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Necrothatcher posted:Actually, to be fair to the movie Trinity just asks Chad if she "looks like" the game character. and, textually, he's right to laugh at her because of the extremely half-baked "neo and trinity look old in the matrix" idea
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Jan 8, 2022 21:43
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The movie is bad for so many reasons already discussed, but coming away with ‘it says you shouldn’t listen to your therapist or take your meds’ is a real surface level shallow take. If that’s how you read it then you must have thought the original movie was about telling people to take drugs from strangers they met in a car under a bridge? Feast of Burden posted:I feel like this recent piece on Slate says everything I feel about the movie but a lot more eloquently: Yeah this is a good take. I suppose I should finally watch Sense8!
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Jan 8, 2022 21:47
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moths posted:I'm saying the film leans entirely on its audience to apply their own POV. Ultimately every movie that doesn't end with GI Joe explaining the moral of the episode leans on the audience to apply their own POV/empathy/critical thinking at least a little. Maybe this is just one that either resonates hard with some stuff you've gone through or you're more used to things that vibe with your general outlook? Shiroc fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 21:48
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Nuts and Gum posted:The movie is bad for so many reasons already discussed, but coming away with ‘it says you shouldn’t listen to your therapist or take your meds’ is a real surface level shallow take. the movie was written by a flawed human being. it is possible that Lana has bad opinions! i personally don't think it's likely, but it's weird to me that people (not you, everyone) have this kind of weird thing where they don't account for the fact that writers can be flawed, can be totally wrong, etc. As if it's somehow impossible that she could have written something that one might disagree with? It's something I'm trying real hard to grok and I just can't figure out where it comes from... maybe I'm the weird one for NOT thinking that way?
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Jan 8, 2022 21:51
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I thought the analyst's cartoonish misogyny was unrealistic, not because of its content but because he was willing to air it where women were listening. But, then again, he was basically a minor deity who could arrange to have people's memories rewritten.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:53
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Ferrinus posted:I thought the analyst's cartoonish misogyny was unrealistic, not because of its content but because he was willing to air it where women were listening. But, then again, he was basically a minor deity who could arrange to have people's memories rewritten. It felt to me like the Analyst was basically a 12 year old kid, a "young program". Taken in that light, his character makes a lot more sense. He was just a dumb kid.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:55
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precision posted:It felt to me like the Analyst was basically a 12 year old kid, a "young program". Taken in that light, his character makes a lot more sense. He was just a dumb kid. Grown men absolutely think and act on those premises, they're just socialized to test the waters before vocalizing them.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:57
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Ferrinus posted:I thought the analyst's cartoonish misogyny was unrealistic, not because of its content but because he was willing to air it where women were listening. But, then again, he was basically a minor deity who could arrange to have people's memories rewritten. Misogyny does tend to leak out to all women but I've had men start complaining about their wives to me really hard. I think there are some weird social dynamics that happen sometimes when cis guys are talking to trans women. If we're being interpreted as not ~*real women*~ and it trips the 'safe to complain about how women are all bitches, amirite?' switch.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:58
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Ferrinus posted:Grown men absolutely think and act on those premises, they're just socialized to test the waters before vocalizing them. Yes, I know, but the Analyst was not a man, grown or otherwise. He's a computer program.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:58
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Shiroc posted:Ultimately every movie that doesn't end with GI Joe explaining the moral of the episode leans on the audience to apply their own POV/empathy/critical thinking at least a little. Maybe this is just one that either resonates hard with some stuff you've gone through or you're more used to things that vibe with your general outlook? That's fair, and I completely agree. I feel like trying to explore how the film allows for such polar opposite reads is an uphill skate, though.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:00
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precision posted:Yes, I know, but the Analyst was not a man, grown or otherwise. He's a computer program. That could also mean he's a thousand subjective years old or whatever, but generally the programs we've seen have roughly matched their in-matrix manifestations in terms "adulthood" or "maturity" or whatever, like Sati shows up in the form of a kid in Revolutions and is a grown-up in Resurrections.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:02
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moths posted:That's fair, and I completely agree. There isn't a lot to say about how the same art or event can be interpreted differently based on personal experience and ideology other than, yeah, of course. 9/11 was a consequence of decades of US imperialism and violence throughout the world. 9/11 was a shocking and unprovoked attack on the US by people who hate our freedom.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:39
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precision posted:the movie was written by a flawed human being. it is possible that Lana has bad opinions! That is very true. There is so much theory crafting in this thread it reminds me of people obsessed with star citizen; since there’s no actual game everyone is left deriving their own narratives out of the bare bones product given.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:48
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Feast of Burden posted:I feel like this recent piece on Slate says everything I feel about the movie but a lot more eloquently: quote:The one benefit to Resurrections’ absence of these hallmarks is that it works as a re-appreciation for what it takes for Wachowskis to get it right—by seeing upfront what it looks like when it all goes wrong. I hope the silly UE5 demo they made comes to PC at some point soon. I'd love to see how people end up modding it.
