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Bel Shazar posted:That sounds bad, but we still have slavery right now... Ah, the wise man dril tweet, but without the irony Is there anything more sickeningly privileged and casually cruel than this brand of aloof doomposting?
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Jan 7, 2022 15:02
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steinrokkan posted:I mean Putin, today, who is for all the faults of Kyiv a way worse and regressive autocrat standing in opposition to all modern progressive values than anybody with any chance of gaining power in Ukraine. i don't think putin has anything to do with the side that was opposing actual irl Nazis back in the day, does he? well apart from cynically using whatever legacy and iconography he can get his grubby hands on in order to bolster the legitimacy of the current russian government i *really* wish ex-ussr countries stopped playing right into his hands by trying to counter his ideological plays and ending up glorifying real actual loving nazis. that would be nice. like how nice it was when they removed the plaque for Jonas loving Noreika (the absense of which lasted for all about 2 months or so, but still  ). i don't see why plaques to people like that should be present in centres of capital cities (or anywhere, really)
nurmie fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 15:43
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A situation of facing a threat of external invasion probably isn't the ideal setting for coming to grips with and condemning the problematic aspects of one's nationalism
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Jan 7, 2022 16:02
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Hello old friend https://twitter.com/iaponomarenko/status/1479439297442942984?s=21
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Jan 7, 2022 16:16
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nurmie posted:i don't think putin has anything to do with the side that was opposing actual irl Nazis back in the day, does he? I'm not talking about WWII! I'm saying how would it be better to support Russia over Ukraine today when Russia actually is the terrible dictatorship their propaganda portrays Ukraine as, but on steroids. Playing the "how can we support this country when their government did this" card doesn't work when the alternative is to empower somebody much, much worse on the same issues you claim to care about. "Oh we can't support France against Hitler because of their heinous past with the Dreyfus affair" steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 16:17
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If the 45th guards are deployed it's an invasion. They are putins takeover boys and completely loyal to him. They roll over to Wagner when they're done with their service and train shodd troops into effective fighters.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:23
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nurmie posted:i *really* wish ex-ussr countries stopped playing right into his hands by trying to counter his ideological plays and ending up glorifying real actual loving nazis. that would be nice. like how nice it was when they removed the plaque for Jonas loving Noreika (the absense of which lasted for all about 2 months or so, but still While we're at it, maybe Italy could do the same.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:50
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I don't get why Putin needs to invade Kazakhstan. Unless he has a target of increasing Russia's surface by x size.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:52
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It's not an invasion when the government invites you to bring troops to kill their citizens. See also Syria.
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Jan 7, 2022 16:55
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Yeah, technically this is all within international law.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:02
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alex314 posted:I don't get why Putin needs to invade Kazakhstan. Unless he has a target of increasing Russia's surface by x size. Because the idea of a dictator being overthrown by the people is personal to him?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:06
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It's "brotherly help preventing invasion by NATO and fascism" I wonder how much it will sour perceptions of Russia by ordinary Kazakhs
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Jan 7, 2022 17:07
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alex314 posted:I don't get why Putin needs to invade Kazakhstan. Unless he has a target of increasing Russia's surface by x size. That's why he's not going to invade Kazakhstan.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:14
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FishBulbia posted:Yeah, technically this is all within international law. Dumb, srs question, is there a international law against issuing a shoot to kill order against your own population?
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Jan 7, 2022 17:32
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aphid_licker posted:Dumb, srs question, is there a international law against issuing a shoot to kill order against your own population? As far as I know, it’s only illegal to order army to do that. For an army order, you need to do your homework to designate your population as enemy combatants first.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:48
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steinrokkan posted:I mean Putin, today, who is for all the faults of Kyiv a way worse and regressive autocrat standing in opposition to all modern progressive values than anybody with any chance of gaining power in Ukraine. What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not?
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Jan 7, 2022 18:22
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khwarezm posted:What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not? Not invading other countries would be one off the top. Oh, and not shooting down civilian airliners. Not murdering journalists. Not murdering political opponents with polonium or nerve agents. I mean seriously, what? Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 18:30
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khwarezm posted:What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not? Well, there's LGBT rights and attitudes, where Ukraine is not great, but way ahead of Russia.
