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Xtronoc
Aug 29, 2004
Pillbug

nutri_void posted:

I will never not find it funny that you people have to do CLEs about substance abuse
I will also never not find it funny (and sad) that CLE is the tool of choice for the profession to deploy against substance abuse

It's window dressing. "Our profession is terrible at substance abuse but hey this year we made them do a class on it that doesn't at all address the root of the issues hope it helps tia"

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Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

bone shaking.
soul baking.
Reminds me of when a gip goon’s armywife punched her ticket one of the first things big army wanted to know was whether or not she had completed her annual suicide awareness training.

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.
hahahahaha so much for that "global peace" or whatever the Sackler family wanted

https://portal.ct.gov/AG/Press-Rele...rdue-Bankruptcy

e: opinions are free to read as always but I'm too lazy to find a host for a 140 page pdf. SDNY, 7:21-cv-07532-CM

Soothing Vapors fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 17, 2021

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Soothing Vapors posted:

hahahahaha so much for that "global peace" or whatever the Sackler family wanted

https://portal.ct.gov/AG/Press-Rele...rdue-Bankruptcy

e: opinions are free to read as always but I'm too lazy to find a host for a 140 page pdf. SDNY, 7:21-cv-07532-CM

also the ruling says they can never get global peace (in the second circuit, if the ruling stands on appeal which is iffy)

having to read a 140 page decision as soon as I got home: not great

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

i don’t know why you would put a litigator on your criminal trial jury and then try to impeach the witness with a tiny trivial inconsistency in an email you say they wrote the next day (and don’t let the jury see, because it’s hearsay) when you should realize that you have just informed the litigator that email backs up their story 99.9%

also now that I have been on a jury the rule against hearsay is kind of dumb in practice especially because the jury is not informed about it or why things they hear that are obviously relevant to credibility are not shown to them because they then assume it’s bad for someone but can easily get wrong who it’s bad for

also holy hell criminal defendants should not testify

evilweasel fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 18, 2021

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

evilweasel posted:


also holy hell criminal defendants should not testify

I think they should unless you can came up with a good, individualized reason why they shouldn't.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


ENFORCE THE UNITED STATES DRESS CODE AT ALL COSTS!

This message paid for by the Men's Wearhouse& Jos A Bank Lobbying Group

joat mon posted:

I think they should unless you can came up with a good, individualized reason why they shouldn't.

Ya the only people I've ever heard say "never let a defendant testify" are non criminal attorneys.

To be clear sometimes it is a VERY bad idea. But in most situations, a jury wants to hear from a defendant, hear them deny it, hear their reason. Sometimes the defendant is the only one with the complete picture.

Again, huge caveat that this does not all the time. If your client is gonna blame his spouse for the beating he gave her, probably don't.

Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Dec 18, 2021

BigHead
Jul 25, 2003
Huh?


Nap Ghost

evilweasel posted:

i don’t know why you would put a litigator on your criminal trial jury and then try to impeach the witness with a tiny trivial inconsistency in an email you say they wrote the next day (and don’t let the jury see, because it’s hearsay) when you should realize that you have just informed the litigator that email backs up their story 99.9%

also now that I have been on a jury the rule against hearsay is kind of dumb in practice especially because the jury is not informed about it or why things they hear that are obviously relevant to credibility are not shown to them because they then assume it’s bad for someone but can easily get wrong who it’s bad for

also holy hell criminal defendants should not testify

If you know it's hearsay and you know the other side is going to object, always 100% offer it into evidence loudly in front of the jury so they see it's the other guys who are hiding evidence.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

evilweasel posted:


also holy hell criminal defendants should not testify

I watched a murder trial recently where the defendant testified and it resulted in a not guilty verdict (self defense).

Whole thing was on video start to finish and it would've been a slam dunk conviction but the dude had *great* presence and really sold it to the jury and it worked.

The hilarious thing about it was that the defense attorney (a friend of mine) had virtually no idea how to do direct exam and the prosecutor had no goddam idea at all how to do cross.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Pook Good Mook posted:

Ya the only people I've ever heard say "never let a defendant testify" are non criminal attorneys.

To be clear sometimes it is a VERY bad idea. But in most situations, a jury wants to hear from a defendant, hear them deny it, hear their reason. Sometimes the defendant is the only one with the complete picture.

Again, huge caveat that this does not all the time. If your client is gonna blame his spouse for the beating he gave her, probably don't.

In the case I was a juror on the defendants direct testimony was devastating to him. The cross was basically “just repeat that all again, please.”

Perhaps if he had been a better liar it might have worked but he had such brazen and unbelievable lies that the defense closing kept suggesting we could disregard his testimony.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Given that, incidentally, my strong suspicion is the defendant testified against the advice of his lawyer.

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020
The jury has to hear from the defendant for claims of self defense (not literally). Other than that it can be a very humanizing process thats probably only worth it if your client has some serious personality and storytelling upside.

