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CoolCab posted:has anyone solved the burn in problem yet? yeah QD-OLED solves the burn-in problem. Basically a large part of the reason burn-in happens is because the subpixels wear unevenly. In particular the red subpixels wear out faster than the other ones. QD is a different kind of emissive technology. Basically it works sort of like a phosphor on a CRT - the glow you see isn't from the electron beam itself, it's because the beam charges up the phosphor and the phosphor glows. Samsung has come up with this thing called a Quantum Dot where it's an additional layer in the screen, and instead of it being purely transmissive, the backlight actually just charges up the quantum dot and the LCD layer is used to control how much each dot gets charged. That's what's in their QLED screens - the name is deceptive, it's nothing like an OLED, but it actually is a huge step over just a basic transmissive LCD (VA, IPS, TN, etc) because it can generate much brighter and more saturated colors and doesn't need backlight zones/etc. QD-OLED is the combination of the two technologies. So, get rid of the backlight+transmissive layers and replace them with a single OLED backlight layer that direct-drives the quantum dots. And because the colors aren't generated by the OLEDs themselves, you can use all the same color OLED backlight for the subpixels and the quantum dots turn that into red or green subpixels. And they use blue because it's the most durable and least susceptible to burn-in, so the wear factor is a lot less. I'm guessing if you really tried you can still burn them in but they should be way way better. As mentioned, they're confident enough to put a 3-year burn-in warranty on them, which probably means that if you take the usual OLED precautions it'll last a decade, or probably 5+ years if you're reasonable about brightness/etc. also of note, they're actually brighter than LG's WOLED tech (their OLED tv line) I'm guessing partially because of this - I'm sure you could drive OLED harder but they're trying to strike a balance between panel life/burn-in and HDR brightness. But you can drive QD-OLED harder because it's all blue pixels. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 20:01
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edit: ^^^^ This still allows for the uneven wear of subpixels, so I don't know if we can say that this solves the issue. I think the most we can confidently say is that because quantum dots are so much more efficient at light conversion than LCD color filters are, the pixels should wear out more slowly to achieve the same brightness levels. VelociBacon posted:Peak monitor brightness number seems a lot like highest mouse DPI number, in that nobody really sets their mouse to the highest DPI and nobody sets their monitor to max brightness right? Or is this a max brightness in little areas for highlights to complement HDR? It's about highlights, mostly. Nobody wants to look at the screen at a sustained 1000 nits. A three-year burn-in warranty is nice, but with how expensive this product is bound to be, I'd like it if it were five years. CoolCab posted:has anyone solved the burn in problem yet? So basically, no, nothing has been "solved" yet. There have just been some mitigating steps taken. Dell isn't talking about if they're taking any of those steps, though, so we'll have to see when the monitor is out. Things that could help improve longevity: a screen shifter, where they have a buffer zone of pixels along the edges that they slowly bounce the screen around in; a pixel refresher, where they periodically "trim" pixels to ensure they're being worn in a more even manner (burn-in is more like burn-out, or pixel wear, but in an uneven manner); ABL or automatic brightness limiter, an LG feature that many PC users hate because it lowers the brightness when there's a lot of white or bright colors on screen. The latter is something they may forgo in a display intended for desktop use, but the first two features are something they should do to help mitigate the issue. This is Dell's and Samsung's first OLED displays though, so I could see this being something that they overlook. Those are fairly basic features, but as far as technological advancements that reduce the issue, that's mostly down to the stability of the organic compounds used, and how hot you're making them as you send electric currents through them to light them up. This means that the more power efficient an OLED panel is, the more burn-in resistant it is. Use of a good heat dissipation system also helps (such as sony's OLED heatsink). There have been a lot of things these companies have done to make the pixels brighter while consuming less power/generating less heat, and that in turn improves the pixel durability. QD-OLED is another such innovation--I would expect these monitors to consume less power while normalized to the same brightness level as an LG W-OLED panel would at the same resolution. All of that said, even if they have the whole shebang of mitigation features and organic compound durability innovations, you should still take some basic steps to protect the display, such as lowering your screen brightness, using dark mode themes, auto-hiding the taskbar, trying to have static interface elements on screen as infrequently as possible, etc. Otherwise it will likely be a matter of when and not if the screen will show permanent burn-in. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 20:03
