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Cephas posted:I was reading some of the Monk subclasses and I couldn't believe how lovely they were. Things like Ascendant Dragon getting a breath attack that averages to deal like 5 damage on a target, or Astral Self's level 6 ability being "you can spend 1 ki point to get darkvision, advantage on intimidation, and can talk real loud." You can play as a Stand User in 5e via this handy 3rd party class, the Channeler. I also reviewed it here, for those wanting some in-depth critique.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:17
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that the game devs could take ideas like a dragon shapeshifter or a stand user and make them so dull and half-baked. Like who decided that "you have a complete stand" should wait until level 17?
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Dexo posted:Nerfing Monks certainly is a decision. That's what I'm thinking.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:37
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Yeah, monks suck in 5e. It can feel lovely when they get their stun off, but the chances of it happening are actually really slim. They first have to hit, which ok, anywhere from 40-80% chance of that happening on a particular hit (depending on if they have advantage and the targets AC) and then they have to spend a limited resource to have the enemy make a save....against the the best saving throw most creatures have in the monster manual. Yes if it happens, it feels really good for the monk and really bad for the DM, but honestly, keep track of how often the monk is using stunning strike and how often it actually succeeds. I guarantee you, it is not succeeding more than 46% of the time overall. Honestly monk is just hosed, its damage sucks after level 5 (except mercy monk) and all the subclasses are trash (again except mercy monk). Further, if they want to keep the DC high on stunning strike they have to bump their wisdom over their dex, which means they will hit less often and deal less damage. (Meaning stunning strike will have even fewer chances of being applied). Stunning strike is literally the only good thing about monks, all the rest of their kit is something other classes can usually do better, or at least as good without spending a resource. Now when their big stun happens, yeah it feels good for the monk, especially when it is on the BBEG, but the chances of it happening are slim, it just feels like it happens often because...well...it sucks not being able to play your big monster and when monks work, that is all they are good for, making a big monster skip a turn. I really, really want monks to be good, I want to play Jotaro or Kenshiro, or just a drunk dude who punches good, but Monks are bad. If you enjoy playing them, hey....hats off to ya, I get the appeal, but if you really look at what their kit brings, it is mediocre at best. And it is the worst kind of mediocre because they are usually worthless with the occasional spike of usefulness that just makes the DM feel bad. edit-But hey if you want to be a Stand user, just play Echo Knight or Wildfire Druid, they seem to have the stand thing down pretty well honestly. Echo Knight even has the limited range thing. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 04:05
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Forge of Fury: We just fought and killed a Roper with a party of four level 3 characters. That thing was brutal as hell and I don't think we would have survived had we not have two minions for it to devour before it started chomping on party members.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:10
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On today's episode of RS's sunday adventures, we've returned to the main campaign from our off brand Curse of Strahd. Basically we are finishing our week of downtime that we started when we concluded for *checks notes* October for a Halloween themed campaign. Me and the warlock struggle to open rubik's cubes, and otherwise just do downtime things, like reading books that give +2 to a stat (we had six books, each to one stat, single use). At one point we encounter a very shady merchant selling off brand magic items, such as a magnifying glass that lets you take investigation checks at disadvantage! But otherwise works really well at starting fires. At one point though when my character meets the merchant I notice the merchant's bag bite him as he put gold in it. The not quite honourable but dare say principled? Character that my character is, I point it out that his bag might eat all of his earnings; he insists otherwise showing me the bag saying I can put my own hand in and verify that all of his gold is fine. I put my hand in and get sucked in! We then smash cut to the other party members doing other things. Thankfully this isn't actually a bag of devouring and is actually a story hook still ongoing currently. I made a meme inbetween being shoved into the bag and it being clear that this is a story hook that I probably won't get to share to my group (at least until after the story hook is resolved):  Currently the party is struggling to get past the bouncer to an exclusive bar. Time will tell if they can get let in with the rest of the cool demon kids.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:20
