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Herstory Begins Now posted:a lot more sources than just the police union were using the 140 number, p sure the police union guy got it from them and not the other way around. Can you substantiate that claim? e: because I'm looking right now and I honestly can't find an earlier source for the 140 number than the WaPo citing the police union. As I said, I'm not entirely discounting the number, but if the last few years of history has taught us anything about police unions, it's not to accept their claims uncritically, without digging into the actual data. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 09:12
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Majorian posted:Can you substantiate that claim? https://www.newsweek.com/134-police-officers-injured-capitol-riots-court-filing-1564166 doj court filing says 134 If someone wants to argue that the crowd was not violent by all means go for it, but given the amount of footage of the crowd being violent, idk who is seriously calling that into question mawarannahr posted:Again, if it were a serious threat, we would have heard some charges by now. The most powerful people in the world have found no way to show they were in mortal danger and it’s not for lack of trying — charges were already dropped. If you think they were still actually aiming to take them hostage and harm them, you’re only speculating and you’re weirdly more concerned for their safety than they are. eh procedurally simpler poo poo gets charged first for reasons ranging from 1) it's easier to 2) you can compel testimony via bargains against juicier targets later. i have no clue where the investigation will go and i certainly do not put a ton of faith in any aspect of the american justice system doing a particularly competent job investigating white guys, but it's certainly premature to declare that no horrible charges currently=none will ever happen. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 09:19
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mawarannahr posted:Again, if it were a serious threat, we would have heard some charges by now. The most powerful people in the world have found no way to show they were in mortal danger and it’s not for lack of trying — charges were already dropped. If you think they were still actually aiming to take them hostage and harm them, you’re only speculating and you’re weirdly more concerned for their safety than they are. this is just a different sort of liberal malaise than the one you're decrying. you're arguing that the system didn't rise to actually handle a problem the way it merited, and as a result it must not have been that big a problem.
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Jan 7, 2022 09:26
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Herstory Begins Now posted:https://www.newsweek.com/134-police-officers-injured-capitol-riots-court-filing-1564166 I expect they probably got that number directly from the DC metro and Capitol police. But let's take that total as a given; it would still probably be good to know what the nature and the severity of the injuries were. quote:If someone wants to argue that the crowd was not violent by all means go for it, but given the amount of footage of the crowd being violent, idk who is seriously calling that into question Who is saying the crowd wasn't violent? I don't think anyone is making that argument at all. Some folks are questioning whether or not the mob would likely have literally torn people limb-from-limb, but that's not the same thing as saying that the crowd wasn't violent.
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Jan 7, 2022 09:32
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im just responding to hashtag girlboss who clearly questions how violent the day actually wasMajorian posted:Some folks are questioning whether or not the mob would likely have literally torn people limb-from-limb, but that's not the same thing as saying that the crowd wasn't violent. i've never asserted this, or really anything beyond 'the crowd was clearly quite violent and attacked a lot of cops' so that doesn't really have any bearing on what i've posted Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 09:40
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Herstory Begins Now posted:im just responding to hashtag girlboss who clearly questions how violent the day actually was Right but the claim that the mob would have torn people limb from limb is where this line of discussion began: BiggerBoat posted:Except they were very much personally threatened. That is why posters like hashtag girlboss and myself are questioning whether or not what we know about the violence of the day actually substantiates that claim.
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Jan 7, 2022 09:46
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Yeah and I'm not touching that piece of pure speculation cuz who tf knows what was going to happen in some hypothetical situation that didn't happen. I'm purely interested in what did happen and was there a crowd rolling around attacking people. If you want to argue about congresspeople hypothetically getting ripped limb from limb by the crowd, reply to the people talking about that not me
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Jan 7, 2022 09:51
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Majorian posted:That is why posters like hashtag girlboss and myself are questioning whether or not what we know about the violence of the day actually substantiates that claim. It's not possible to know what might've happened. Angry mobs can very quickly get out of hand, and unlike the comparison HTGB was drawing, we do know for certain that this was a mob hanging people in effigy and actually planting bombs. You can claim, as mawarannahr did, that it wasn't a serious threat because the police and prosecutors haven't taken it seriously, but what the gently caress kind of idiot trusts the judgement of police and prosecutors? Limb from limb seems like an exaggeration, though. That's how I took it.
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Jan 7, 2022 09:52
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Cease to Hope posted:It's not possible to know what might've happened. Angry mobs can very quickly get out of hand, and unlike the comparison HTGB was drawing, we do know for certain that this was a mob hanging people in effigy and actually planting bombs. The problem with the way you’re framing it is that it implies that the mob had a singular purpose in planting pipe bombs. From what I’ve seen, none of the groups who participated in the riot are suspected of coordinating with the lone pipe bomb suspect. Again, that’s not to say that there weren’t a few people in the mob with murder on their minds or whatever; there may well have been. But I also don’t think it makes sense to assume that it was the case for more than a handful of the people who were there, until we see evidence that it was. Like I said earlier, outright killing someone in cold blood is a few steps above rushing a cop or punching a journalist, and I don’t think very many of these petty bourgeoise dumbshits had the balls to take those steps.