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Jan 7, 2022 18:32
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khwarezm posted:What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not? Doesn't murder / kidnap / jail political, LGBT, national minority activists? Doesn't hand out power to local feudal lords a la Kadyrov or the mobsters running the breakaway "republics"? Doesn't have nearly as corrupt legal system designed to ruin lives? Any accusation that can be levied at current day Ukraine, no matter how legitimate, would get worse if replaced with Russian-style puppets, and so would the lives of everybody not acting as an enforcer for the mafia state. E: As we speak Russian military advisors are in Kazakhstan literally helping the government to murder as many protesters as they can get their hands on, and you are asking totally good faith questions such as "how is Russia actually worse" steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 18:34
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steinrokkan posted:Doesn't murder / kidnap / jail political, LGBT, national minority activists? Doesn't hand out power to local feudal lords a la Kadyrov? Doesn't have nearly as corrupt legal system designed to ruin lives? Any accusation that can be levied at current day Ukraine, no matter how legitimate, would get worse if replaced with Russian-style puppets, and so would the lives of everybody not acting as an enforcer for the mafia state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes
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Jan 7, 2022 18:39
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khwarezm posted:I mean, in terms of murder this went down and lets be honest, the neo-Nazis pretty much got away with killing more than 40 people: The fact that this was in 2014 and apparently hasn't been repeated is kind of heartening tho?
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Jan 7, 2022 18:56
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khwarezm posted:I mean, in terms of murder this went down and lets be honest, the neo-Nazis pretty much got away with killing more than 40 people: This really just amplifies how much loving worse Russia is when this is the worst thing Putin apologists can come up with.
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Jan 7, 2022 18:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:As far as I know, it’s only illegal to order army to do that. For an army order, you need to do your homework to designate your population as enemy combatants first. The whole framework is rickety, in my impression? Like when are you illegitimate and can't order the cops to shoot protesters anymore etc, assuming the state apparatus and courts are still on your side
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Jan 7, 2022 18:58
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aphid_licker posted:The fact that this was in 2014 and apparently hasn't been repeated is kind of heartening tho? From the article he posted it's not even clear how the fire started, with gunmen shooting into the crowd from the roof and tossing molotovs down. Plus the 'neo-nazis' mentioned couldn't even win a seat in parliament arent in government. As opposed to Putin, who rather is.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:00
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khwarezm posted:I mean, in terms of murder this went down and lets be honest, the neo-Nazis pretty much got away with killing more than 40 people: Never mind the 13,000 people murdered by Putin in Ukraine, or all the war crimes committed by "Wagner" --- wonder why they picked that name in particular! --- all over the place (most recently in central Africa), let's focus on what's largely an accident, and label perpetrators nazis without any evidence. P.S. The memorial rallies for victims of the fire were full of anti-semitic slurs..
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Jan 7, 2022 19:05
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Rust Martialis posted:From the article he posted it's not even clear how the fire started, with gunmen shooting into the crowd from the roof and tossing molotovs down. Idk if I'd go as far as saying that it was fine, it was a p nasty event overall
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Jan 7, 2022 19:07
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khwarezm posted:What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNr7Tln6B7g
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Jan 7, 2022 19:10
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Rust Martialis posted:From the article he posted it's not even clear how the fire started, with gunmen shooting into the crowd from the roof and tossing molotovs down. I remember that, it was on a bunch of live streams. Yeah, somebody took potshots at a crowd of people milling in front of the the building from top of it, then somebody threw a molotov cocktail and the interior caught on fire. The people inside had barricaded the door and didn't let anybody escape through it until it was too late and only people who could escape through the windows and on the roof survived (and people did escape without being killed by the people outside). The eason there were people barricaded inside was that they were from a Russian neo-Nazi group (this can't be stressed enough for irony) that had been beating up people with baseball bats and rocks earlier through the day and were eventually chased inside (which is why some of them were refusing to leave or let anybody else leave). It's disingenuous to claim that it was some kind of premeditated lynching of totally innocent victims (the counterprotesters were camped at the building for a good while before the gunshots escalated the situation), and that the perpetrators got away because the government condoned the attacks rather than because the fire was started by somebody out of a crowd of thousands in the middle of general chaos. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 19:22
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This is the same Russian militia whose members were killed in Odessa, note the insignia on the guy in uniform in the front.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:29
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steinrokkan posted:This is the same Russian militia whose members were killed in Odessa, note the insignia on the guy in uniform in the front. I'm the guy with his arms crossed who is exactly one kangol hat and gold chain away from talking about who or who is not a sucker emcee in the back left.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:44
