and it's gonna be a CFL. There is no upgrade path like there would be for a more standard bulb base. Sweet that they come right out of the ceiling. Very easy to retrofit LED pucks/cans. Pick something the same size or larger and you're all set.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:58
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Motronic posted:Except only of those things is aesthetic. Article 314 (I believe). 1/2" of sheathing maximum inside the box. I can't find any reference to that online but don't have a code book to flip through. I did find 314.17(C) which specifies the sheath must extend past clamps into a box at least 1/4", but no maximum was specified. E: had the wrong NEC section. Fixed it. Rufio posted:I don't think it should surprise anyone that aesthetics are actually very important to a lot of tradesmen. In my experience they're only important when they're trying to talk down others work, whether in person or YouTube comments. They know the best way to do things but all the tradesman work I've seen has been done with the prioritization of high speed and low parts cost, while staying roughly within code. Anything that also happens to look good is a fluke. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 17:01
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Aesthetics are specifically mentioned in the NEC, but they use the terminology 'neat and workman like manner'. It's vague, but it leaves a good deal up to the AHJ, who ultimately makes the call. Nobody wants to open a jbox to find a rats nest of wires, even if it doesn't technically violate specific code sections.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:03
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SpartanIvy posted:In my experience they're only important when they're trying to talk down others work, whether in person or YouTube comments. They know the best way to do things but all the tradesman work I've seen has been done with the prioritization of high speed and low parts cost, while staying roughly within code. Anything that also happens to look good is a fluke. And as former code enforcement I assure you that seeing things done in an unworkmanlike manner is a gigantic flashing neon sign that indicates there is a 90%+ chance that are multiple serious code violations on the job. Aesthetics are also part of code in a broad sense so that's it's not so prescriptive as to be unachievable, but it's very well understood how "workmanlike" looks.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:09
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The tape is color coding and not functional right? Those nuts stay put without it? Good job. Unless there is something dangerous in there I'm missing that looks like a job well done. Nit picking? Sure unclamp and back out the sheething to the clamps then reclamp, or strip more of it carefully if you want to leave more wire for future you.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:11
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314.17(B)(2) says "Where cable assemblies with nonmetallic sheaths are used, the sheath shall extend not less than 6 mm (1/4 in.) inside the box and beyond any cable clamp." So that reads to me as a minimum, not a maximum.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:15
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Motronic posted:And as former code enforcement I assure you that seeing things done in an unworkmanlike manner is a gigantic flashing neon sign that indicates there is a 90%+ chance that are multiple serious code violations on the job. I appreciate your high standards and pointing out issues or even questioning things that might be issues because we should all strive for perfection, but let's not pretend that tradespeople are all masters that work on every job like it's their Magnum Opus and that any flaw we make would never have been made by one. I've been called out for mimicking poo poo I've seen licensed pros do and sure enough it was wrong after I looked into it. Specifically related to the current argument, I punched out the internal clamps on my plastic junction boxes when feeding Romex in and while I did staple within 8" of the boxes, that code exception is only for single gang boxes. A prior licensed contractor made that mistake and I repeated it. Will my house burn down from it? Probably not, but it's on my list to fix.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:30
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Looking at the previous electricians work, nitpicking, and telling a helper that it looks like poo poo and why is a time honored tradition that I will not be denied. Of course speed is a priority but as you get more skilled and repeat the same work over and over, aesthetics become more and more important. And as Motronic said, seeing work not done in a workman like manner or seeing atypical methods being used (like all that tape) is usually a red flag. There isn't a tradesman in the world who wants to go behind a homeowner job, whether it happens to work properly or not.
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Jan 6, 2022 17:44
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I don't tape wire nuts (...anymore) but I still wrap outlets and switches if they are a) in a metal box or b) in a multi gang box. Maybe the next guy is gonna be working on the circuit live, and will appreciate the tape preventing him from accidentally shorting something. I obviously would never do something so silly as to work on a live circuit. This is strictly for the safety of some other theoretical guy who might short something while loving about in a live box. Honest.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:11
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Slugworth posted:I don't tape wire nuts (...anymore) but I still wrap outlets and switches if they are a) in a metal box or b) in a multi gang box. Maybe the next guy is gonna be working on the circuit live, and will appreciate the tape preventing him from accidentally shorting something. You should get these rubber bands specifically for that. I was watching an electrician wiring competition and they were provided with them and they beat the hell out of electrical tape in my mind. Thicker, reusable, don't make a sticky mess. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-ArmourBand-Insulating-Wrap-Blue-1000-Box-47-120/313258004
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Jan 6, 2022 21:22
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Slugworth posted:I don't tape wire nuts (...anymore) but I still wrap outlets and switches if they are a) in a metal box or b) in a multi gang box. Maybe the next guy is gonna be working on the circuit live, and will appreciate the tape preventing him from accidentally shorting something. Yeah I think this is good practice in metal boxes. There is such little clearance and if it's a remodel box secured with an F clip then it's almost necessary.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:25
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Motronic posted:Except only of those things is aesthetic. Article 314 (I believe). 1/2" of sheathing maximum inside the box. What is the rationale behind this? Pretty much everything else I've seen in code makes obvious sense. I can't wrap my mind around this one.
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Jan 7, 2022 08:39
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BonerGhost posted:What is the rationale behind this? Pretty much everything else I've seen in code makes obvious sense. I can't wrap my mind around this one. Probably stops overcrowding a box while still ensuring the Romex isn’t peeled back too far?
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Jan 7, 2022 08:58
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