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Jan 7, 2022 10:12
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Majorian posted:The problem with the way you’re framing it is that it implies that the mob had a singular purpose in planting pipe bombs. I don't find "it was just a lone wolf" convincing when the police say it either. The crowd exists as cover for the handful of people, that's what stochastic terror is. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 10:16
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Majorian posted:The problem with the way you’re framing it is that it implies that the mob had a singular purpose in planting pipe bombs. From what I’ve seen, none of the groups who participated in the riot are suspected of coordinating with the lone pipe bomb suspect. Again, that’s not to say that there weren’t a few people in the mob with murder on their minds or whatever; there may well have been. But I also don’t think it makes sense to assume that it was the case for more than a handful of the people who were there, until we see evidence that it was. Like I said earlier, outright killing someone in cold blood is a few steps above rushing a cop or punching a journalist, and I don’t think very many of these petty bourgeoise dumbshits had the balls to take those steps. it doesn't really take any balls at all (nor is the absence of any a hindrance) when you know that you're largely above suffering any consequences
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Jan 7, 2022 10:20
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Herstory Begins Now posted:im just responding to hashtag girlboss who clearly questions how violent the day actually was The people making the (pretty inherently extreme) positive claim of "the crowd would have literally violently murdered people" kind of have the burden of proof here. You'd need to at least show instances of the sort of violence that can reasonably result in murder. A bunch of police suffering the sort of minor injuries you'd usually expect from a large riot confrontation like that isn't really significant (and the injuries in question are also to people who were directly conflicting with the rioters; it'd at least be relevant if hiding/fleeing staff had been caught and seriously injured). This is all just backwards reasoning to justify the way people feel about the event. "I felt really strongly about this, so there must be a rational reason - I know, it's because they totally would have murdered all the politicians if things had gone a little differently!"
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Jan 7, 2022 10:57
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Sure if i was making that argument whatsoever? except I'm very explicitly not
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Jan 7, 2022 11:20
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This was obvious from the start but I’m not sure we’ve seen anyone come out and say it. https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1479429179045257221?s=21 quote:“We have information that members hosted people who came to Washington on that day in their office,” Rep. Bennie G. Thompson (D-Miss.) said during an interview Thursday at a Washington Post Live event. “We have pictures of members [of Congress] taking pictures with people who came to the rally … There’s a smaller subset of members that have been identified who probably did more to encourage the ‘Stop the Steal’ part of coming to Washington.” Boebert and green obviously. Probably cawthorn. Probably Scott perry.
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Jan 7, 2022 13:30
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Cops were standing in their way and trying to stop them from where they wanted to. This lead to altercations. Have you ever been at a large protest when cops show up and start trying to do crowd control? Getting in scuffles with cops is just different So the pipe bombs, weapons and zip ties were there for decoration then? No one was hurt or killed inside the building because they got everyone evacuated Herstory Begins Now posted:
Seriously. Here's some light reading on the subject https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-joe-biden-donald-trump-c470f3d5465721933dc896a371c7be19 https://apnews.com/article/jan-6-how-racist-rage-animated-riots-54ccb3bb19908667afcbe2e5c8b8e5ca https://apnews.com/article/photos-election-jan6-trump-Washington-f69b5f03316eaef2044d520bc7ffe49a https://apnews.com/article/jan-6-capitol-siege-lawmakers-trauma-04e29724aa6017180259385642c1b990 https://apnews.com/article/riots-0306b74458a99c6462333a9ee4779716
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Jan 7, 2022 13:45
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Cease to Hope posted:this is just a different sort of liberal malaise than the one you're decrying. you're arguing that the system didn't rise to actually handle a problem the way it merited, and as a result it must not have been that big a problem. The system *did* rise to handle the problem, perpetrators were investigated, arrested, and charged. It just turns out the problem was much smaller than depicted by the media.
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Jan 7, 2022 13:48
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lil poopendorfer posted:The system *did* rise to handle the problem, perpetrators were investigated, arrested, and charged. It just turns out the problem was much smaller than depicted by the media. you skimmed over "the way it merited". it's not the first time nor the last cops and prosecutors go light on right wing political violence. it's weird as gently caress to see ostensible leftists say, "ah yes, this time, the criminal justice system definitely got it right."