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aphid_licker posted:The whole framework is rickety, in my impression? Like when are you illegitimate and can't order the cops to shoot protesters anymore etc, assuming the state apparatus and courts are still on your side Basically never, unless run Belarus-tier elections or Poland-tier electoral reforms in the naked eye of the public. Even then, the rules are kind of arbitrary both intrinsically, and because laws work when everyone with power to enforce compliance agrees that the law is necessary, c.f. American Service-Members' Protection Act. If there’s one thing Lavrov et. al. is at least partially correct about, is that the international rules-based order does seek, amongst other things, to provide convenience for political establishments of western countries. No one gets punished for balancing these “optional” decisions, e.g., to sanction Turkey for imprisoning journalists, against their own economic or political interests. Moreover, any such action, say proposing Belarus sanctions for funnelling Middle Easterners into Schengen zone, gets to automatically deserve praise even. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 20:05
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Just asking questions here but is Ukraine (aka HITLERSTAN) actually comprised of fields of shaved head thugs gargling the blood of Russian children, cackling as the burning corpses of Russian office clerks turn to ash? Making mockery of all that is good and holy? Makes me have my doubts that backing them against Putin is the wisest choice to be made, but I just want confirmation here before I jump to conclusions.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:18
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khwarezm posted:What are the progressive values that Ukraine has shown itself to safeguard that Russia does not? Free elections, freedom of the press, freedom of LGBT people Russia has put people in prison for the formal crime of "insulting the feelings of believers" which involved a couple posting a picture of them pretending to engage in oral sex in front of a church and employed neonazis to kill journalists (Google the BORN case) Supporting fragile democratic countries helps the progressives in those countries, otherwise they could fall to far right forces. Just like Russia did after not getting sufficient support in the 90s Now that you got a honest answer, could you tell us what is your view of Joseph Stalin? Particularly on these forums seems like people most concerned about the nazis in Ukraine can be best described as politics role-players who pretend to support the guy that helped start world war 2 and kept sending hitler oil and resources until the day he invaded the Soviet Union and killed millions of people  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2022 20:21
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Shaved heads isn't proper for Ukrainians. Now almost-shaved heads with an oseledetz, that's proper:
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Jan 7, 2022 20:23
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Somaen posted:Free elections, freedom of the press, freedom of LGBT people I've got no love for Stalin at all but I think its ridiculous to hold him responsible for helping to start World War 2 when the Soviet Union was easily the most important combatant against the Nazis and had made attempts to build a united front with the Western powers before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact but had been blown off by them in favour of the Munich agreement.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:43
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khwarezm posted:I've got no love for Stalin at all but I think its ridiculous to hold him responsible for helping to start World War 2 when the Soviet Union was easily the most important combatant against the Nazis and had made attempts to build a united front with the Western powers before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact but had been blown off by them in favour of the Munich agreement. It wasn't Stalin doing the fighting. It was Soviet people doing fighting against the German army fueled by oil Stalin gave them.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:51
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Winning the war after retroactively absolves allying with him in the first place leading to the invasions of Poland and France which created the conditions for invading the Soviet Union huh? So you're not against allying with nazis in principle
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Jan 7, 2022 20:53
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khwarezm posted:I've got no love for Stalin at all but I think its ridiculous to hold him responsible for helping to start World War 2 when the Soviet Union was easily the most important combatant against the Nazis and had made attempts to build a united front with the Western powers before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact but had been blown off by them in favour of the Munich agreement.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:57
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aphid_licker posted:Dumb, srs question, is there a international law against issuing a shoot to kill order against your own population? It... depends. IANAL but as far as I have understood there is no universal human rights law governing the whole world but there are international conventions such as the European Convention of Human Rights, under which that would be illegal unless there was a "war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation". So in some cases it would be considered lawful, but just the government calling protestors as foreign terrorists is not enough. There was a famous case during the Greek military junta, called inventively as 'the Greek Case', in which the European Commission of Human Rights found the junta's claims of an imminent communist coup to be bullshit and no excuse for torture, illegal deportations and imprisonments and other breaches of rights. The junta then responded like adults by withdrawing Greece from the European Commission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_case Now, almost all European countries have ratified the convention, including Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Only Belarus and Kosovo stand out as not being part of the system. Kazakhstan is not part of any European treaties so the European Court of Human Rights doesn't have jurisdiction there. Russia has also recently expressed opinions that if the court doesn't let them ignore the convention then they will withdraw from it. There's more human rights conventions, and I'm sure that even Kazakhstan is member to some of them. At the very least the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is not a convention and therefore not binding de jure, but at this point it is considered the universal standard de facto. United Nation's International Court of Justice could handle the case probably, but like in Yugoslavia it can be difficult to get national and military leaders to court against their will unless the regime changes to one favourable to solving the cases.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:02
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Grape posted:I'm the guy with his arms crossed who is exactly one kangol hat and gold chain away from talking about who or who is not a sucker emcee in the back left. there's at least 3 of these guys in the background
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Jan 7, 2022 21:36
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