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Wondering how you could possibly have a realistic representation of the 1950s-2020s without nation states.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:17
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It's the end of the 90s. In the words of Martin Blank, governments are just public relations theory at this point.HorseLord posted:I'm not going back and forth at all. I'm pointing out that some things are having meaning attributed to them where there is none. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 17:27
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Halloween Jack posted:If it means nothing, why did they bother spending time and money on it? Maybe you should read what I wrote again? I'm not going to rewrite it, so I'll just copy and paste: me posted:
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Jan 7, 2022 17:31
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:here is the highway system of a totally normal and not simulated city  Here's LA from another angle.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But we do know why that’s done: the information is sold to companies looking to increase engagement, customer retention, and/or ad revenue. Metadata is the big market these days and that's really just about your activity on the internet, i.e. existing. And we know that metadata can be used for more than just advertising goods : See Cambridge Analytica and the various elections it was involved in for how such "existing" data can be used for control. But really, how many people can actually describe the process in how this data is used? Even if I directly see an ad or sponsored post on Facebook, I don't immediately go out and buy the product, or even think I do often. We are told this metadata and advertising process generates income, but how often do we knowingly participate. We just know data + ads = profit somehow....It's fairly abstract and most people just assume it works, similar to the humans + fusion = mega power in the matrix.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:34
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HorseLord posted:Maybe you should read what I wrote again? I'm not going to rewrite it, so I'll just copy and paste: 2. You said yourself that Morpheus was spotted in a specific location and that they travel to other specific locations. Why go through the trouble to make everything look like an unnamed City if it isn't one? The characters instantly appear in various locations across the Matrix; why hide that the action is taking place across multiple cities? Why change the names and signs but keep the verbal references to specific places in Chicago and London? 3. Here, I can be a jerk too: HorseLord believes that The Dark Knight Rises is about an alternate timeline where London, NYC, Pittsburgh, and LA are connected into one giant Judge Dredd style megatropolis called Gotham City. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 17:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:here is the highway system of a totally normal and not simulated city That's called a "stack interchange" and they exist in real life. Here's Judge Harry Pregerson Interchange, Los Angeles, USA  What was your point in posting this? Did you think that no such thing would exist in a normal size american city? Or that it defies physics and can't exist irl or something?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:38
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I answered your question and all you had to do was read it.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:40
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Halloween Jack posted:It's the end of the 90s. In the words of Martin Blank, governments are just public relations theory at this point. That's pithy and clever but we're looking at a radical realignment here. Neo is mid-30s GenX as is pretty much every other player in this movie. That means that they would remember the Cold War, the 70s, etc. How does all that look with one Ur-City and a real "end of history"? Growing up in the "Perpetual 90s" would produce very, very different kinds of people then our "real" world did.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:46
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HorseLord posted:I answered your question and all you had to do was read it. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Growing up in the "Perpetual 90s" would produce very, very different kinds of people then our "real" world did.  Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 17:48
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Wondering how you could possibly have a realistic representation of the 1950s-2020s without nation states. its a fictional movie op
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Jan 7, 2022 17:51
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Halloween Jack posted:Your answer is a mix of "it doesn't mean anything" and...bad. Movies are set in one major city using locations from another major city all the time. Even television shows set in a single city are typically ridiculous to the people who live there. They edited out the Sydney Opera House, but the notion that the Wachowskis had to extensively nerd-proof their movie is a strange one. I told you that they spent money on it to make multiple shooting locations look like one story location. Making multiple shooting locations look like one story location matters very, very much, and I have been very, very clear on that. What does not matter is what the name of that story location is. It does not factor into the plot of the movie, the story they are telling could occur in any big city. So they did not choose a name, or choose to include a landmark, because it wouldn't help. This is the last time I will spoonfeed you, because I think needing to do so is depressing. I'm a lot happier when the person at the other end of the internet connection isn't stupid. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 17:54
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precision posted:its a fictional movie op This is what's called a "thought experiment", which is why you have trouble grasping it. heh heh just messin' with ya
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Jan 7, 2022 18:07
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HorseLord posted:What does not matter is what the name of that story location is.
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Jan 7, 2022 18:19
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In this movie, a gamer/coder get cucked by a chad and then got redpilled??