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Jan 7, 2022 14:08
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https://twitter.com/cawthornfornc/status/1479121581372624904?s=21
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Jan 7, 2022 14:11
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"Had they encountered, say, AOC the very irrational crowd attacking police and media would've suddenly become as gentle as a lamb" Right guys. Right.
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Jan 7, 2022 14:25
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Yeah guys, sure they planted live explosives in multiple areas (including the building were the Vice President of the United States was), brought restraining devices, were hanging people in effigy, chanting about committing extrajudicial murder, and brought firearms violently into a government building but we have no way of knowing if they would have harmed the focus of obsessive right-wing media violence fantasies for the last several years. There's just no way to know for sure so we have to assume that no violence would have occurred.
FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 14:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:https://www.newsweek.com/134-police-officers-injured-capitol-riots-court-filing-1564166 You have a good honeypot of people here who claim that cops can't be trusted to do anything about fascists, and therefore fascists at the capitol building is no big deal
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Jan 7, 2022 15:12
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I'm just saying that John Hinckley Jr. tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster, and James A. Garfield was successfully taken out by a dude who saved all of his own toenails in a big jar. Going by those metrics the annual Congressional baseball game is a bigger threat to elected politicians' lives than 1/6 turned out to be. And that was with a Sanders Sibling as the perp, not a rwnj.
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Jan 7, 2022 15:13
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CommieGIR posted:"Had they encountered, say, AOC the very irrational crowd attacking police and media would've suddenly become as gentle as a lamb" FLIPADELPHIA posted:There's just no way to know for sure so we have to assume that no violence would have occurred. Are you guys actually reading the posts of the people you're arguing with? No one is denying the possibility of violence, but some of you have wrapped yourselves up in the idea that an orgy of bloodletting was prevented, like the crowd was going to overrun the capital like Gauls and drink the blood from the severed heads of their enemies.
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Jan 7, 2022 15:15
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Cow Bell posted:Are you guys actually reading the posts of the people you're arguing with? No one is denying the possibility of violence, but some of you have wrapped yourselves up in the idea that an orgy of bloodletting was prevented, like the crowd was going to overrun the capital like Gauls and drink the blood from the severed heads of their enemies. Like one guy was arrested with “11 Molotov cocktails, a crossbow with bolts, smoke bombs and a stun gun”, pipbombs got planted, multiple people had all-47s. Why minimize it?
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Jan 7, 2022 15:23
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Cow Bell posted:Are you guys actually reading the posts of the people you're arguing with? No one is denying the possibility of violence, but some of you have wrapped yourselves up in the idea that an orgy of bloodletting was prevented, like the crowd was going to overrun the capital like Gauls and drink the blood from the severed heads of their enemies. They are actively saying nothing was gonna happen if they had gotten their hands on legislators. What are you defending here?
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Jan 7, 2022 16:23
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CommieGIR posted:"Had they encountered, say, AOC the very irrational crowd attacking police and media would've suddenly become as gentle as a lamb" Obviously I can't definitively prove a hypothetical but I'll stand by my opinion that certain lawmakers would have been killed, injured or at a minimum taken hostage had the rioters found them. That last one was what I feared actually happening and that it would lead to bizarre standoff that would last a while. I've overheard enough MAGA conversations, read enough rhetoric, heard enough news and saw enough raw footage from that day to feel comfortable reaching this conclusion. Most of these yahoos ran around aimlessly mostly because lawmakers were successfully evacuated so all they had was a mostly empty building, some papers in a desk and a podium to play with. The people trapped in their offices hiding under desks and behind barricades certainly considered personal harm a very real possibility and didn't think any of it was too funny or pathetic.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:36
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BiggerBoat posted:Obviously I can't definitively prove a hypothetical but I'll stand by my opinion that certain lawmakers would have been killed, injured or at a minimum taken hostage had the rioters found them. That last one was what I feared actually happening and that it would lead to bizarre standoff that would last a while. I've overheard enough MAGA conversations, read enough rhetoric, heard enough news and saw enough raw footage from that day to feel comfortable reaching this conclusion. Most of these yahoos ran around aimlessly mostly because lawmakers were successfully evacuated so all they had was a mostly empty building, some papers in a desk and a podium to play with. Agreed. And the ENTIRE point of them marching on the building was to "change the minds" or "stop the vote" so the idea that they were just coming to have a civil discussion as they assaulted police trying to hold them back is not only counterfactual, its outright insane. Maybe they wouldn't have killed anyone, best case, but they most certainly didn't invade the capital to 'just talk'.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:38
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Like even if 99% of them were just good Christians just there for a peaceful talk, it just takes one guy taking it too far for someone to get hurt. Like if nancy pelosi was in the room when they broke in it wouldn't matter if MOST of them just planned to give her a good natured razzing in a totally friendly way. It would only take one guy deciding he was going to grab her or push her around some for it to go wrong.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:46
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CommieGIR posted:They are actively saying nothing was gonna happen if they had gotten their hands on legislators. What are you defending here? Sorry, double post but OK. Let's turn it around. What do a few of you think might have happened if some of these people had reached Pence, AOC, Pelosi or Omar? Yell at them and pose for selfies before leaving to hit up a Denny's and post videos on Facebook? OR... continued escalation motivated by being a true MAGA hero who saved America by "fighting like hell" after winding themselves up into a frothing rage? They (Proud Boys, 3%-ers, nazis, etc.) violently broke into the Capitol Building and were filmed going door to door looking for members of congress. For what? To have a friendly chat? I realize that "rending limb from limb" was a tad hyperbolic on my part and mistakenly assumed the thread would realize that but reading people here continually downplaying this is baffling to me so talk me down, please, and tell me what YOU think might have happened? Does it end in a "we're not so different you and I" hug as the music swells and the credits roll? Maybe one of the guys with a gun, a knife, some bombs or several zip ties will discover at the last minute that he and Pence or Pelosi's mother share the same name and have a "Martha" moment. Martha? Like...Martha....Washington?