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Jan 8, 2022 23:20
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 This is mostly in reference to the bit a few pages ago about the geographic oddities that the first film creates. I suppose there's a USA but it's just Capital (sic) City. Given the extended universe stuff (offhand I only know Goliath occurs "elsewhere" in the UK i believe) it's a very odd place. As a side note I'm a little surprised the matrix rerelease didn't seem to update anything, though I suppose it may just be the original print on digital format so why wouldn't you change the director names? I was kind of surprised to see "brothers" at the end.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:03
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Never noticed Neo's passport literally expires on 9/11/2001. Wild coincidence there.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:44
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Never noticed Neo's passport literally expires on 9/11/2001. Wild coincidence there. count yourself lucky that you were never cornered at a party by a guy whose mind was blown by that fact then lol see also: the band named Explosions in the Sky released an album the day before 9/11 and in the liner notes was the phrase "this plane will crash tomorrow" reality is fuckin weird
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Jan 9, 2022 01:00
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Ferrinus posted:I thought the analyst's cartoonish misogyny was unrealistic, not because of its content but because he was willing to air it where women were listening. But, then again, he was basically a minor deity who could arrange to have people's memories rewritten. Dont forget all about the sexual harassment /misogyny scandals that keep hitting the tech industry. Google in the past and Blizzard more recently. These industries are all mostly male so its not unrealistic at all for such thoughts. And as the Analyst can be representing the modern internet, then open misogyny would definitely be a feature. checkplease fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 01:15
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Feast of Burden posted:I feel like this recent piece on Slate says everything I feel about the movie but a lot more eloquently: I have to highly disagree with this article. He states that the movie is unconcerned with its own lore when if anything, it is the fact that there is so much lore thats alienating audience. I have already talked in this thread on how much love this movie has for the past matrix films. The author also claims there's no fun in the movie which is obviously just crazy (Morpheus and the Analyst are having a great time, there is a very happy ending for Neo and Trinity, etc..). Basically this article is associating the matrix and fun with action and effects. The pitch meeting in the film brings up all these different ideas of what are important to people for a matrix film. This author has described what they would call out in such a meeting, and this review should be judged with this knowledge.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:29
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checkplease posted:I have to highly disagree with this article. He states that the movie is unconcerned with its own lore when if anything, it is the fact that there is so much lore thats alienating audience. I have already talked in this thread on how much love this movie has for the past matrix films. The author also claims there's no fun in the movie which is obviously just crazy (Morpheus and the Analyst are having a great time, there is a very happy ending for Neo and Trinity, etc..). That said, the statements about the action and cinematography aren't incorrect. A majority of people will have trouble looking at the action in this film compared to the original trilogy and say "yes, that is better," whether or not you believe it's on purpose, a message being sent, and/or a forgivable result of the pandemic. If that were the case, the originals wouldn't have been nearly as influential as this writer notes.