Kalman
Jan 17, 2010

I saw it be effective in a case where there was one serious charge (distribution) and two lessers (possession, open intox); the goal of the defendant testifying was to get him off of the distribution charge by giving the jury an alternative story/portraying him as an ordinary person. It worked, and I’m not sure it would have had he decided not to testify.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


ENFORCE THE UNITED STATES DRESS CODE AT ALL COSTS!

This message paid for by the Men's Wearhouse& Jos A Bank Lobbying Group

evilweasel posted:

Given that, incidentally, my strong suspicion is the defendant testified against the advice of his lawyer.

I'm sure you're right.

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009

My general experience has been that typically (but not always of course) the more a defendant insists on testifying the higher chance they gently caress themselves. Clients who have a good defense but not good enough to get a dismissal pre-trial tend to be pretty scared about it and hope they don't have to take the stand. I'd say of the cases where a client of mine testified to their own benefit most of them required a lot of work to get them to not be complete nervous wrecks on the stand, which juries mostly assume means guilt rather than having sat through court for months and seeing how little justice actually occurs and being worried about what is going to happen when its your turn. The number of completely innocent people I've had to talk out of taking plea bargains because they had no faith in the system and the facts of their case meant the state was worried about losing and thus gave a good plea deal is depressing, and much moreso when you realize that most defense attorneys think a client willing to plea is the end of the case.

But yes, in general if you don't have a very good reason to testify, don't.

And also the rule against hearsay is horrible in practice, if you object on it the jury just thinks you're trying to hide something and assumes something much worse than the actual testimony would be 99% of the time. It's one of the worst things newbie defense attorneys do is yell out OBJECTION HEARSAY every time they can and then look around for their cookie, and I swear a lot of public defenders offices them to do this.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!

I liked having clients testify in involuntary committals because the attorney general and the doctor from the state hospital were assholes. .

Tokelau All Star fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 21, 2021

EwokEntourage
Jun 10, 2008

BREYER: Actually, Antonin, you got it backwards. See, a power bottom is actually generating all the dissents by doing most of the work.

SCALIA: Stephen, I've heard that speed has something to do with it.

BREYER: Speed has everything to do with it.

nutri_void posted:

I will never not find it funny that you people have to do CLEs about substance abuse
I will also never not find it funny (and sad) that CLE is the tool of choice for the profession to deploy against substance abuse

CLEs make sense from a theory point of view. A lot of people that come into Alcoholics Anonymous had never heard of it before someone told them about / took them to a meeting. And a lot of people are incredibly uninformed / misinformed about mental health treatment, resources available, etc. Convincing people that they could—gasp—be a person with a problem and that—gasp—it’s okay to get help is very difficult

From a practical standpoint CLEs may not be super effective but if you suffer from addiction issues than statistically you are hosed anyways

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi
Do any of you guys have good resources/suggestions on how to best write an expert opinion/report for a medmal case? I've found some examples/resources, but was curious if you guys had suggestions. This is my first. :ohdear:

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009

Did the people paying you not tell you how they want it? Ask them. They’re the ones whose opinions matter here.

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.
100% what SlothBear said. Ask them, but not in writing. Have a zoom call and share your screen if you want to show them a draft, but don't e-mail drafts around.

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi

SlothBear posted:

Did the people paying you not tell you how they want it? Ask them. They’re the ones whose opinions matter here.

Soothing Vapors posted:

100% what SlothBear said. Ask them, but not in writing. Have a zoom call and share your screen if you want to show them a draft, but don't e-mail drafts around.

Duh, will do. Thanks guys.

Phil Moscowitz
Feb 19, 2007

If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!
And bill them for it

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

"At [firm], we are deeply committed to advancing mental well-being in our industry, as well as continuing to raise awareness and implement new measures to meet the needs of our greatest asset – our people.

Have you ever questioned why we drink the way we do? Have you been thinking about your own drinking habits? Join this session, led by [Dr. Distinguished], to explore the “sober spectrum,” the benefits of being "sober sometimes," as well as ideas for transforming mindless drinking into mindful drinking.

This will be a Listen & Learn session with cameras off and the ability to join anonymously, so you can confidently join with any questions you may have."

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

I admit to sometimes feeling sober-curious

Whitlam
Aug 2, 2014

Some goons overreact. Go figure.
I'm not so much "sober sometimes" as "sober occasionally". What does that get me?

Nice piece of fish
Jan 29, 2008

Ultra Carp

Whitlam posted:

I'm not so much "sober sometimes" as "sober occasionally". What does that get me?

Cirrhosis

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Soothing Vapors posted:

100% what SlothBear said. Ask them, but not in writing. Have a zoom call and share your screen if you want to show them a draft, but don't e-mail drafts around.

