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For people craving dictatorship a warning: man in Belarus sentenced to two years in a penal colony for an internet comment: https://theins.ru/news/247739 If you won't log off then the state will log you off FishBulbia posted:For the professor I had, the debate was always too political, and the label too irrelevant. It matters little to the emaciated child what exactly the goal of their death is. It's a question worth examining, but one given too much weight due to the contemporary conflict. This is exactly the issue, like any aspect of reality everything is worth examining and determining facts to the best of our ability, but somehow the topic is mostly brought up not by WW2 academics bickering about historical sources, but by people similar to amateur historian Truth_Seeker_1488 whose lifelong research is centered on the question did 6 million really die Somaen fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 10:01
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Is goatse protected speech still?
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Jan 10, 2022 10:17
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Nenonen posted:Is goatse protected speech still? I imagine if the police wanted to arrest you, but all they had was your post with goatse inline (or even a link to goatse), they would qualify that as distribution of pornography, which is a criminal offence. Up to 2 years of forced labour or 6 months of prison. You could potentially lower that by recording a video where you say you're gay and regret it.
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Jan 10, 2022 10:20
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Following up on this important story as it unfolds: https://twitter.com/henrybreadstick/status/1480405251115028486?s=20
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Jan 10, 2022 10:25
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I was just doing research for my proctology class. The motherland needs good doctors
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Jan 10, 2022 10:27
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In a free country, you are allowed to ask questions freely, such as "what is that man is doing to his anus?!"
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Jan 10, 2022 10:41
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OddObserver posted:Also makes it sound like "oh, just some food shortages in Ukraine, unfortunate, but those things happen".... never mind it was indisputably mass murder by the Stalin regime --- the only real dispute being the criteria based on which the victims were chosen (ethnicity? farmers owning some petty property? just happenstance?), which, frankly, doesn't matter all that much unless someone is being pedantic. "It's not technicallllyyy a genocide, they just accidentally murdered a bunch of minorities when trying to murder farmers and then resettled Russians in their place" is a heck of a hill to die on. lmao "indisputable", even Robert Conquest had to concede the famine wasn't deliberate mass murder after Davies and Wheatcroft released their book on the famine. This is the same historian who proudly wore the title "cold warrior" and who wrote his histories with the open objective of discrediting communism and the soviets. quote:Robert Conquest had similarly originally underestimated the extent of the crisis and had earlier written that ‘Stalin could, at any time, have ordered the release of grain, and held off until the late Spring’ (Harvest of Sorrow, 326), but when confronted with the evidence, he changed his mind. When Davies and myself provided him with documented details about the scale of the crisis and the large number of secret relief measures carried out by the Politburo, and when we argued that we disagreed with Conquest's published view that Stalin ‘wanted a famine’, and that ‘the Soviets did not want the famine to be coped with successfully’, he responded by modifying his earlier criticisms. He asked us to state publicly that it was not his (Conquest's) opinion that ‘Stalin purposely inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put “Soviet interest” other than feeding the starving first-thus consciously abetting it’ (Conquest letter to Wheatcroft, September 2003). We complied with Conquest's wishes and included that statement in footnote 145 on page 441 of our book, which then received an approving blurb from Conquest. (Unfortunately Conquest's blurb was only reproduced in the first edition). It is consequently wrong to cite the views of Conquest as a justification for accepting that the famine was a genocide, caused on purpose to kill Ukrainians. We all agreed that Stalin's policy was brutal and ruthless and that its cover up was criminal, but we do not believe that it was done on purpose to kill people and cannot therefore be described as murder or genocide. What you call "indisputable" is widely panned, even among liberal scholars in the US, the most anti-communist country in all of history.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:14
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Red and Black posted:in the US, the most anti-communist country in all of history. More anti communist than Nazi Germany or the various South American juntas? Give me a loving break.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:24
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Love to conflate government anti-Communism with the stances of the academia
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Jan 10, 2022 13:34
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steinrokkan posted:Love to conflate government anti-Communism with the stances of the academia Imagine thinking the US’s anti-communist culture doesn’t reach the academy. And what is your point even? Are you going claim liberal academia is full of Stalin apologists? Good lord
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Jan 10, 2022 13:49
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Red and Black posted:Imagine thinking the US’s anti-communist culture doesn’t reach the academy. That your "even Hitler McMussolini from AMERIKKKA agrees that Stalin did nothing wrong" argument is stupid.
