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I mean, I don't think a preponderance of the people who have died believed in Coyote or fairies, so it probably doesn't work quite like that.
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Jan 8, 2022 06:50
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Sure, that's just an example with made-up numbers. But it doesn't get a lot better if they say "it works, but we don't know why and it might just stop working for reasons we don't understand".
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Jan 8, 2022 06:55
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"Science" isn't the word for what the Shadow Men are attempting, but then again, nowhere in the comic was it ever claimed that it is. Inferring a "science vs. magic" dichotomy here is wholly on the reader, not the author. Not my observation but I wanted to echo its significance. This is all epistemology.
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Jan 8, 2022 08:44
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I think something important to note is that the comic has implied on multiple occasions that retroactive changes are possible. It's not just "this dog can gently caress with reality so that gravity no work anymore", it's "this dog can gently caress with reality so that the court never existed". That's a really huge thing to leave unchecked and I can see why they'd want to prevent it from happening. Jones outright says this. She didn't exist, but she did. She remembers existing, and the planet certainly remembers her, but humans supposedly made her long afterward. She also remembers the stars in the sky, even if multiple creatures claim to have put them there eons later.  And in the next couple of comics after it, Jones points out that Coyote was deliberately trying to get Annie to know this, and to put two and two together that the court is loving with the Ether. The person who has control over the Ether has control over literally everything - past, present, and future. This is also foreshadowed in some ways with Kat's tiktok chapter, imo. She apparently comes to the Norns on many occasions. To what end? To exert control over time, apparently. Why the Norns allow her is an interesting question. I think she's supposed to be kind of a parallel to the Court, with similar questions about the ether and similar attempts to control it. Also, I'm guessing that Aata's motivations =/= the court's motivations. It's very possible the court would love to manipulate the Ether so that they are the most important government entity in the world, they have way more power than they do now, and they can create a foundation to systematically cage up every ether-loving weirdo animal. You could call it the Screwy Creature Prison foundation. Aata wants to understand everything that can be understood, and for things that cannot be understood, make them understandable. And the Court wants to harness it. To what end? We're not sure yet, but they wanted Coyote's power for it. Aata may have participated in that, but I'm wondering if he didn't realize the extent of what the Court might do with it. But we really don't know enough about the Court's structure to say that, I guess, because... why the hell would we know those things after almost 20 years of comic I guess,
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Jan 8, 2022 08:56
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a really really major problem here is, as the smallest myers just indicated, we don't know enough about the court or the shadow men or even much of any particular people deep in its workings to really determine if the court is making a serious leap to a conclusion or if it's simply the writing losing track of itself to be quite honest i know which way i lean (i will attribute to 'bad writing' in gunnerkrigg's case 99% of the time) but i guess it could be the other way but also absolutely lol that aata's deal was 'we can't control it? then BURN IT ALL' despite having come so close to enlightenment that he can casually heal giant holes in people
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Jan 8, 2022 09:47
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Also this did explain why shell and aata were so petulant about the failure of their plan to hijack coyote. I bet they really thought they had finally managed to pull one over the etheric bullshit with Omega, and then...
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Jan 8, 2022 11:24
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, do we know why the speed of light is what it is? I think the Shadow Men would be satisfied with that, or gravity, or postulates.
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Jan 8, 2022 14:41
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Bongo Bill posted:"Inferring a "science vs. magic" dichotomy here is wholly on the reader, not the author. I wouldn’t go that far. Go back one/two pages and look at how Shell is comparing the ether with the laws of nature, or Arthur’s new body. Yeah, she doesn’t technically say the word ‘science’ specifically but how else are you supposed to read it.