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Jan 9, 2022 03:11
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Shiroc posted:I wasn't really asking about what an Otherkin is, I was more asking about you assigning tons of random internality to the characters based on a marginal internet thing. Then you go 'well it would be problematic to directly parallel this to trans experience but also there are tons of trans otherkins (?) so maybe parallel it *wink*.' The entire discussion that we’ve been having concerns the difference between the literal events of the film and the undeniable ‘resonance’ that that those events have with various people. The film is literally about an otherkin-related internet religion, in the same way that Prometheus is about ancient aliens. It’s fringe stuff. However, there is a ‘resonance’ with a wide variety of marginalized groups. I attribute this ‘resonance’ to the religion’s outré subject matter and history of inclusivity. At the same time, I am being as clear as I can that - as you’ll probably agree - gender identity is not a religious belief. There is no analogy between the otherkin beliefs of what we could call “The Church of Neo”, and the trans rights movement (or BLM, or whatever else). The best analogy we have would be to other religions. In other words, we are in agreement in every way except for the definition of a text. Your assertion is that ‘the resonance is the text’ because the intensely personal context eclipses all else. My assertion is that the film is the text. This has led to current situation we are in, where I think disregarding aspects of the text that don’t ‘resonate’ with you is weakening your interpretation, but saying so is taken as evidence that I don’t care about you or am actively trying to harm you. What I’d actually like, believe it or not, is for you to succeed. I think your argument can be stronger.
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Jan 9, 2022 03:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The entire discussion that we’ve been having concerns the difference between the literal events of the film and the undeniable ‘resonance’ that that those events have with various people. Goddamn you're full of poo poo. Okay, I'm done with this conversation.
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Jan 9, 2022 03:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The film is literally about an otherkin-related internet religion, in the same way that Prometheus is about ancient aliens. While I respect that this is a funny insult, it's not actually true. The chronology's backwards; Trinity is the preexisting subject of a piece of art "Thomas Anderson" (but more likely some synthient ghostwriters) made. It's like calling someone otherkin for recognizing themselves in a secret admirer's portrait. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 03:42
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Not going to go pages back but thanks tho whoever suggested giving this a shot. It's kind of a mess and sadly the action mostly sucked but overall it was at least pretty fun anyway. Glad it's not a by the book reboot or something.
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Jan 9, 2022 14:51
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moths posted:I really hope this isn't how I'm coming across. Also Shiroc really stop responding to SMG. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 14:59
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DaveKap posted:I think the statements about the film's unconcern with lore is to be taken more as opinion than fact, when you consider that the reception to the consistent winks and nods to the audience have garnered extremely positive and extremely negative reactions. Those who take it positively practically want to stand up and applaud the message being sent while those who take it negatively feel that a canon and lore has been tossed aside in favor of sneering at mainstream media. It is, if anything, one of the most divisive things Resurrections does and something that seems to garner mixed reviews across most media that dares to do the same thing. There's a reason you'll get similar mixed reactions to anything related to Deadpool, for example, one of the only bits of media that rubs its rear end on the 4th wall as much as Resurrections does. Some good points I can mostly agree with. I will say that I think we all agree that first trilogy had peak action scenes/sets. For some like myself who is positive on resurrections, this new action was fine, and was good enough for the plot. For others it may not reach their desired level and drag the film down. It’s true that big action and effect helped sell the original to the audiences, but as noted in the pitch meeting this was only one part of the formula.