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Jan 10, 2022 14:02
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steinrokkan posted:That your "even Hitler McMussolini from AMERIKKKA agrees that Stalin did nothing wrong" argument is stupid. Ok, so which historian are you going to cite to prove that Stalin deliberately manufactured a famine to genocide the Ukrainians? Keep in mind that a post you read one time on /pol/ isn’t an academic source
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Jan 10, 2022 14:08
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Red and Black posted:And what is your point even? Are you going claim liberal academia is full of Stalin apologists? Good lord Would you mind clearly restating your point? In your own words, if that is ok. It's just that you seem adamant in arguing it but so far it has been mostly done via a barrage of long quotes and accusations of liberalism/reading /pol/
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Jan 10, 2022 14:20
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Red and Black posted:Ok, so which historian are you going to cite to prove that Stalin deliberately manufactured a famine to genocide the Ukrainians? "Enforcing a deliberate policy of exporting grain in the knowledge that huge numbers of people will die as a result isn't 'manufacturing a famine'."
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Jan 10, 2022 14:34
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You probably can argue about this fascinating topic on the Talk page of this wiki article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question
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Jan 10, 2022 14:41
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Rust Martialis posted:"Enforcing a deliberate policy of exporting grain in the knowledge that huge numbers of people will die as a result isn't 'manufacturing a famine'." If by manufacturing a famine you mean the famine was greatly exacerbated by the actions of Soviet Government, then I agree. If you want to argue that Stalin’s government showed a callous disregard for human life as the famine began to manifest itself, then I agree. But if by manufacturing a famine you mean Stalin wanted a famine and deliberately withheld grain with the intention of genociding Ukrainians, then the evidence is heavily against you. And if you think the famine is equivalent to the holocaust as an earlier poster argued (and as is implied by the name “holodomor”), you’ve gone off the deep end entirely
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Jan 10, 2022 14:41
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Red and Black posted:And if you think the famine is equivalent to the holocaust as an earlier poster argued (and as is implied by the name “holodomor”), you’ve gone off the deep end entirely In a world where there is a Ukrainian Famine and Genocide (Holodomor) Memorial Day in Canada that deep wnd is shallow as heck.
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Jan 10, 2022 14:48
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Truth_Seeker_1488 posted:Debate me coward (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2022 14:49
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I'm glad Stalin is not that kind of a monster, but is instead different kind of a monster. Much better! please, stop, I will rather read about Djokovic or horrible salads
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Jan 10, 2022 14:51
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Bel Shazar posted:In a world where there is a Ukrainian Famine and Genocide (Holodomor) Memorial Day in Canada that deep wnd is shallow as heck. I mean a bunch of anti-communist countries have signed onto a document calling the Ukrainian famine a genocide. It’s motivated by politics not the study of history. I doubt Canada a day specifically dedicated to remembering their (ongoing) genocide of the natives there. That’s also politics
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Jan 10, 2022 14:54
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Red and Black posted:And if you think the famine is equivalent to the holocaust as an earlier poster argued (and as is implied by the name “holodomor”), you’ve gone off the deep end entirely That name was coined in the 30s and is derived from "death by hunger".
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Jan 10, 2022 14:54
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Red and Black posted:I mean a bunch of anti-communist countries have signed onto a document calling the Ukrainian famine a genocide. It’s motivated by politics not the study of history. I doubt Canada a day specifically dedicated to remembering their (ongoing) genocide of the natives there. That’s also politics Totally politics, and yet not uncommon, so it's not some weird and expected stance. It may be biased, it isn't atypical.