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Dexo posted:Nerfing Monks certainly is a decision. Is this nerfed? Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested in feedback, as this is all a first-draft. For example, the revised Monk doesn't get built-in fast movement (though this build manages it nicely), but all revised Monks are half-casters who also get cantrips. Alexandra, L11 Wood Elf Monk (Urchin) L5: Magic Warrior; L10: Body Magic Str 10 Dex 18 +4 Con 14 +2 Int 10 Wis 16 +3 Cha 8 -1 Saves: Str +0 Dex +8 Con +2 Int +0 Wis +7 Cha -1 HP: 80 AC: 17 (unarmored)/19 (Hasted) +5 for Shield (22/24) Speed 45 ft (55 ft with Longstrider or Transmuter’s Stone, 65 ft with both) Feats: Mobile (+10 speed, Dash ignores difficult terrain, don’t provoke OAs from creatures you take melee attacks against), War Caster (advantage on concentration checks, somatic components while both hands occupied, OA provoked from movement can trigger a spell) Proficiencies: Armor none; Weapons: Shortsword and simple weapons; Tools: Calligraphy, Disguise Kit, Thieves’ Tools (+8), Lute; Skills: Acrobatics (+8), Athletics (+4), Sleight of Hand (+8), Stealth (+8) Attacks (Extra Attack, bonus attacks with unarmed strikes as indicated in Abilities) Spear +1: +9 to hit, damage 1d10+5 magical piercing Unarmed Strike: +8 to hit, damage 1d10+4 magical bludgeoning Booming Blade (with spear): +9 to hit, damage 1d10+5 magical piercing + 2d8 thunder and deals 3d8 thunder if target moves Primal Savagery: +7 to hit, damage 3d10 acid Shocking Grasp: +7 to hit (advantage vs metal armor), damage 3d8 lightning and target can’t take reactions Fire Bolt: +7 to hit, 120 foot range, damage 3d10 fire Abilities: [Wood Elf Racial abilities] Unarmored Defense: AC 17 when wearing no armor and not wielding a shield. Martial Arts: Roll 1d10 for damage with unarmed strike or monk weapon, make one unarmed attack as BONUS action if using the Attack action. Ki-powered Abilities: Spend 1 ki to do one of the following. Flurry of Blows (2 unarmed strikes as BONUS action), Patient Defense (Dodge as bonus action); Step of the Wind (Disengage or Dash as bonus action, double jump distance) REACTION Deflect Arrows. Use reaction when hit by ranged weapon attack to reduce damage by 1d10+15. REACTION Slow Fall. Use reaction when falling to reduce falling damage by 55 points. Extra Attack Ki-Empowered Strikes: Unarmed strikes count as magical. Stunning Strike: Spend 7 ki when you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack. Target must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. War Magic: When you use an action to cast a spell, take a single weapon attack at one target. When you use a bonus action to cast a spell of 1st level or higher, take one additional weapon attack in the same turn as part of an attack action. REACTION Strike of Released Power: When you lose concentration on a spell, spend your reaction to take a single weapon attack against one target in range, with a bonus to hit equal to the level of the spell you lost concentration on. Can use if voluntarily ending concentration. Cantrip Mastery: When you take the Attack action, cast one cantrip in place of one of the attacks. If you are in melee and cast a ranged attack cantrip, you are not at disadvantage with that attack. Transmuter’s Stone: Spend 8 hours creating the stone. You can benefit yourself or give it to another creature. When you create choose from: Darkvision out to 60 feet; increase speed by 10 feet when unencumbered; proficiency in Con saves; Resistance to acid, cold, fire, lighting, or thunder damage. Spellcasting: Ki=32 points. Max spell level cast is 3rd. Attack bonus +7, DC 15 Cantrips: Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Poison Spray, Primal Savagery, Shocking Grasp, Spare the Dying Spells Known: (1 ki: Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defense, or Step of the Wind) L1 (2 ki): Absorb Elements, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Longstrider, Shield L2 (3 ki): Alter Self, Blur, Enlarge/Reduce, Spike Growth L3 (5 ki): Fly, Haste (7 ki: Stunning Strike) Tactics: Alexandra normally casts Longstrider on herself and sets her Stone for +10 movement, giving her 65 ft speed. She can dart in, strike a foe four times after using Flurry of Blows, and then withdraw. Depending on the circumstance, she can make one spear attack a Booming Blade, or substitute for Primal Savagery or even Poison Spray. She can also get an extra spear attack if she casts Healing Word. Should she need to escape, she uses Spike Growth and Step of the Wind to get 130 feet away in a single round. Another good trick is to cast Haste on the first round of combat, increasing her speed to 130 feet and her AC to 19 and giving her an extra attack.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:48
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The problem is that all that movement doesn't mean much in most encounters and all those attacks aren't going to hit very hard. Monk has cool flavor but the numbers are just terrible.