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QD-OLED will stop displaying a white screen causing a change in color over time, but it won't stop displaying white on the left and black on the right from causing noticeable burnout over time, or other similar issues. If you sit on a solid red screen all day, the elements responsible for exciting the red QDs are still burning out faster than the rest. I'm cautiously optimistic about all these developments but it's really wait and see as far as I'm concerned.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:10
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thank you both, both very clarifying 
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Jan 4, 2022 22:26
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Sponsored video, but I found it pretty informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piteu5gyKq0
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Jan 4, 2022 22:34
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I'm surprised nobody took the shortcut of making an OLED computer display that just prompted you to rotate it 180 degrees every set number of display hours. A little annoying, but could have been an early mover into an under served market and allowed the use of 'current' panels that otherwise would have exhibited burn in to quickly. Well, let's hope Samsung is a first mover, and there are plenty more displays that will follow.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:27
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I'm interested in seeing what they do for gaming monitors, but I'm not really holding my breath. Hitting the trifecta of response time, input lag, and refresh rate seems to be a struggle, not to mention burn in. They say it's 'not an issue' but I'll believe that when I see it.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:30
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There's more to want anyway. Strobing is a huuuge deal, and as yet it's not a thing on OLEDs. 0.1ms response times are nothing in comparison to only displaying an image for 0.1ms. Maybe with QD-OLEDs alleged increased ability to pump brightness without wearing out as badly, we'll see decent strobing become a thing, but it's probably still years away.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:43
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EoRaptor posted:I'm surprised nobody took the shortcut of making an OLED computer display that just prompted you to rotate it 180 degrees every set number of display hours. A little annoying, but could have been an early mover into an under served market and allowed the use of 'current' panels that otherwise would have exhibited burn in to quickly. That's a pretty interesting idea. For whatever reason though, be it driver issues or windows being dumb, flipping a display 180 degrees seems to create some non-trivial amounts of input lag, and G-Sync stops working correctly. People run into this issue when trying to flip BGR displays. It's very strange. Canine Blues Arooo posted:I'm interested in seeing what they do for gaming monitors, but I'm not really holding my breath. Hitting the trifecta of response time, input lag, and refresh rate seems to be a struggle, not to mention burn in. They say it's 'not an issue' but I'll believe that when I see it. This trifecta is not a problem with OLED. Input lag will be down to processing, but that hasn't been an issue with previous samsung panels, and LG's oled panels have excellent input lag. Response times are also near-instantaneous with OLED displays, which is one of their advantages (but also one of their drawbacks when it comes to low-fps content like 24fps or 30fps video—it appears more stuttery due to the instant transitions). And 175hz is a pretty good refresh rate. They aren't advertising BFI right now, but if they add that kind of feature then I can see that being the most motion clarity anyone reasonably needs.120hz with BFI on the C1 looks excellent, after all. I just wonder why they went with 175hz instead of 180hz. 60/30fps content will judder slightly due to that. Burn-in though I'm in agreement with. The issue is that it's impossible to judge without a lot of time to test with. Show me what the displays belonging to the most stubborn users possible look like after a year of very intensive daily use. Brightness set to 200 nits, light mode on everything, no auto hiding of any interface elements, 8+ hours a day for a year straight. If it can withstand that kind of abuse, then I'm listening. And I'd like it to withstand that abuse for the full three-year warranty period (or ideally, fail just before the period ends  ). If it can't, then I will continue considering burn-in to be a serious issue.K8.0 posted:There's more to want anyway. Strobing is a huuuge deal, and as yet it's not a thing on OLEDs. 0.1ms response times are nothing in comparison to only displaying an image for 0.1ms. Maybe with QD-OLEDs alleged increased ability to pump brightness without wearing out as badly, we'll see decent strobing become a thing, but it's probably still years away. LG's OLED TVs have strobing. It's very good. It appears to be a three-ish ms flicker at 120hz instead of 0.1, but you really don't want 0.1 anyway. The fastest TN or IPS panels with backlight strobing use 0.5 to 1ms strobe lengths, and those can work very well if tuned correctly. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 01:44
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:LG's OLED TVs have strobing. It's very good. It appears to be a three-ish ms flicker at 120hz instead of 0.1, but you really don't want 0.1 anyway. The fastest TN or IPS panels with backlight strobing use 0.5 to 1ms strobe lengths, and those can work very well if tuned correctly. Good point. For whatever reason I was under the impression that they only did BFI at 60hz. I don't think there's such a thing as strobing too fast, but I think 3ms would be enough of an improvement in most scenarios for it to not feel compromised to me.