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Jan 8, 2022 14:44
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Bell_ posted:The speed of light is a constant; it doesn't change arbitrarily at the whim of some rear end in a top hat god.  C is a constant, the speed of light varies depending on the medium
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Jan 8, 2022 15:14
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Thank you, TIL
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Jan 8, 2022 15:34
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, do we know why the speed of light is what it is? It falls out of solving the fundamental equations of electro-magnetism and assuming that the universe makes sense in all reference frames. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msVuCEs8Ydo Why the fundamental constants are what they are, I don't think we know.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:41
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Snake Maze posted:I wouldn’t go that far. Go back one/two pages and look at how Shell is comparing the ether with the laws of nature, or Arthur’s new body. Yeah, she doesn’t technically say the word ‘science’ specifically but how else are you supposed to read it. Because science isn't the laws of nature and technology, it's a method of how you study and observe those laws. Rejecting a system you know exists but can't understand isn't scientific in the slightest, but entirely in-keeping with someone who wants the world to be rigorously calculable. Uthor posted:Why the fundamental constants are what they are, I don't think we know. That's kind of looking at it the wrong way round. Asking why the planck length is the size it is is like asking why the number 1 is the size it is. The fundamental constant is the standard everything else is measured by.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:02
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"why are fundamental constants the way they are and not another value" is a valid scientific question as well as "what would a universe look like with different values for said constants"
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Jan 8, 2022 20:24
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Tiny Myers posted:This is also foreshadowed in some ways with Kat's tiktok chapter, imo. She apparently comes to the Norns on many occasions. To what end? To exert control over time, apparently. Why the Norns allow her is an interesting question. I think she's supposed to be kind of a parallel to the Court, with similar questions about the ether and similar attempts to control it. The Norns seem to be letting her because the alternative of not letting her is much worse. There is some implication in that chapter that, in the original timeline where Annie died, Kat went completely bugfuck and did something terrible. The Norns tell her she's saving herself as well as Annie by sending the bird back in time.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:02
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idonotlikepeas posted:The Norns seem to be letting her because the alternative of not letting her is much worse. There is some implication in that chapter that, in the original timeline where Annie died, Kat went completely bugfuck and did something terrible. The Norns tell her she's saving herself as well as Annie by sending the bird back in time. why not just tell her that, then? its a pretty simple explanation!
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Jan 8, 2022 21:24
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She asks directly and they say they can't tell her what happened. It's not clear why they can't, but we'll probably get to that eventually.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:31
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Screw you Reynard. If a system is inherently broken, the lower caste has a right to be "jealous". "Maybe you just want to topple the king because you're jealous. of his grandeur!"
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Jan 10, 2022 09:11
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Yeah don't take that poo poo from a spirit wolf who possesses and murders people, gently caress that guy.
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Jan 10, 2022 09:56
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scrub_quotes.txt
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Jan 10, 2022 10:28
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So the shadow men just want humanity to be able to exist in a place where they don't have to deal with constant magical bullshit? Seems reasonable.
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Jan 10, 2022 10:45
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I've remarked before that I think the comic did Coyote's characterisation a disservice by only having him kill only unnamed characters or wreak mainly off-page chaos likewise Loup the conceptual stuff is hard to digest when even Loup is not presented as being sufficiently capricious or repellent
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Jan 10, 2022 12:31
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lol Shell. You gonna lobotomise Kat for being too smart too? This is some dumb petty loving thinking.Space Cadet Omoly posted:So the shadow men just want humanity to be able to exist in a place where they don't have to deal with constant magical bullshit? Seems reasonable. Just all the other bullshit with less ways for anyone to do poo poo about it. *looks outside* Great.
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Jan 10, 2022 12:48
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This thread and its constant bickering...
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Jan 10, 2022 13:09
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Shell being the primary non-teenager in the conversation mostly monologuing while having such an angry>accusing>sad>angry>idolizing>doe-eyed>dismissive>mopey>angry>spiteful angsty teenage moment in a very short span of time, I can't blame Reynard after she throws shade at him at the end of her rant for going "hey, back up, chill, and think a second". It's a very soft pulled punch in comparison, and perhaps what she needs to hear. Maybe it was kind of a jerk move by Rey, but Shell's overly stylized facial expressions art wise aren't really helping her case right now, even if maybe that's the point or something else entirely. Hard to say without seeing another page or however many it takes. I guess it was some good exposition to be honest, and it feels like that is what Shell's weird lens of a character was designed for if not more.
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Jan 10, 2022 14:20
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she looks like a drat muppet
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Jan 10, 2022 15:02
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I kind of feel like Reynard had a monologue similar to Shell's many years ago. Here he is, powerful fox spirit lamenting that he is not loved back, despite his powers and look what it got him? So he sees Shell and goes "Yo Chill before you let this eat you up".