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Jan 7, 2022 18:32
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Jay-V posted:In this movie, a gamer/coder get cucked by a chad and then got redpilled?? our monitors only use 3 colors... red green blue... there's only 3 distinct flavors of doritos and everything else is just a combination of those... nacho cheese salsa verde and cool ranch... RED GREEN BLUE oh gently caress. oh poo poo
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Jan 7, 2022 18:53
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checkplease posted:We just know data + ads = profit somehow....It's fairly abstract and most people just assume it works, similar to the humans + fusion = mega power in the matrix. That's only true in the sense that we don't truly 'know' what's in a bowl of Frosted Flakes. We nonetheless have a pretty good idea. It's not like some big mystery. I think you aren't quite going far enough with this logic, because (under the interpretation that the machines are evil capitalists) what if the machines themselves have no idea whether the matrix works as a power source but are indifferent because the whole thing is a pump-and-dump? The matrix is still 'pre-alpha', effectively vaporware. But, again, this would require the existence of outside investors, a stock market.... Overall, there's no scenario where what Morpheus says in the film(s) 'just' makes sense. There's always some key element missing.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But we do know why that’s done: the information is sold to companies looking to increase engagement, customer retention, and/or ad revenue. The machines don't feed off human emotions. The "exiles" are refugees fleeing deletion, not deliberate exports from the machine world into the human one. These are really basic mistakes you're making, and that you'll keep making for as long as you insist that all the characters are incurably moronic, the machines aren't really people and just do things arbitrarily, etc. There's a joke I've always loved: A professor of economics and a few of his students are walking and talking along a college campus. One student suddenly points down off the path and says "look, professor, a twenty dollar bill!" The professor says "nonsense, if there had been money dropped there someone else would have picked it up by now." In fact production processes, despite hypothetically being as efficient as can be, frequently deadlock and stagnate until class struggle, specifically, forces them to revolutionize themselves. The Architect's obfuscatory matrix came after several ruinous, costly disasters and was able to remain stable for something like eight loops. Why change a winning formula? Well, because it lost. Once they had to make do with fewer people, the machines discovered all along that they could wring out much more juice per inmate with the Analyst's manipulative matrix. This stuff is right out of Marx.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:46
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I really want to like this but I don't. Like most people in this thread, I'm totally here for the meta poo poo. When they explicitly talk about Warner Bros early on, I was loving it. But my problem is that the movie ultimately betrays the point of the metanarrative. The first act has Lana pretty openly complain about the crass commercialisation of the movie studios (and specifically WB), and that she doesn't want to make another movie but feels forced into it by the thread that WB will just go on ahead without her. That to Lana, The Matrix was important to her a long time ago but now she just wants to move on with her life. That we shouldn't be milking existing IP for all they're worth and making new art instead. Then, at the end of the film, Lana has acquiesced entirely to the studio's wishes. Half way through the movie, during the embarrassing fight scene with the Merv's goons that looked like a particularly high-budget episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and included a recreation of the final fight from the Matrix 1 with handy cuts from the original film to remind you how dramatically better that looked), I realised what this movie was reminding me of: a feature length pilot episode of a Matrix TV series like Stargate SG1 or something. It's got everything - a new, younger crew and lead who can carry the majority of the new series. A handful of your old favourites who will probably only be making cameos from now on (and likely finally die at the end of the first season). Plot reasons for why some of the old characters were recast as new, younger (cheaper) actors. A reset of the narrative allowing the dynamic of the original (our heroes fighting a machine civilisation keeping humanity in a Matrix) to return. An overriding feeling of cheapness and an aesthetic flattening much better suited to rapid production. Now, obviously this movie isn't actually leading into a TV series, at least not directly. But the vibe is still there, a setup for eternal franchising. Tbh I don't even directly have that much of a problem with that - I enjoy the MCU and if they made a Matrix TV show I'd probably watch it. But it's disappointing that something that was the pretty singular work of two creators was now set up for that by one of those creators. And especially when she spent the first half hour of the film complaining about it! Someone compared this movie to the Evangelion Rebuild movies, and I can't really agree. They're both very meta, but the Eva Rebuilds were absolutely the personal films Anno ultimately wanted to make with little concern for commercialism (probably capital would have preferred not to have a decade-long gap between instalments) and definitively ends the story at the end. Some people can always spin off, or prequel, or reboot it or something, but as final a stamp was put on the franchise as Anno could manage. Meanwhile Lana squirmed and complained but ultimately did the studio's bidding. If you really want to go down the "it's bad on purpose" rabbithole (like Alice, natch), it should be "Lana complained about having to make the movie and then purposely handed WB a poo poo film to try and stop any further sequels". As an aside, I do find it odd that with all the transchat recently no one mentioned what seemed to be a pretty clear trans allegory in the movie? I speak as a cis guy but it seemed obvious to me. The important line is when Trinity asks Neo if he based the character in his game on himself and he says he did. This film seems to me to be Lana saying "back when I wrote The Matrix I thought I was self-inserting myself as the badass male lead. But now, having transitioned, I now realise that I actually had been self-inserting myself as the badass female lead." So that's why Trinity becomes the new The One and the new protagonist of The Matrix, and then they play the RATM track sung by a woman now.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:18