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Jan 5, 2022 01:59
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VelociBacon posted:Peak monitor brightness number seems a lot like highest mouse DPI number, in that nobody really sets their mouse to the highest DPI and nobody sets their monitor to max brightness right? Or is this a max brightness in little areas for highlights to complement HDR? The peak brightness number for an OLED display is almost always only achievable for a very small bright zone - you can't turn the entire display into a giant floodlight. I don't know exactly why this is but I think part of the reason is power limits. If you're displaying a mostly white image across the entire screen, most OLED's can't even get half as bright as a plain old IPS display - we're talking less than 150 nits max for a lot of them. also if you early adopt this poo poo you definitely have more money than sense. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 02:25
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In other monitor news today, Acer re-announces their Predator X32 monitor. Two years ago, they announced it as a 4K display with 1152 local dimming zones and over 1400 nits of peak brightness, with a 144hz refresh rate. It never came out. Now, two years later, they're reannouncing it as having 576 dimming zones with 1200 nits of peak brightness, but with a 165hz refresh rate. So they've spent these last two years figuring out how to downgrade the monitor but still charge users an eye-watering $2000 for it? Also lmao at acer still being unable to put this thing out to market until at least Q3 this year. God drat these LCD gaming monitor manufacturers suck.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:46
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Is this also the TV megathread? I just had my living room set die on me in the middle of the Omicron spike and wanted to seek some wisdom on what replacement I should get, but the OP didn't seem to have much TV stuff.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:50
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loquacius posted:Is this also the TV megathread? I just had my living room set die on me in the middle of the Omicron spike and wanted to seek some wisdom on what replacement I should get, but the OP didn't seem to have much TV stuff. Right this way https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3523461&pagenumber=529&perpage=40
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Jan 5, 2022 02:54
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:That's a pretty interesting idea. For whatever reason though, be it driver issues or windows being dumb, flipping a display 180 degrees seems to create some non-trivial amounts of input lag, and G-Sync stops working correctly. People run into this issue when trying to flip BGR displays. It's very strange. In my mental design, the flip was handled totally within the display controller in the monitor, powered by some onscreen display reminders and a cheap angle sensor from a mobile phone. Windows/GPU doesn't 'know' it's happening. The RGB to BGR issue is trickier, maybe have a usb hookup and TSR to switch clearview modes each time.
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Jan 5, 2022 02:59
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teh_Broseph posted:Right this way https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3523461&pagenumber=529&perpage=40 
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Jan 5, 2022 03:07
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:That's a pretty interesting idea. For whatever reason though, be it driver issues or windows being dumb, flipping a display 180 degrees seems to create some non-trivial amounts of input lag, and G-Sync stops working correctly. People run into this issue when trying to flip BGR displays. It's very strange. There's been issues like that on phones too, even though they have much tighter integration of the display stack e.g. the OnePlus 5 had the panel mounted upside down and suffered from "jelly scrolling" as a result https://www.engadget.com/2017-06-30-oneplus-5s-jelly-scrolling-upside-down-screen.html Scanning the image out backwards makes weird things happen repiv fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 03:10
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Yeah, the scanout direction is a real thing. You aren't steering an electron beam anymore, but the hardware is designed to process data the same way and it's not at all surprising poo poo goes south when you ask it to work backwards. Displays don't "get a screen and then display it", then get a stream of display data, handle certain bits, and shove the body of it down a pipeline that changes the colors of pixels. It'd probably be fairly trivial for GPU manufacturers to fix the issue by handling rotation entirely on their side where it's completely arbitrary, but it doesn't seem like they give a poo poo about doing so.