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Jan 10, 2022 15:08
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A big flaming stink posted:scrub_quotes.txt
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Jan 10, 2022 15:12
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third last panel is the most reasonable and sensible thing to come out of this comic in years. also, this has done nothing to alleviate my view of the shadow men as petulant idiots. Niavmai fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 17:19
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, do we know why the speed of light is what it is? It's worth noting that we don't even know that the speed of light IS what it is, for sure. It's never been experimentally verified... can't be experimentally verified, in fact, due some weird quirks of how relativity works. Is "because there's another equation that can't have a value less than zero and the speed of light is when that equation zeroes out" an answer to why it is what it is? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 20:41
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cant cook creole bream posted:Screw you Reynard. If a system is inherently broken, the lower caste has a right to be "jealous". I don't feel like class analysis is useful in this situation because the "classes" don't really exist. There's no privileged class of ether-users, and most beings of the Ether react to Coyote and Loup exactly the same way as humans do.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:59
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:So the shadow men just want humanity to be able to exist in a place where they don't have to deal with constant magical bullshit? Seems reasonable.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:09
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ok they're broken jealous nerds got it I actually really like this deliberate blindness stuff. "We're upset we can't use magic like the elves and other aware creatures can, so that's unfair" became such a set-in mantra that an ascending pre-Buddha fell into their lap and they preferred to silence it rather than welcome any insight it might offer. Like, a material example of "actually you can be magical too" meets them, and they're so myopic to appreciate the opportunity presented. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 21:12
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GlyphGryph posted:It's worth noting that we don't even know that the speed of light IS what it is, for sure. It's never been experimentally verified... can't be experimentally verified, in fact, due some weird quirks of how relativity works. "Because why not?" is a perfectly valid answer though.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:24
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The 7th Guest posted:are they just gonna leave Annie and other magical folk behind then? i guess she's already used to living in the forest.. I'm honestly seeing a pretty heavy "genocide" vibe here?
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Jan 10, 2022 21:28
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Oxxidation posted:she looks like a drat muppet That's at least partially because her mouth shouldn't be doing that. The jaw operates on a hinge and even at its widest open, the teeth on the bottom row are going to be angled downward. It's not a square shape. Here's a quick and dirty edit:  Yeah yeah human eyes aren't supposed to be that small and Shell's head is too big for her shoulders if we're nitpicking, that's all fine and deliberate stylization, and I'm sure this is too, it's not like Tom is a bad artist, but this panel did stick out to me as weird.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:52
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I feel like 'actually you're just jealous that some people can do magic' is... also the core moral position of Harry Potter on why non-wizards shouldn't get told about or try to understand magic. Shell being a muppet of a teenager of an adult is doing a lot of framing work to make this position go from 'poorly constructed but understandable' to fodder for 'lol life's not fair sweetie.' As a general rule, anyone who uses 'life's not fair' as a normative argument for not doing something about it is not really worth listening to. It is, in fact, unfair that an rear end in a top hat like Coyote is an immortal, all-powerful demigod-thing! That doesn't make the Court's obviously bad ideas for what to do about it good, but 'have you considered, perhaps, that life is not fair' makes Reynardine seem like the 'you can tell I am right because I am being calm and rational' character in that old Webcomics About Political Opinions parody. E: I had to make it but I want to be clear this isn't proving any kind of point 
Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 22:52
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Joe Slowboat posted:I feel like 'actually you're just jealous that some people can do magic' is... also the core moral position of Harry Potter on why non-wizards shouldn't get told about or try to understand magic. Yes yes capitalism bad, but comparing the disparities caused by magic to capitalism is a false equivalence (using capitalism here cause most obnoxious people who use life is unfair wrongly are trying to defend capitalism so I figure that's who you were implying). Inherently magical beings exist. Magical people exist. Magical cultures exist. Magic isn't a lovely social system that can be changed trivially if the people in charge wanted. It's how a big chunk of the universe in this setting works. Getting rid of magic is basically gonna involve genocide or at best apartheid. So no. It's a position that doesnt really deserve respect of consideration. also antimagic is an inherently boring position in fantasy settings and loving sucks. it's for losers Edit: life is unfair, but the answer to that is to stop people abusing others or to help the unfortunate. It's not to start cutting off people's legs to even things up with the people born without working legs. Reynard's position is fine. A Sometimes Food fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 11:48
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The most interesting way to frame Magic vs. Technology is a conflict between elitism (only wizards can use the scrying crystal, and not just anyone can be a wizard) and egalitarianism (anyone can turn on a TV), with shades of grey around economic, ecological, and social effects of the two methodologies.
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Jan 11, 2022 11:55
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The Shadow Men trying to destroy magic is like a cabal of blind people trying to destroy light cause they think other people being able to see things is unfair. Except unlike the blind people the shadow men can just learn magic poo poo.
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Jan 11, 2022 12:03
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One of them can. That doesn't mean all of them can. Moreover, it's not like etherstuff is all good and dandy for everyone. Zimmy, for example.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:27
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