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nurmie posted:If I may, I'd like to ask for a clarification on this. Are there any reasons you hold this particular opinion? Because for an opinion it seems to be awfully close to be worded as a statement of historical fact. It's difficult to prove what someones intentions are in using a term. I would point to the syntax of the term, it's similarity to the term Holocaust (in English), and the fact that similar terms haven't been discovered in English for the many other famines that have occurred throughout history (Ireland and Bengal come to mind). I would be happy if it were accepted that I personally don't use the term because of these connotations and there's nothing malicious about describing the historical event as the Ukrainian Famine. Koos Group posted:Even if something is merely your opinion, you still need to be willing to fully defend it (or at least reconsider it) if you state it in D&D. Bear that in mind. Yes, I'm happy to abide by your rules as long as everyone here is held to them equally. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 20:20
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Koos Group posted:Well, whether the discussion is interesting and not repeating itself is a concern to me, so I'll keep that in mind. However, because this is the only Eastern Europe thread, people have a right to discuss Eastern European issues here even if some of the regulars like using it more as a hangout. I would be willing to do what the Canada thread does, and have one hangout thread mostly for Canadians and another more serious discussion thread. Erm, I mean a hangout thread mostly for Eastern Europeans, not Canadians.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:26
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Just seeking some clarity here: all the key posters in this discussion seem to agree that there was a famine resulting in mass death that the Soviet government is responsible for. Is the key dispute about whether or not it qualifies as a genocide based on if there was intentionality? i.e., it does not qualify as a genocide if the Soviet government did not set out to kill Ukrainians?
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Jan 10, 2022 20:36
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Nenonen posted:We should create a recipe for some horrendous salad and name it Djokovic.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:36
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Koos Group posted:Erm, I mean a hangout thread mostly for Eastern Europeans, not Canadians. 
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Jan 10, 2022 20:38
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Minenfeld! posted:Just seeking some clarity here: all the key posters in this discussion seem to agree that there was a famine resulting in mass death that the Soviet government is responsible for. Is the key dispute about whether or not it qualifies as a genocide based on if there was intentionality? i.e., it does not qualify as a genocide if the Soviet government did not set out to kill Ukrainians? That appears to be the major scholarly debating point both here and in academia: Was it intentional? Or was it just a side effect of Stalin's industrialization coming at the same time as multiple famines combined with ethnic cleansing, etc.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:39
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Dwesa posted:After few beers in a pub, I gave this a thought and I am wondering what would be some unique Serbo-Australian dish. I have no problem coming with some Serbian (or rather Balkan) dishes, but I am not sure what would be Australia's addition, something like pljeskavica or cevap from kangaroo meat? Yeah, I don't know much about Australia's cuisine and they don't seem to have some globally-known fruit like NZ has kiwis. Vegemite is a fruit, innit? And it's said to be healthy - probably keeps even covid away!
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Jan 10, 2022 20:41
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An olivier salad with beetroot and a steaming vegemite spread.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:50
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A shot of slivovic drowned in a can of VB
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Jan 10, 2022 20:50
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i just found out today what's the deal with Djokovic, and i still can't believe how incredibly stupid it all is.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:58
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barbecue at the folks posted:A shot of slivovic drowned in a can of VB  Somehow more offending than olivier salad with vegemite
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Jan 10, 2022 21:04
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Dwesa posted:After few beers in a pub, I gave this a thought and I am wondering what would be some unique Serbo-Australian dish. I have no problem coming with some Serbian (or rather Balkan) dishes, but I am not sure what would be Australia's addition, something like pljeskavica or cevap from kangaroo meat? Yeah, I don't know much about Australia's cuisine and they don't seem to have some globally-known fruit like NZ has kiwis. a bunch of cubed polony mixed with minced gherkins and mayonnaise
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Jan 10, 2022 22:44
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Red and Black posted:It's difficult to prove what someones intentions are in using a term. I would point to the syntax of the term, it's similarity to the term Holocaust (in English), and the fact that similar terms haven't been discovered in English for the many other famines that have occurred throughout history (Ireland and Bengal come to mind). I would be happy if it were accepted that I personally don't use the term because of these connotations and there's nothing malicious about describing the historical event as the Ukrainian Famine. That said, I feel like that's more an argument in favor of adapting more evocative terms for other famines. An Droch Shaol has a lot more punch than Irish Potato Famine, which given the jokes about potatoes seems to have convinced people pretty well that the cause of it was an over-reliance of the Irish on potatoes rather than deliberate British policy. A parallel being if you started referring to the Holodomor as "the Ukrainian Grain Famine".