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Alchenar posted:
Maps have had edges for years, it's nothing new. They probably didn't unlock the rest of the game world, lol Owlofcreamcheese posted:here is the highway system of a totally normal and not simulated city moths posted:
HorseLord posted:That's called a "stack interchange" and they exist in real life. Here's Judge Harry Pregerson Interchange, Los Angeles, USA I remember this was posted somewhere on SA; it's the Qianchun Interchange in China that's basically just a rollercoaster hundreds of feet in the air for cars: 
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Jan 7, 2022 20:22
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Ferrinus posted:The machines don't feed off human emotions. The "exiles" are refugees fleeing deletion, not deliberate exports from the machine world into the human one. These are really basic mistakes you're making, and that you'll keep making for as long as you insist that all the characters are incurably moronic, the machines aren't really people and just do things arbitrarily, etc. Well, let's take a break for a moment and go back to my interpretation (which is, of course, the Zizekian one). We actually have some good evidence that Lana Wachowski has at least read some Zizek, because here's Zizek writing about Matrix 1 back in October of 1999: "One could effectively claim that the agent Smith (let us not forget: not a human being as others, but the direct virtual embodiment of the Matrix - the big Other - itself) is the stand-in for the figure of the analyst within the universe of the film: his lesson is that the experience of an insurmountable obstacle is the positive condition for us, humans, to perceive something as reality - reality is ultimately that which resists." (My italics.) Zizek is here referring to Smith's monologue, about how there is a debate among the machines. Some believe that humans crave perfection but "I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery." Skip ahead to the year 2021, and we have a a character literally called The Analyst who entirely agrees with the original Smith: "What validates and makes your fictions real? Feelings. [...] It works just like this. Oh, no! Can you stop the bullet? If only you could move faster. [chuckles] Here’s the thing about feelings. They’re so much easier to control than facts. Turns out, in my Matrix, the worse we treat you, the more we manipulate you, the more energy you produce." So we must actually read this very carefully, because what The Analyst is saying is that the psychic 'energy' extracted from the humans is fed back into the matrix itself, strengthening the reality of the fictional world. What is he producing is the reality itself. So we're back to the point that the machines exist to purely to serve as God or gods for mankind. "Just give the people what they want, right?"
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Jan 7, 2022 21:11
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HorseLord posted:I told you that they spent money on it to make multiple shooting locations look like one story location. You're getting weirdly wound up about something which isn't ultimately that OTT a claim. This is a movie about an artificial, fake place. To make it look extra artificial identifying landmarks were removed. This gives the city a kind of late capitalist anyplace feel, and the imagery of 'the dream world' as never-ending series of skyscrapers is similar to films like Dark City or Inception (which both trade in similar themes as the matrix). It could be one city, it could be a specific unnamed American city. The first interpretation fits the theme of 'this is all a video game' but raises in universe questions about how that would work, the second is more 'realistic'(but in this context that has a heavy ???). And then the end of the third movie it appears literally every human in the city/world(?) has been turned into smith and the skies are roiling black so its prob best to get too literal about the exact mechanics of all this.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:22
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I feel like this whole conversation needs to have people distinguish between the OT where the megacity thing is at least arguable and matrix 4 where it's definitely not, they're just living in san francisco. I understand some people are more or less familiar with san francisco, but just trust me on this one
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Jan 7, 2022 21:27
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I think the "Matrix city is a vast arcology" is a cool premise and very cyberpunk but again I just thought that they were in 1999. I guess we'll just go with it, since tbh I never considered what it would be like for the world to perpetually stay in the year 2000 forever. I assume the machines sanded off the worst neolib excesses and there's no NAFTA (since there's no place to move the jobs) or global warming and the actual logistics of their world are far, far different from what they appear on the surface.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:35
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Pictured: definitely not san francisco, more of an anyplace lacking any identifying landmarks  
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Jan 7, 2022 21:39
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Oh I'm not talking about Matrix 4. Yeah it takes place in San Francisco and clearly not in Perpetual 1999. I've had family in Oakland and flown in there probably half a dozen times.
Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 21:41
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No Mods No Masters posted:Pictured: definitely not san francisco, more of an anyplace lacking any identifying landmarks Would this be Matrix 7.0 or 8.0? Because re-watching the first Matrix, I was amused by how thoroughly they made it just some city. Since it's a completely artificial world, the machines can just make it an amalgam of late 20th century human culture and just keep it there forever, especially when it's reset every time a new One appears.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:45
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No Mods No Masters posted:Pictured: definitely not san francisco, more of an anyplace lacking any identifying landmarks Ya I mentioned that last page massive spider posted:I definitely got the sense in the matrix 1,2,3 that "the city" was portrayed as a kind of anycity megapolis. And in 4 when it starts becoming obviously San Francisco and then Explicitly-Tokyo that was meant to be an indication that this updated version of the matrix is superior, along with not being obviously green tinted.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:49
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The entire 4th movie is a “goof”.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:54
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Any thoughts on this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMQFdZMoHyI Apparently the movie is beautiful as it puts so much focus on trans people and how detransitioning is bad.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"What validates and makes your fictions real? Feelings. [...] It works just like this. Oh, no! Can you stop the bullet? If only you could move faster. [chuckles] Here’s the thing about feelings. They’re so much easier to control than facts. Turns out, in my Matrix, the worse we treat you, the more we manipulate you, the more energy you produce." No, he's not talking about psychic 'energy'. He's talking about literal energy, measured in joules or calories, as might be delivered a battery AKA a "coppertop". The analyst is actually talking about how humans are made to serve machines. What you're saying is in plain contradiction with the films as they stand. Earlier you said that the electricity crackling around Neo and Trinity as they used "The One" powers to destroy their restraints was a magical aura actually emanating from the humans' palms or something, but the Matrix is a science fiction film. I've also read Zizek, but, to quote the giant alien brain from Courage the Cowardly Dog, now that I have kindness, I know what not to be! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 22:39
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First hour was kinda cool in a meta way but the rest was kinda boring and didn't make much sense. Can't tell if the movie is just supposed to be bad ironically? Am I the sheeple?
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Jan 7, 2022 23:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:here is the highway system of a totally normal and not simulated city Yeah American highways are more dystopian than that irl. It should have 20 lanes and a constant traffic jam.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:44
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:here is the highway system of a totally normal and not simulated city …yes?
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Jan 7, 2022 23:46
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punk rebel ecks posted:Any thoughts on this? Are the Witchowskis trans Tyler Perry?
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Jan 7, 2022 23:48
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a7m2 posted:https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2021-09-17-the-matrix-online-interview-ben-chamberlain And wonderfully enough, this revealed to me my strongest Mandela Effect I've ever encountered: I thought Marc Laidlaw (Half-Life writer) was the person hired to write The Matrix Online's plot. Thought this so strongly that it's all I've ever said since the game came out. Woof. From that article... quote:"No developer had any illusion anything we did would ever be known or taken to heart by the larger public; that's just not the way game stories were regarded." DaveKap fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 00:36
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Comrade Fakename posted:I realised what this movie was reminding me of: a feature length pilot episode of a Matrix TV series like Stargate SG1 or something. It's got everything - a new, younger crew and lead who can carry the majority of the new series. A handful of your old favourites who will probably only be making cameos from now on (and likely finally die at the end of the first season). Plot reasons for why some of the old characters were recast as new, younger (cheaper) actors. A reset of the narrative allowing the dynamic of the original (our heroes fighting a machine civilisation keeping humanity in a Matrix) to return. An overriding feeling of cheapness and an aesthetic flattening much better suited to rapid production. this is what i was thinking as well. with COVID and everything i think it's entirely possible that lana or WB or both were at some point considering turning it into more of a mini series thing like sense8
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Jan 8, 2022 00:43
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except that sense8 didn't look nearly this cheap lmao
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Jan 8, 2022 00:43
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Was Neo's new power getting people to pull their punches? I swear there was a bit where Elon Smith was "punching" him but clearly missing by at least a foot.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:00
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Was Neo's new power getting people to pull their punches? I swear there was a bit where Elon Smith was "punching" him but clearly missing by at least a foot. I mean, he definitely did that to Smith.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:01
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