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Jan 10, 2022 14:58
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Red and Black posted:If by manufacturing a famine you mean the famine was greatly exacerbated by the actions of Soviet Government, then I agree. If you want to argue that Stalin’s government showed a callous disregard for human life as the famine began to manifest itself, then I agree. Yeah well, you keep saying it but it doesn't make it not a genocide. There are were a number of genocides in the 20th Century, and they were all different. The Bengal famine was a genocide, and so was the Holodromor, and Rwanda, and Shoah, and the Armenian Genocide for starters. I don't claim they are equal except in that they were all instances of genocide. I find them incommensurate and I am not capable of ranking a particular body count "worse" or "better" thank you. quote:In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
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Jan 10, 2022 14:59
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Randarkman posted:That name was coined in the 30s and is derived from "death by hunger". If it was coined in the 30s I’m sure you can tell me the name of who coined it and I where it first appeared in print? As far as I can tell it entered use in the 80s, but nobody seems to know when or by who it was coined. Also whatever the official explanation of the term is it’s clearly favored because it evokes comparison to the holocaust.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:01
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I'm so glad this thread has been colonized by a bunch of totally cool people trying to "well akshyually" crimes against humanity out of existence
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Jan 10, 2022 15:04
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TIL the person who coined the term genocide identified the Holodomor as s genocide. 'Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), an expert in international criminal law (with a particular interest in the prevention of mass human extermination), who coined and promoted the term "genocide," identified the Holodomor as "the classic example of Soviet genocide."' https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor
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Jan 10, 2022 15:06
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Dwesa posted:please, stop, I will rather read about Djokovic or horrible salads We should create a recipe for some horrendous salad and name it Djokovic.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:07
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Red and Black posted:If it was coined in the 30s I’m sure you can tell me the name of who coined it and I where it first appeared in print? As far as I can tell it entered use in the 80s, but nobody seems to know when or by who it was coined. голодомор literally just means "famine" in the language where said famine happened, you incredibly tedious dullard
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Jan 10, 2022 15:08
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Red and Black posted:If it was coined in the 30s I’m sure you can tell me the name of who coined it and I where it first appeared in print? As far as I can tell it entered use in the 80s, but nobody seems to know when or by who it was coined. Seems to have been first used to refer the collectivization famine in 1933 in a Czech magazine, I think. based on some looking around. And the term also seems to have been in use among the Ukrainian diaspora elsewhere to refer to famines, probably the one at the tail end of the civil war.  That's from a Ukrainian diaspora newspaper, "Svoboda", in New Jersey, which supposedly used it a number of times through the 1930s (with that first one pictured being 1925). e: steinrokkan posted:голодомор literally just means "famine" in the language where said famine happened, you incredibly tedious dullard And yeah, this makes sense as well. Which of course means that that first one, the Czech magazine, literally was just talking about a famine using the word for famine. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 15:09
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they call famine 'Famine' in Ukrainian (and several other Slavic languages where famine translates to hladomor)... ah yes, it must be because someone wants to tie it to Holocaust 
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Jan 10, 2022 15:09
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Rust Martialis posted:Yeah well, you keep saying it but it doesn't make it not a genocide. There are were a number of genocides in the 20th Century, and they were all different. The Bengal famine was a genocide, and so was the Holodromor, and Rwanda, and Shoah, and the Armenian Genocide for starters. I don't claim they are equal except in that they were all instances of genocide. I find them incommensurate and I am not capable of ranking a particular body count "worse" or "better" thank you. I'd like to concur; atrocities are inquantifiable and thus incomparible. Arguing whether or not Holodomor was a "genocide" - in a narrowly-defined, academic meaning of the word - does not preclude it from being an atrocity; a man-made, orchestrated famine. Holodomor being politically convenient for some anti-communist actors does not preclude it from being an atrocity either. Calling it a genocide does not put it into direct compatison with the Holocaust, and neither it takes anything away from the severity of the Holocaust. nurmie fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 15:09