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Jan 10, 2022 22:45
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waydownLo posted:a bunch of cubed polony mixed with minced gherkins and mayonnaise i mean, that's basically olivier anyway
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Jan 10, 2022 22:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I hadn't considered this, but thinking about it, your point here actually makes some amount of sense. Giving a famine a generic name, like "Bengal famine of 1943", shifts it in a category of "just another historical famine", while the term Holodomor makes it stand out as something more and gives it an almost mythical feel (to people unaware of the actual meaning of the name). An Gorta Mor is a term I've heard more than once, also the Great Famine or Irish Famine. Black '47 also specifically comes to mind but I'm a genealogy nerd so probably hear more than most.
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Jan 10, 2022 22:54
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Minenfeld! posted:Just seeking some clarity here: all the key posters in this discussion seem to agree that there was a famine resulting in mass death that the Soviet government is responsible for. Is the key dispute about whether or not it qualifies as a genocide based on if there was intentionality? i.e., it does not qualify as a genocide if the Soviet government did not set out to kill Ukrainians? Here is what is not debatable for historians: The Soviet Government knew about the famines The Soviet Government chose not to send aid, and instead took actions to exacerbate the famines Here is what is debatable: The Soviet Government chose to exacerbate the famine specifically to kill ethnic Ukrainians, rather than just peasants, or people living in those areas. For something to be a genocide, it needs the intent to eliminate the people of an identity. It is a descriptive, and not normative term. Some of history's worst atrocities do not fit the criteria. That does not mean they are "better" than genocides for the people who suffered and died.
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Jan 10, 2022 23:07
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CommieGIR posted:That appears to be the major scholarly debating point both here and in academia: Was it intentional? Or was it just a side effect of Stalin's industrialization coming at the same time as multiple famines combined with ethnic cleansing, etc. There are academic debates on the exact number of holocaust victims, but no one here is an academic and Question_Asker_1488 posting exclusively about the question if 6 million Jews really died is not actually interested in the scholarly analysis of the statistics from polish villages. The reasonable thing to do is to mock and insult him and promote instead a community for interesting people with unique life experiences and insights and not shutin political extremist roleplayers
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Jan 10, 2022 23:14
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Somaen posted:There are academic debates on the exact number of holocaust victims, but no one here is an academic and Question_Asker_1488 posting exclusively about the question if 6 million Jews really died is not actually interested in the scholarly analysis of the statistics from polish villages. The reasonable thing to do is to mock and insult him and promote instead a community for interesting people with unique life experiences and insights and not shutin political extremist roleplayers But that's not what he's doing? And the case for the Holocaust is a little more clear cut, what with the Nazis kinda having an entire book about "Exterminating the Jews" stuff.
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Jan 10, 2022 23:29
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CommieGIR posted:But that's not what he's doing? And the case for the Holocaust is a little more clear cut, what with the Nazis kinda having an entire book about "Exterminating the Jews" stuff. He is very much doing the very last thing, and thus informing the lack of good faith you detected.