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Jan 10, 2022 05:20
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Monks have always sucked. They were added to 1E because the TV series Kung Fu was popular and people wanted to play Kane. Now they're canon, but no one has ever figured out how to make the mechanics of it work properly.
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Jan 10, 2022 05:33
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Deteriorata posted:Monks have always sucked. They were added to 1E because the TV series Kung Fu was popular and people wanted to play Kane. Now they're canon, but no one has ever figured out how to make the mechanics of it work properly. That's because it doesn't work.  A punch man being better than an equally well trained sword man is nonsense. Weapons and armor exist because they make you better at killing mans. A very well trained punch man might be better than rando army conscripts or bandits, which is handy if you live somewhere weapons and armor are illegal for peasants. But that's because of his thousands of hours of training, not because fists are actually as good as knives.So to make it work monks are basically punch wizards. Their punches are a bit magical to make it less absurd for a shirtless dude to punch an armored knight. He's still not as good at being a wizard as a wizard, and not as good at being a fighter as a fighter, because otherwise he'd be over-powered.
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Jan 10, 2022 05:55
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Facebook Aunt posted:That's because it doesn't work. Here is where I like the premise from 4e that monks aren't just talented technical fighters but that they have honed a psionic skill that they materialize by hardening their body offensively and defensively.
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Jan 10, 2022 06:13
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Mr. Lobe posted:Here is where I like the premise from 4e that monks aren't just talented technical fighters but that they have honed a psionic skill that they materialize by hardening their body offensively and defensively. It seems like most of the 5e approach it from that angle but they still just kinda suck or if they don’t they’re boring. I do like Way of the Astral Self both mechanically and flavor-wise though. Way of the Ascendant Dragon is a flavor win but… just not great. Not sure what to do to fix them or make them interesting though. They seem last on the priority list.
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Jan 10, 2022 06:29
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Facebook Aunt posted:That's because it doesn't work. No they don't need to be magic, they already have a Ki system they just need to give it much better options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfqpDgOteN0
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Jan 10, 2022 06:30
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Facebook Aunt posted:That's because it doesn't work. Unless you're a Baki character who absolutely are better than someone with guns or knives. 
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Jan 10, 2022 06:35
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Raenir Salazar posted:Unless you're a Baki character who absolutely are better than someone with guns or knives. I wonder if grappling will ever not suck.
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Jan 10, 2022 06:39
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it doesn't suck if you've got cliffs to throw things down
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Jan 10, 2022 06:51
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If a player’s particular joy in DnD is grappling enemies and throwing them off buildings, you better believe there’s going to be an inordinate amount of encounters with ledges. Actually maybe that’s the buff monks need. All monks get a bonus action to kick an enemy 5 feet in a direction of their choice. Or a reaction. Or a free action. Free action kick.