The rules have changed to allow you to send drafts to lawyers but like you I don’t quite remember the exact details so I tend to default to this :v:

But if you want to send a draft just call them and ask what the lawyers want to do it’s their job not to gently caress up what is discoverable, not the experts.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Vox Nihili posted:

"At [firm], we are deeply committed to advancing mental well-being in our industry, as well as continuing to raise awareness and implement new measures to meet the needs of our greatest asset – our people.

Have you ever questioned why we drink the way we do? Have you been thinking about your own drinking habits? Join this session, led by [Dr. Distinguished], to explore the “sober spectrum,” the benefits of being "sober sometimes," as well as ideas for transforming mindless drinking into mindful drinking.

This will be a Listen & Learn session with cameras off and the ability to join anonymously, so you can confidently join with any questions you may have."

this sounds like a session to pressure you into drinking

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Vox Nihili posted:

I admit to sometimes feeling sober-curious

I'm sober divergent every Fri after 5

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

evilweasel posted:

this sounds like a session to pressure you into drinking

I got roped into "mentoring" some law students recently

Their year had been hell of course because school during covid

Apparently their law school's approach to remedying this was just to give them like daily "self care" lectures. Take care of yourself! It's on you! We aren't gonna tell you how!

Phil Moscowitz
Feb 19, 2007

If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!
Mindful drinking. Namaste

EwokEntourage
Jun 10, 2008

BREYER: Actually, Antonin, you got it backwards. See, a power bottom is actually generating all the dissents by doing most of the work.

SCALIA: Stephen, I've heard that speed has something to do with it.

BREYER: Speed has everything to do with it.

quote:

Have you ever questioned why we drink the way we do?

quote:

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

evilweasel posted:

The rules have changed to allow you to send drafts to lawyers but like you I don’t quite remember the exact details so I tend to default to this :v:


Oh yeah? Man i gotta start doing CLE

E: lol quoted the wrong post

Soothing Vapors fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jan 9, 2022

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi

quote:

Hello,

Usually what we do is have a conversation about your findings and if it is supportive we will discuss drafting the report. Thanks!

Best,
N

Is what he sent back when I asked for money upfront to review the records.

That's...not normal, right? I'm not spending my time reviewing a bunch of medical records for free.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

bone shaking.
soul baking.

Residency Evil posted:

Is what he sent back when I asked for money upfront to review the records.

That's...not normal, right? I'm not spending my time reviewing a bunch of medical records for free.

It is not uncommon in medmal in FL for doctors to have a variable fee schedule. It’s necessary to get an expert report presuit in FL medmal. Doctors will charge a smaller rate to review the records and see if there’s a case first. There’s a flat rate for records review with an hourly rate (with minimum call times) to discuss the case and see if it merits further pursuit for some while others just charge a flat rate. If, after discussion, the lawyer feels there’s a case, they’ll pay the additional fee for the written report and file suit.

You should bill for the record review and call. They’ll pay you more for you to draft a report if it’s needed. At least that’s what I would do. Don’t review poo poo for free, and I don’t expect any decent lawfirm would want you to, either.

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi

Mr. Nice! posted:

It is not uncommon in medmal in FL for doctors to have a variable fee schedule. It’s necessary to get an expert report presuit in FL medmal. Doctors will charge a smaller rate to review the records and see if there’s a case first. There’s a flat rate for records review with an hourly rate (with minimum call times) to discuss the case and see if it merits further pursuit for some while others just charge a flat rate. If, after discussion, the lawyer feels there’s a case, they’ll pay the additional fee for the written report and file suit.

You should bill for the record review and call. They’ll pay you more for you to draft a report if it’s needed. At least that’s what I would do. Don’t review poo poo for free, and I don’t expect any decent lawfirm would want you to, either.

That was his response to a 4 hour minimum retainer for initial review.

Everyone tells me to demand payment for that upfront. Is that wrong?

Arcturas
Mar 30, 2011

Tell him your standard practice before evaluating a set of records is to have a retainer of at least four hours' time, and that you'll bill it at an hourly rate of $XXX/hr (say, $500).

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi

Arcturas posted:

Tell him your standard practice before evaluating a set of records is to have a retainer of at least four hours' time, and that you'll bill it at an hourly rate of $XXX/hr (say, $500).

Thanks, I’ll send that message again.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

I happened to be looking at the website for the US District Court for the District of New Jersey. I noticed it had a "Notable Cases" dropdown.

It has only two entries:

1) Hurricane Sandy cases (makes sense)
2) UNITED STATES v. BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN

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Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


ENFORCE THE UNITED STATES DRESS CODE AT ALL COSTS!

This message paid for by the Men's Wearhouse& Jos A Bank Lobbying Group

evilweasel posted:

I happened to be looking at the website for the US District Court for the District of New Jersey. I noticed it had a "Notable Cases" dropdown.

It has only two entries:

1) Hurricane Sandy cases (makes sense)
2) UNITED STATES v. BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN

Isn't that the one where they completely botched it and had to dismiss it? They charged him with DUI when his BAC was at .02.

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