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Jan 10, 2022 23:50
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CommieGIR posted:But that's not what he's doing? And the case for the Holocaust is a little more clear cut, what with the Nazis kinda having an entire book about "Exterminating the Jews" stuff. But the _1488 people aren't denying that there were abuses committed against the Jews, just trying to ask the question if the 6 million figure is really accurate. You know, for purely academic accuracy reasons Maybe there could be a mod approved thread for basement self-taught academics to debate the numbers, which killings are genocides, which don't meet the criteria and which are made up by the state department
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Jan 10, 2022 23:56
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FishBulbia posted:For something to be a genocide, it needs the intent to eliminate the people of an identity. It is a descriptive, and not normative term. Some of history's worst atrocities do not fit the criteria. That does not mean they are "better" than genocides for the people who suffered and died. Modern understanding of genocide stretches much further than the confines of ethnic groups or similar identities. I used to have a Greek roommate doing graduate programme in genocide studies, and he spent almost the entirety of our time of acquaintance talking about structural genocide (specifically, Brazilian favelas).
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Jan 11, 2022 00:05
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Somaen posted:But the _1488 people aren't denying that there were abuses committed against the Jews, just trying to ask the question if the 6 million figure is really accurate. You know, for purely academic accuracy reasons I think you are missing the point: I believe, personally, that the Holodomor is genocide. There's a lot of scholars that do. But whether Stalin went into the industrialization plan with the intent to cause mass death is what the definition is quibbling over. There's zero doubt about that with the Holocaust, its pretty much written down, they had literal meetings about doing exactly that. Nobody is arguing what Stalin did, especially failing to relieve the famine, was not criminal, but how much they intended to kill 8 million Ukrainians or that was the intended goal is the underlying meaning they are debating. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 00:09
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Modern understanding of genocide stretches much further than the confines of ethnic groups or similar identities. I used to have a Greek roommate doing graduate programme in genocide studies, and he spent almost the entirety of our time of acquaintance talking about structural genocide (specifically, Brazilian favelas). For sure, in sociology and the like the definition has expanded. For the most part, however, historians consider a genocide the deliberate destruction of physical life of individual human beings by reason of their membership with an identity, with the intent to destroy or otherwise diminish that identity. You're right, and intent is rarely spoken, but it's still the important part of the label. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 00:29
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:plus, who cares, they were literally nazis or kulaks This is the baseline discourse these curious scholars are engaging in where they are coming from. Any illusion that they argue in good faith and out of desire to further some kind of knowledge / theory must be viewed in light of this, and they should be afforded exactly as much respect in the responses they get as it implies. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 00:30
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steinrokkan posted:This is the baseline discourse these curious scholars are engaging in where they are coming from. Any illusion that they argue in good faith and out of desire to further some kind of knowledge / theory must be viewed in light of this, and they should be afforded exactly as much respect in the responses they get as it implies. i mean, that's just one poster out of many, and iirc the only one being that strong in their Opinions. thread's now mostly discussing some, uh, seedier parts of Stalin's illustrious biography
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Jan 11, 2022 00:35
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CommieGIR posted:I think you are missing the point: I believe, personally, that the Holodomor is genocide. There's a lot of scholars that do. But whether Stalin went into the industrialization plan with the intent to cause mass death is what the definition is quibbling over. There's zero doubt about that with the Holocaust, its pretty much written down, they had literal meetings about doing exactly that. From what I recall reading Stephen Kotkin's Waiting For Hitler the number 8 million would refer to the number dead all across the Soviet Union and upwards of half that would have been in Ukraine. I can't provide a quote from him since I had it on loan from the library but wikipedia seems to have a similar breakdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933#Estimation_of_the_loss_of_life quote:It has been estimated that between 3.3[126] and 3.9 million died in Ukraine,[127] between 2 and 3 million died in Russia,[128] and 1.5–2 million (1.3 million of whom were ethnic Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan. So it seems that sometimes the term Holodomor, which refers to the famine and genocide in Ukraine, is being used in a confusing manner in that the deaths from rest of the USSR during that famine are being included as having been in Ukraine?
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Jan 11, 2022 00:45
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https://www.axios.com/kazakhstan-president-claims-coup-nazarbayev-6b662edc-1221-4948-862b-5263bb4dfb6e.html As per this, there’s a version popular with some Kazakh dissidents in exile that the recent events were an attempt by Nazarbayev to overthrow Tokayev.