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Jan 7, 2022 16:52
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"We just broke windows and assault cops, but we're here to talk guys, that's all"
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Jan 7, 2022 16:55
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CommieGIR posted:They are actively saying nothing was gonna happen if they had gotten their hands on legislators. It seemed the posters were casting doubt on the consistent depiction of the people at 1/6 as a bloodthirsty hoard, but if this is your interpretation (despite people literally saying the opposite) then I guess that is that. CommieGIR posted:What are you defending here? gently caress off. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2022 17:03
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CommieGIR posted:They are actively saying nothing was gonna happen if they had gotten their hands on legislators. What are you defending here? Can you quote some people saying that absolutely nothing would happen please? You're being unnecessarily vague. Who is "they"?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:05
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Cow Bell posted:gently caress off. If you can't bother to post without doing this, don't post. mawarannahr posted:I really don’t know if they’d go so far as to tear electeds into pieces; they’d probably wuss out. However reasonable that idea may sound, the investigations appear to have found nothing to support this even after they looked, as far as I can tell. If there were something beyond doubt we will hear about it. This is one of those posts. They'd wuss out after already doing multiple illegal and violent acts? What? Again, hyperbole aside, the idea that they'd find someone like AOC, Pelosi, or Pence and just 'wuss out' is a strange take given what they were already willing to do when pushed by 1-2 people in the crowd. They largely didn't wuss out until violent law enforcement reaction and a rioter being shot happened. Prior to that they seemed well motivated by people in the crowd riling them up. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 17:10
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CommieGIR posted:If you can't bother to post without doing this, don't post. If you can't bother to post without implying that the other individual wants to hug and kiss every person at 1/6, don't post.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:13
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Cow Bell posted:If you can't bother to post without implying that the other individual wants to hug and kiss every person at 1/6, don't post. That isn't remotely what I said. Either address the argument or stop making up arguments to argue with.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:16
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CommieGIR posted:Agreed. And the ENTIRE point of them marching on the building was to "change the minds" or "stop the vote" so the idea that they were just coming to have a civil discussion as they assaulted police trying to hold them back is not only counterfactual, its outright insane.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:21
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CommieGIR posted:If you can't bother to post without doing this, don't post. This is expressing uncertainty at your claim that the mob would have killed any politician they found (which you seem to believe with 100% certainty). That's not the same as saying that definitely nothing would have happened. It's perfectly reasonable to doubt an absolute claim. You're really misconstruing what other people are saying and making it hard to have an honest conversation about this. CommieGIR posted:That isn't remotely what I said. Either address the argument or stop making up arguments to argue with. Can you please follow your own advice?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:24
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Fister Roboto posted:This is expressing uncertainty at your claim that the mob would have killed any politician they found (which you seem to believe with 100% certainty). That's not the same as saying that definitely nothing would have happened. It's perfectly reasonable to doubt an absolute claim. You're really misconstruing what other people are saying and making it hard to have an honest conversation about this. What is the basis of the claim they would not have killed? Is the idea they were doing stuff like pipe bombs as a silly goof? A ton of people there clearly were just loveable losers, but were the people saying they were there to kill just kidding?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:27
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Fister Roboto posted:Can you please follow your own advice? There's a significant difference between what I am being accused of saying versus what I am calling out in that post, so no.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like even if 99% of them were just good Christians just there for a peaceful talk, it just takes one guy taking it too far for someone to get hurt. Yup, it's this. 99% of them may have been idiots who wouldn't actually hurt anyone, push came to shove. But I have no doubt that there were a handful that might have done something very very very stupid if given the opportunity. Thankfully we never got to find out.
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