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Jan 9, 2022 17:25
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Ferrinus posted:While I respect that this is a funny insult, it's not actually true. The chronology's backwards; Trinity is the preexisting subject of a piece of art "Thomas Anderson" (but more likely some synthient ghostwriters) made. It's like calling someone otherkin for recognizing themselves in a secret admirer's portrait. Otherkin isn't an insult; it's 'just' an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon depicted in the films. Simulation Theory is likewise a silly quasi-religious belief - but it's undeniably what the Matrix films are literally about. Jurassic Park is about a zoo for genetically engineered dinosaurs. I don't believe this is 'good' or 'bad'; it's just true. But you do have it wrong. If you consult the Otherkin Wiki, "recognizing yourself as the preexisting subject of a piece of art " is actually the definition of fictionkin: "[Some fictionkin] believe that there are ... universes where fictional characters are real. If this is true, then theoretically a character could live, die, and then be reborn in a different universe. This is a common explanation for most fictionkin's spirituality. The aforementioned would also explain memories or déjà vu experienced while reading, watching, or listening to something that relates to the fictional characters." So, yeah, Tiffany/Trinity literally experiences déjà vu, from her past life in an alternate universe, while playing a videogame. She believes she and Tom/Neo are 'twin flame' soulmates from the alt-universe past life. That's fictionkin. "After you left, I went home and I played [The Matrix videogames]. I kept thinking, why does this story feel like a memory? There’s a part of me that feels like I have been waiting my whole life for you. " (As a contrast, there are a variety of otherkin terms for "identifying extremely strongly with a fictional character": 'fictionheart', 'supportlink', etc. These would apply more to the character of Bugs (as in "Bunny"). This is where we need to get into the specifics of what's going on in the movie. Like, people have presented various riffs on the basic concept of 'evil therapist', which have disregarded the parts where the character is literally the creator-god of the entire universe, or the whole comedy torture sequence at the end of the film. It's avoiding rather basic questions like why Neo and Trinity are allowed to remember anything at all. Why would the Analyst "bury truth inside something as ordinary as a video game" instead of just, like, not doing that? These are things we need to take into account.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:54
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Timeless Appeal posted:It is a bit, but I don't think it's your intent. I don't think that we're really in that much disagreement with the movie. It really is not that good of a movie. Yeah, I'm done and put them on ignore. I should have taken one of the sublessons of this movie sooner. If a posturing weirdo floods the zone with poo poo in order to try to maintain control, engaging on their terms will always be diminishing and you need to do something else to get out of it.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Otherkin isn't an insult; it's 'just' an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon depicted in the films. Simulation Theory is likewise a silly quasi-religious belief - but it's undeniably what the Matrix films are literally about. Jurassic Park is about a zoo for genetically engineered dinosaurs. I don't believe this is 'good' or 'bad'; it's just true. If I wrote a dramatization of your posting in the Star Wars thread with some names changed, and you read it, and you realized what you were reading, that would not render you, uh, fictionkin.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:57
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Shiroc posted:Yeah, I'm done and put them on ignore. I should have taken one of the sublessons of this movie sooner. If a posturing weirdo floods the zone with poo poo in order to try to maintain control, engaging on their terms will always be diminishing and you need to do something else to get out of it. Ignore is useless, quotes bypass it.
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Jan 9, 2022 22:37
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HorseLord posted:Ignore is useless, quotes bypass it. That reminds me someone had an IIRC Chrome script for fishmech where it would make their posts not even appear at all.
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Jan 9, 2022 22:50
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Clutching pearls that this movie could contain an otherkin feels like a weird something awful gay panic type thing, Being so ultra scared some fiction might contain an otherkin seems like a weird thing to have anxiety over. Even if it did who cares? It’s not going to get on you if you watch a movie with an abstract fictional otherkin in it.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:26
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Shiroc posted:Goddamn you're full of poo poo. Okay, I'm done with this conversation. the poster says for the six billionth time
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Jan 10, 2022 04:10
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I thought the otherkin movie was Ready Player One
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Jan 10, 2022 04:28
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I think it goes to the point that Trinity's awakening is framed in a vague enough way that it could be a proxy for any kind of change, either cathartic or destructive. As Shiroc pointed out, if it's "too queer" the mainstream will bounce off. Lana played it safe and we got Trinity leaving her family to be a superhero from a video game. Which was enough for a lot of viewers! It's a tightrope and I don't think she stuck the landing, but it wasn't a disaster. Again, I think Trinity got shortchanged by not being the star and focal character. Moss was intense and saved her portrayal, but her character was literally an object in two pivotal scenes. Using her as a POV character to explore control in the context of gaslighting and toxic interpersonal relationships would have been a perfect bookend to the first Matrix's themes of institutional control.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:58