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Jan 10, 2022 09:42
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imagine dungeons posted:I wonder if grappling will ever not suck. If you take 1e grappling as the baseline, it is currently incredible
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Jan 10, 2022 10:41
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Real Cool Catfish posted:If a player’s particular joy in DnD is grappling enemies and throwing them off buildings, you better believe Dark Messiah of Dungeons and Dragons
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Jan 10, 2022 12:59
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For real, is there any way to make grappling not suck? One of my players runs a halfling tavern brawler barbarian who is always looking to grapple. I’m all on board because she’s a fun character and that’s always hilarious, but every time she gets somebody into a headlock it just… doesn’t do much? Like, I’m trying to think of a magic item or something- she’s already got a ring that lets her treat unarmed strike as a +2 weapon, and that has been great. But for grappling I got nothin’.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:02
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Zombie Dachshund posted:For real, is there any way to make grappling not suck? One of my players runs a halfling tavern brawler barbarian who is always looking to grapple. I’m all on board because she’s a fun character and that’s always hilarious, but every time she gets somebody into a headlock it just… doesn’t do much? Make Tavern Brawler do as much damage as whatever weapon the barbarian uses otherwise. You can attack normally while grappling as long as you have a free hand. Otherwise, the PC has control of 1-2 NPCs during a fight so they can choose where those enemies go and who they attack. The Grappler feat also needs to be fixed because it's near useless, along with some other feats. And a bunch of other things but ya know.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:20
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Arrrthritis posted:Dark Messiah of Dungeons and Dragons This is exactly what I was thinking of. 
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Jan 10, 2022 13:46
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Zombie Dachshund posted:For real, is there any way to make grappling not suck? One of my players runs a halfling tavern brawler barbarian who is always looking to grapple. I’m all on board because she’s a fun character and that’s always hilarious, but every time she gets somebody into a headlock it just… doesn’t do much? Grappling doesn't "suck"......well, let me correct myself. A character who spends one of their limited attacks to grapple USUALLY sucks. But summoning an octopus or a horde of other animals to grapple the enemy with your druid's action is actually super powerful. However, that feels like a cheat, because people want a character who uses THEIR action to grapple to be good. Well, Simic Hybrid exists allowing you to turn your bonus action into a grapple, which is pretty nice, while keeping your hands free for two handed weapons or a sword and shield. Similarly you can grapple with your trunk as a Loxodon, allowing you to Grapple while using a two-handed weapon or a sword and shield but not as a bonus action. But honestly, the best way to use grapple is either to throw people off ledges, or, if someone in your party has the Spike Growth spell. You then grapple the enemy on your turn and on subsequent turns take the dash action to grind their face in the spike growth for 60d4 damage. More (120d4) if you have haste cast on you as well. This makes centaur (with its 40 base speed doing 80d4 without haste and 160d4 with haste), and other similarly speedy races very powerful since with a spike growth down, they can turn their speed directly into damage in a powerfully scaling way. Oh and if you're grappling you better have a very good reason not to take 3 levels of Rune Knight, the size enhancement is pretty necessary for grappling some of the larger and stronger enemies you'll encounter on your journey. Edit- Oh and Tavern Brawler is a bad feat, Skill Expert is much better for a grappler since having expertise in Athletics is really important for a grappler. In your particular case Zombie Dachshund, I'd just include places for your grappler character to throw people into, cages, pits, traps, ledges, that sort of thing. Yeah its kind of artificial, but unless the team is working together to make the grappler way stronger than the sum of its parts, it WILL be somewhat mediocre. Or how about this, give them some magic item that lets them cast Spike Growth once per long rest or something, make it useable with a bonus action (I would never let an optimized player do this, but it sounds like your grappler halfling isn't that experienced) Now they can create the Sand Paper they will grind the face of their enemy on. Even better, have an enemy use the tactic on the party so that when the party gets the ring, they will have been shown exactly how to do it, but in a way that makes it feel less like your feeding them power and more like they stole the enemies goodies by being BIG drat HEROES. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 14:24