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Jan 5, 2022 03:39
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K8.0 posted:Yeah, the scanout direction is a real thing. You aren't steering an electron beam anymore, but the hardware is designed to process data the same way and it's not at all surprising poo poo goes south when you ask it to work backwards. Displays don't "get a screen and then display it", then get a stream of display data, handle certain bits, and shove the body of it down a pipeline that changes the colors of pixels. It's a dead idea anyway, if this Samsung QD-OLED display can break into the pc market, others will follow. I hope it does, I'd love to get a PC display with OLEDs benefits.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:04
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LG's also announced the LG 32GQ950 today, their next 4K gaming monitor: https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/lg-32gq950-with-31-5-nano-ips-panel-4k-160hz-and-a-tw-polarizer With this, we're getting the return of the A-TW polarizer. This is something most monitor manufacturers have stopped using. It reduces or eliminates IPS glow, the backlight glowing that can happen in dark scenes on the corners of your screen. This should help with black uniformity quite a bit, which can almost be more important to perceived contrast than the actual contrast ratio. It's also certified as DisplayHDR1000. Previous LG 4K monitors were just DisplayHDR400. Having the 1000 certification doesn't mean much since VESA makes it so easy to cheat, but there are very few monitors with this cert coming out that don't have FALD backlights, so I'm interested to see if this will too (barely any details are known so far, though TFT Central thinks this may just be edge-lit). LG is not saying if this uses their new "IPS Black" tech that supposedly gives a 2000:1 native contrast ratio. There are very few details in general, so maybe they will reveal that later. (or maybe they won't, and they're confusingly just using IPS Black in productivity monitors?)
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Jan 5, 2022 04:24
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:With this, we're getting the return of the A-TW polarizer. Woah (what took so long? [probably costs])
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Jan 5, 2022 04:38
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It has downsides with color. Maybe with more high-contrast displays on the market LG is finding that they'd rather sacrifice some color uniformity for some luminance uniformity.
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Jan 5, 2022 04:47
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https://twitter.com/qbking77/status/1478555909068505088 why edit: also this: https://www.techpowerup.com/290563/msi-announces-27-300-hz-rapid-ips-mini-led-monitor MSI MEG271Q, 27" 1440p 300hz 576 backlight zones. AOC AG274QGM and ViewSonic XG272G-2K announced with the same specs also, so they all use the same panel. mini led everywhere now, and it's all going to be overpriced and disappointing in these sub-1000-zone displays. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 07:39
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I’d get that if it was a more reasonable 42" or 48".
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Jan 5, 2022 09:02
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Was that stupid thing designed by the chiropractor lobby? Holy loving neck strain.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:13
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Is there a standard recommendation now a days for an ultra wide 34” monitor for home office and maybe gaming in the future? Cost wise I’m okay with spending. If it’s worth anything I have high expectations and have an OLED TV. I bought some LCD TVs but the light bleed and spotlighting drove me nuts.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:26
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 Of the 4 pics, only 1 of them is oriented normally. idk why they chose to show off the insane neckbreaking vertical orientation though. Looks absolutely miserable to use.
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Jan 5, 2022 17:07
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Are 2880p panels going appear on the horizon any time soon? Other than that bullshit-expensive custom Apple thing I mean.
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Jan 5, 2022 17:49
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:
I gotta say, that giant curve on a 16:9 looks loving stupid
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Jan 5, 2022 17:51
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It's just the first commercial version of this thing:
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Jan 5, 2022 18:08
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Boner Wad posted:Is there a standard recommendation now a days for an ultra wide 34” monitor for home office and maybe gaming in the future? Cost wise I’m okay with spending. If it’s worth anything I have high expectations and have an OLED TV. I bought some LCD TVs but the light bleed and spotlighting drove me nuts. Ultrawides have worse backlight consistency than 16:9 displays so either don't or wait for that Samsung QD-OLED panel. Personally, I tend to think ultrawide is about to fall off hard. 4k is really taking off now, and 4k gaming ultrawides don't exist and would be unjustifiably hard to drive for the most part anyway. If you've got some kind of work flow where an ultrawide actually makes you money then maybe an Odyssey G9 if you don't mind possibly returning them until you get a good one. That's a 32:9 5120x1440p monitor with, in good examples, much better black consistency than the competition. There's also the G9 Neo if you want to spend even more and deal with potentially even more QC issues because pretty decent HDR support will make you more money.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:10
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Wrong thread.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:15
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I'm considering a return on a Dell S2721QS (27", 4k, $330) because the color falls off around the edges. It looks like the old LCD color shift that happens when you're off center, except it's an IPS monitor. If I position myself directly in front of the edge then the colors are correct but I can see that the backlight is a little more faded in that area. Are there 27" monitors that don't react this way, or is this just a result of using a larger monitor? My old 1080p monitors were all 23". edit: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. vvvvvvvv Comatoast fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 18:23
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lovely backlighting and excessive leaking/poor contrast at edges is in at least some part a consequence of monitors trying to have very small bezels and be very thin. Keep in mind that that's a Dell, meaning it's got a price premium on it even though it's a standard business class monitor, but also it's a $300 4k, which is at the cheap end of the spectrum. It is probably a bit worse than some other monitors, especially some of the better ones. It's also possible you got a particularly bad example. You can definitely do better, but I can't guarantee you'll be 100% satisfied with any particular monitor.