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Dwesa posted:they call famine 'Famine' in Ukrainian (and several other Slavic languages where famine translates to hladomor)... ah yes, it must be because someone wants to tie it to Holocaust The gall of these savages to use their own language to describe things happening to them
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Jan 10, 2022 15:11
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Bel Shazar posted:TIL the person who coined the term genocide identified the Holodomor as s genocide. Yeah, he also lobbied heavily against the African Americans who wanted to charge genocide against the United States. So it's not like he was always clear headed in this respect. Anyways, his definition requires intentionality which is at the center of what's being argued here. And much of that is based in study of the Soviet archives which weren't even available when Lemkin died. steinrokkan posted:The gall of these savages to use their own language to describe things happening to them I think it's pretty clear I'm talking about the usage of the word in English, but go off dude
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Jan 10, 2022 15:15
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Red and Black posted:And if you think the famine is equivalent to the holocaust as an earlier poster argued (and as is implied by the name “holodomor”), you’ve gone off the deep end entirely My imbecile friend, please note that “mor” means “to kill” in Ukrainian, whereas “golod”, pronounced as “holod” in the most common dialects of Ukrainian, means “hunger” in Ukrainian. As a consequence, “holodomor” is literally “death by hunger”. In fact, it is Romanised as Holodomor for accent reasons, and the true spelling is Golodomor.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:23
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Red and Black posted:I think it's pretty clear I'm talking about the usage of the word in English, but go off dude I think it's *abundantly* clear what you're saying, but the polite term for it is genocide denial.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:28
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Rust Martialis posted:I think it's *abundantly* clear what you're saying, but the polite term for it is genocide denial. That is essentially what you’re doing in attempting to equate the famine to the Holocaust, yes
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Jan 10, 2022 15:31
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Red and Black posted:I think it's pretty clear I'm talking about the usage of the word in English, but go off dude So now not only are Ukrainians Nazis who deserve to be destroyed (at least a little bit, as long as it's nothing personal), but also their very language is politically criminal because you don't like how it sounds/ looks when inserted into English.
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Jan 10, 2022 15:33
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Next up: Ukrainians are trying to coopt the postcolonial narrative by being too swarthy
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Jan 10, 2022 15:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:My imbecile friend, please note that “mor” means “to kill” in Ukrainian, whereas “golod”, pronounced as “holod” in the most common dialects of Ukrainian, means “hunger” in Ukrainian. As a consequence, “holodomor” is literally “death by hunger”. In fact, it is Romanised as Holodomor for accent reasons, and the true spelling is Golodomor. ... In Cyrillic, anyway, in that Ukrainian orthography[1] reflects the phonological correspondence of Ukrainian (and other Slavic) h and Russian g. In fact I am pretty sure it's one of the phonological changes in Russian itself --- it shows it not only vs. other Slavic languages, but also on words borrowed from other languages, e.g. compare English Hospital (word of Latin origins) to Russian Gospital' (spelled госпиталь), to Ukrainian Hospital' (spelled госпіталь, but pronounced closer to English!) [1] The version used in independent Ukraine, anyway. IIRC USSR did it differently!
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Jan 10, 2022 15:41
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OddObserver posted:... In Cyrillic, anyway, in that Ukrainian orthography[1] reflects the phonological correspondence of Ukrainian (and other Slavic) h and Russian g. yeah, most dialects of russian have a pretty "hard" G - госпиталь/gospital is a good example of that. in ukrainian (and most southern dialects of russian) the G becomse "soft" - so it would sound more like хоспиталь/hospital (at least that's how my granma, originally from somewhere near Kuban', pronouces it) waiting for some idiot to pop in and say that the "holod" part in Holodomor refers to "холод" (cold) and not "голод", hence all those ukrainian and southern russian peasants died of a very cold winter, nothing to do with stalin, no siree
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Jan 10, 2022 15:52
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