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Madmarker posted:Grappling doesn't "suck"......well, let me correct myself. A character who spends one of their limited attacks to grapple USUALLY sucks. But summoning an octopus or a horde of other animals to grapple the enemy with your druid's action is actually super powerful. However, that feels like a cheat, because people want a character who uses THEIR action to grapple to be good. Well, Simic Hybrid exists allowing you to turn your bonus action into a grapple, which is pretty nice, while keeping your hands free for two handed weapons or a sword and shield. Similarly you can grapple with your trunk as a Loxodon, allowing you to Grapple while using a two-handed weapon or a sword and shield but not as a bonus action. But honestly, the best way to use grapple is either to throw people off ledges, or, if someone in your party has the Spike Growth spell. You then grapple the enemy on your turn and on subsequent turns take the dash action to grind their face in the spike growth for 60d4 damage. More (120d4) if you have haste cast on you as well. This makes centaur (with its 40 base speed doing 80d4 without haste and 160d4 with haste), and other similarly speedy races very powerful since with a spike growth down, they can turn their speed directly into damage in a powerfully scaling way. Oh and if you're grappling you better have a very good reason not to take 3 levels of Rune Knight, the size enhancement is pretty necessary for grappling some of the larger and stronger enemies you'll encounter on your journey.  grappling is not meant for pcs. grappling is for the 10 hirelings you purchased before entering the orc lair
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Jan 10, 2022 14:34
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What if you can perform a number of grapples equal to your attacks, and your grapples deal unarmed strike damage. So a fighter with three attacks could grapple someone, throw them to the ground, and then strike them twice which I think sounds both realistic and cinematic. You’re giving up that initial damage for attacks at advantage on a prone opponent.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:22
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Verisimilidude posted:What if you can perform a number of grapples equal to your attacks, and your grapples deal unarmed strike damage. So a fighter with three attacks could grapple someone, throw them to the ground, and then strike them twice which I think sounds both realistic and cinematic. You’re giving up that initial damage for attacks at advantage on a prone opponent. I mean, you can? You replace an Attack made with the attack action with a grapple. Each attack you make can either be a shove, a grapple or an attack. edit-Just noticed the also deal unarmed strike damage part, that would be nice. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 15:26
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Dexo posted:Nerfing Monks certainly is a decision. Yeah, we've all seen the Treantmonk video. If I were reorganizing monks I'd probably make them half-casters along the lines of the 2nd Edition psionicists, with a full spell list up to level 6 or so and casting progression somewhere around a paladin or eldritch knight. Spells would focus on close range combat, stuff like smites and touch range spells, lots of different kinds of disables and pushes and pulls, basically make them the real king of close range melee control. Stunning strike would still be in there but just one tool out of many. I'd also give them a d10 for hit dice and let them use strength or dexterity by their choice for any strength or dex check. I might abandon ki entirely and just give them spell slots like everything else. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 15:33
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Madmarker posted:I mean, you can? You replace an Attack made with the attack action with a grapple. Each attack you make can either be a shove, a grapple or an attack. That’s basically what RAW tavern brawler lets you do: free grapple with an unarmed strike. So if you’re a barbarian with two attacks, you shove somebody and knock them prone (no damage, but advantage from rage) then punch them and grapple (with that rage advantage). Then you just sit on them and keep whaling away with advantage on your attacks, and meanwhile your buddies can help curbstomp them. Which is… actually pretty darn good. Do I tell the player to readjust their tactics? (Probably yes…)
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Jan 10, 2022 15:37
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Verisimilidude posted:What if you can perform a number of grapples equal to your attacks, and your grapples deal unarmed strike damage. So a fighter with three attacks could grapple someone, throw them to the ground, and then strike them twice which I think sounds both realistic and cinematic. You’re giving up that initial damage for attacks at advantage on a prone opponent. You can already replace an Attack with a Grapple, and unarmed strikes without Monk or Tavern Brawler do 1+str mod damage, with an extra +2 if you chose Dueling. Except in circumstances where the enemy AC is too high, I'd rather have three attacks than two with advantage, not to mention all the various sources of advantage you can get.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:38
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Grappling comes down to encounter design. Being able to shut down one or two enemies can be quite potent if there are only a handful, or basically useless if there's a big group of them. A DM that provides a complex battlefield with good targets and environmental opportunities will also enable grapplers.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, we've all seen the Treantmonk video. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 16:03
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Honestly, I feel like one of the big reasons Monks have so consistently sucked in D&D is because the devs put an inordinate amount of weight on the usefulness of a character not being able to be effectively disarmed. There seems to be this assumption that stripping the party of their weapons and gear is going to be a common enough occurrence that the Monk still being able to do the damage of a short sword with their unarmed strikes is going to make them OP. In reality, the party being stripped of their equipment usually happens at most once a campaign - long enough for everyone to realize the scenario is unfun garbage and agree to never do it again.