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Jan 5, 2022 18:35
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Paul MaudDib posted:I gotta say, that giant curve on a 16:9 looks loving stupid Curve usefulness is more about total width than aspect ratio in my opinion, but this particular curve seems strange and non-uniform. 55" 16:9 = 48" wide, which is two inches wider than an Odyssey G9, so a curve makes sitting close to this a bit more viable. It's the only way a 55" 16:9 monitor makes sense, in my opinion. Though I'd like a higher resolution in that case. This is an 80 PPI display, so you're gonna see those pixels sitting just a couple feet from it. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 18:40
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K8.0 posted:Ultrawides have worse backlight consistency than 16:9 displays so either don't or wait for that Samsung QD-OLED panel. Personally, I tend to think ultrawide is about to fall off hard. 4k is really taking off now, and 4k gaming ultrawides don't exist and would be unjustifiably hard to drive for the most part anyway. If you've got some kind of work flow where an ultrawide actually makes you money then maybe an Odyssey G9 if you don't mind possibly returning them until you get a good one. That's a 32:9 5120x1440p monitor with, in good examples, much better black consistency than the competition. There's also the G9 Neo if you want to spend even more and deal with potentially even more QC issues because pretty decent HDR support will make you more money. I'm not tied to ultrawide. Any 4k options I should consider?
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Jan 5, 2022 19:01
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Boner Wad posted:I'm not tied to ultrawide. Any 4k options I should consider? The upcoming 42" LG C2? Or alternatively, the multiple DP1.4-accepting monitors that have been announced by the usual suspects using the same panel. Ultimately, the LCD space is highly disappointing right now. There are a lot of pretty alright options that we've been sharing, but they all have various minor issues you have to overlook, and they all have disappointing HDR capabilities, and you're playing panel lottery with just about all of them when it comes to backlight bleed or IPS glow. On that last note, maybe LG's upcoming monitors will be more uniform than the rest since they seem to be implementing more features with better black uniformity as a goal. The newly announced LG 32GQ950 looks interesting in that regard.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:12
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Enos Cabell posted:Was that stupid thing designed by the chiropractor lobby? Holy loving neck strain. I have a 34" ultrawide in portrait to my right and yeah the top third is where windows i need to glance at every 15 minutes go to die
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Jan 5, 2022 20:14
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https://www.techpowerup.com/290597/viewsonic-launches-its-flagship-32-inch-elite-xg321ug-4k-mini-led-gaming-monitor This one at least has over 1000 zones, but it's $2500. I knew everyone would be launching mini LED flagships, but they're really going all-in on this ploy it seems. What did we have as of last year in the $2000+ price category for gaming monitors? Samsung's Neo G9, Asus's PG32UQX, perhaps a couple high-end 38" 1600p ultrawides, and is that it? Now it seems like we're getting a dozen gaming monitors at $2000 or more next year. The market for hilariously overpriced, depressingly underperforming flagship gaming monitors can't be big enough to support all of these. Especially not with the 42" C2 looming overhead. I'm going to stop whining about these new monitor announcements as soon as CES is over, I swear.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:29
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:https://www.techpowerup.com/290597/viewsonic-launches-its-flagship-32-inch-elite-xg321ug-4k-mini-led-gaming-monitor
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