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Jan 11, 2022 01:12
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You guys are really making this whole Stalin issue far too complicated. All you really need to know is that everyone the lying imperialist media calls a good guy is actually bad (George W Bush, Angela Merkel, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, Queen Elizabeth, racist islamophobe war criminal B Hussein Obama, Hillary Clinton, Benjamin Netanyahu, Shah Pahlavi etc), and everyone the lying imperialist media hates is actually good (Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, Princess Di, Dennis Kucinich, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Minh, Mossadegh, Bashar al-Assad, etc) So what does they lying imperialist media say about Comrade Stalin, hm? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 11, 2022 01:48
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VitalSigns posted:All you really need to know is that everyone the lying imperialist media calls a good guy is actually bad (George W Bush, Angela Merkel, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, Queen Elizabeth, racist islamophobe war criminal B Hussein Obama, Hillary Clinton, Benjamin Netanyahu, Shah Pahlavi etc), and everyone the lying imperialist media hates is actually good (Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, Princess Di, Dennis Kucinich, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Minh, Mossadegh, Bashar al-Assad, etc) i mean, this but unironically lol (and with some additions/omissions to both of these lists) though basing your opinions on what the media (imperialist or otherwise) pushes might not always be the best solution, one way or the other also, honestly, i don't think it's a good look to put Bernie Sanders, Hồ Chí Minh and Saddam loving Hussain anywhere close to each other in any list, no matter what point you're trying to make (regardless though, i don't think this is a discussion for this particular thread) nurmie fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 02:25
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nurmie posted:i mean, this but unironically lol (and with some additions/omissions to both of these lists) I'm not sure you get what that post is saying/mocking.
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Jan 11, 2022 02:44
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Grape posted:I'm not sure you get what that post is saying/mocking. trust me i do. its just putting these particular people next to each other seemed kinda off to me
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Jan 11, 2022 02:47
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Grimnarsson posted:From what I recall reading Stephen Kotkin's Waiting For Hitler the number 8 million would refer to the number dead all across the Soviet Union and upwards of half that would have been in Ukraine. I can't provide a quote from him since I had it on loan from the library but wikipedia seems to have a similar breakdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933#Estimation_of_the_loss_of_life "Coincidentally" a whole bunch of the people who died in Russia just happened to be ethnic Ukrainians. (Kazakhstan is an entirely different story, of course, and it would be completely inappropriate to use Ukrainian terms to talk about that).
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Jan 11, 2022 03:59
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OddObserver posted:"Coincidentally" a whole bunch of the people who died in Russia just happened to be ethnic Ukrainians. (Kazakhstan is an entirely different story, of course, and it would be completely inappropriate to use Ukrainian terms to talk about that). It killed a whole bunch of people all across Ukraine, Southern Russia, and Kazakhstan. I'm not sure what your point it is.
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Jan 11, 2022 04:15
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America is keeping the Europeans out of the European security deal. Solid work folks. Gladio is over, we don't need Europe and the economic usage of politics means we are willing to sellout loving Europe! woohoo! We learned how well negotiating with the Taliban did for us in terms of locking in an exit strategy so let's transport it to the forefront of democracy and negotiate Ukraines future with Russia.
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Jan 11, 2022 04:24
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:America is keeping the Europeans out of the European security deal. good riddance, are they also gonna be finally withdrawing their troops/bases?
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Jan 11, 2022 04:50
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Truga posted:good riddance, are they also gonna be finally withdrawing their troops/bases? One would hope but hahahahah
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Jan 11, 2022 05:02
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yeah it was more of a joke question sorry
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Jan 11, 2022 05:08
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:America is keeping the Europeans out of the European security deal. Grouchio fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 05:39
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Grouchio posted:
C'mon grouch don't you have Al Jazeera playing 12 hours a day like I do?
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Jan 11, 2022 05:46
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Isn't it....bad that we just sold out the EU/Europe? Don't we need them for things?WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:C'mon grouch don't you have Al Jazeera playing 12 hours a day like I do?
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Jan 11, 2022 05:48
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