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Jan 10, 2022 16:06
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Toplowtech posted:The current "spend ki" system is poo poo yeah. I think the monk should be an a-la-carte monk techniques menu, you gain new abilities every few level and you can assign your total ki pool each short rest to a weighted by ki cost power(the stronger the ability the higher the cost). Once this is done, you can use those assigned abilties as many time as you want. It would allow you to have various power settings depending on your total ki level, like being at lower level (5 ki to assign) wouldn't allow you to have stunning strike(4 point) and high mobility powers (2 point) so you would need to make choices. Yeah, I was thinking something like "after a short rest, spend one ki point. You can take flurry of blows every round until your next short or long rest" or something similar. A lot of the abilities just need flat out improvement across the board. E.g., deflect arrows is great! but compare with, e.g., protection from normal missiles. Monks should be able to block any arrows flying within 5' of them, not just ones aimed at them, and as many arrows as are shot in that area that round, not just one. KingKalamari posted:Honestly, I feel like one of the big reasons Monks have so consistently sucked in D&D is because the devs put an inordinate amount of weight on the usefulness of a character not being able to be effectively disarmed. Every other class has lots of cool shiny toys and the toys get improved or buffed over time as more sourcebooks come out. Monks by design have fewer cool toys, so there's less to improve, and their starting baseline in 5e was poorly balanced.
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Jan 10, 2022 16:18
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the problem with monks is they are suboptimal but also extremely cool and people want to play them. this is also the problem with ranger
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Jan 10, 2022 16:45
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As long as I can kill a dragon by punching them in the jaw I’m happy. Maybe they don’t work but I don’t want to have to use a blade or magic if I can help it. Knowing kung fu is too much fun. I also don’t have the experience to know what’s good or not so I’ve got no complaints.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:28
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Is there anything official in the books about retraining/swapping out feats?
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Jan 10, 2022 18:08
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Moldless Bread posted:Is there anything official in the books about retraining/swapping out feats? According to Adventurers League rules any character can be rebuilt prior to level 5. Otherwise the closest you're going to get is that there's some suggested training rules for learning additional tool skills and languages (basically costing you gold and training time). Xanathars goes into more detail about those sorts of downtime activities. Personally I think that this sort of thing should be very possible, and provides a good basis for a side quest scenario if you mention it to the DM. Finding a mentor, growing as a person, fulfilling a goal, or overcoming a difficult challenge should be sufficient basis for selecting a different feat.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:48
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Kaal posted:According to Adventurers League rules any character can be rebuilt prior to level 5. Otherwise the closest you're going to get is that there's some suggested training rules for learning additional tool skills and languages (basically costing you gold and training time). Xanathars goes into more detail about those sorts of downtime activities.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:56
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Fighters in the Black Hack have a class feature where they gain 1d6 per level, and can divvy up those dice between any number of available targets on their turn (so a 10th level Fighter could hit one guy for 10d6 or ten guys for 1d6, etc.). I feel like something like that would be a good fit for the Monk; increases their damage, their options, and really plays to the fantasy of being a kung fu master and just wasting fools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upwyWKzozII
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Jan 10, 2022 18:59
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Bad Seafood posted:Fighters in the Black Hack have a class feature where they gain 1d6 per level, and can divvy up those dice between any number of available targets on their turn (so a 10th level Fighter could hit one guy for 10d6 or ten guys for 1d6, etc.). I feel like something like that would be a good fit for the Monk; increases their damage, their options, and really plays to the fantasy of being a kung fu master and just wasting fools. A feature where you can spend 1 ki point to gain an extra attack, but you cannot attack a creature you've already attacked that turn makes some sense. Then you could really have a monk with 5+ ki points turn into a tornado against large groups of enemies, which sounds really movie kung fu master to me.
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Jan 10, 2022 19:13
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Kaal posted:According to Adventurers League rules any character can be rebuilt prior to level 5.
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Jan 10, 2022 19:29
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