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Ferrinus posted:If I wrote a dramatization of your posting in the Star Wars thread with some names changed, and you read it, and you realized what you were reading, that would not render you, uh, fictionkin. No, because the Star Wars thread isn't an alternate universe. It could maybe count as some sort of hypothetical 'nonfictionkin' - if I personally identified as the character in your dramatization on a 'deeply spiritual level'. Like, beyond my more immediate experience. In the terms of Matrix 4, I am a Tiffany who distinguishes (I'm going to say 'is able to distinguish') between who I am and how others view me. In doing so, I open up a third possibility: divorcing Chad doesn't necessitate that I couple up with the videogame dude. Again, this is where we need to talk about reality. While Neo and Trinity believe that the events of the Matrix films/games actually happened, they did not happen in the reality they currently inhabit. Analyst has constructed a full-fledged alternate universe whose history stretches back to the beginning of time, like the old creationist belief that the devil placed dinosaur fossils in the ground to fool us into disbelieving the bible. With Analyst, "it is ... easy to see the connection with Freud, who defined reality as that which functions as an obstacle to desire: 'ugliness' ultimately stands for existence itself, for the resistance of reality on account of which the material reality is never simply an ethereal medium which lends itself effortlessly to our molding. [...] The problem, of course, is that, in a sense, life itself is 'ugly:' if we truly want to get rid of the ugliness, we are sooner or later forced to adopt the attitude of a cathar for whom terrestrial life itself is a hell, and God - who created this world - is Satan himself, the Master of the World." (Zizek) But it's not enough to say that the reality of Matrix 4 is merely a trick, and the Matrix Trilogy depicted the true reality. Any feminist critique of the Chad character's behavior is neutralized if Chad is just a mechanism implanted into Trinity's backstory, for example. Since the Matrix films were retconned into "ingame footage", the events of those films are now forever 'mediated' - a fact emphasized by how every role was recast/obscured, except that of the Merovingian. Tom's memory is unreliable, and doubly so when translated to the fuckin N64.
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Jan 10, 2022 05:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Otherkin isn't an insult; it's 'just' an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon depicted in the films. Simulation Theory is likewise a silly quasi-religious belief. 'otherkin is not an insult, it is an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon and, like simulation theory, is a silly quasi-religious belief.' 'otherkin is not an insult, it is silly.' you need to be more careful.
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Jan 10, 2022 05:47
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I take silliness very seriously.
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Jan 10, 2022 06:40
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insult:SuperMechagodzilla posted:Otherkin isn't an insult; it's 'just' an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon depicted in the films. Simulation Theory is likewise a silly quasi-religious belief - but it's undeniably what the Matrix films are literally about. not an insult: SuperMechagodzilla posted:Otherkin isn't an insult; it's 'just' an unusual and interesting cultural phenomenon depicted in the films. It, in addition to Simulation Theory (a silly quasi-religious belief), is undeniably what the Matrix films are literally about.
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Jan 10, 2022 07:35
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checkplease posted:It’s true that big action and effect helped sell the original to the audiences, but as noted in the pitch meeting this was only one part of the formula. Even though the film is trying to prove a point - very unsubtly - that people want their formulaic product and all intended ingredients, that doesn't mean the movie is forgiven for breaking the formula. I think people who are down on what they got have every right to be because of the ingredients being swapped without their knowledge. Meanwhile, people who are positive on the movie may have never wanted the formulaic product in the first place, didn't understand what the formula ever was, or simply enjoy expectation subversion via ingredient change more than receiving the expected product of the expected ingredients. Which is why I can't really fault anyone for loving or hating this film because, if anything, it was really good at subverting expectations and messing with the formula... which made it really bad for anyone who didn't want or expect that. To put this all into a funnier perspective, I loving loved Rise of Skywalker and think it's a brilliant film. I think I'm done posting and reading about this movie now. Despite how middling my opinions on this film have been since watching it, I think I've finally landed on "I didn't like it" based on the one thing that didn't have to be as unmemorable as it was... the soundtrack. Not a single original composition in this film did anything for me. Mind you, there's always been a special place in my heart for White Rabbit and it did its job well in this film, but nothing hit me like, say, Juno Reactor, Don Davis, or Rob D did from the originals. It's a shame!
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Jan 10, 2022 12:05
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