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Snooze Cruise posted:it should have been named "harry and kim: a love story"
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Jan 11, 2022 22:09
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it should have been named cspam custom title generator 2020
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Jan 11, 2022 22:10
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it's not nearly doomer enough for CSPAM
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Jan 11, 2022 22:13
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i know this is a year late unsurprising sentiment but my god does the battle system in Paper Mario Origami King not know what it wants to be. you can like feel the game being pulled in three different directions at once when it needs to settle down and figure out if it actually wants to be a turn-based RPG or not other than that the game is very charming and immaculately produced and I like it
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Jan 11, 2022 22:19
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i think that would be a bad title because most people don't know what cspam is
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Jan 11, 2022 22:19
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i know this is a year late unsurprising sentiment but my god does the battle system in Paper Mario Origami King not know what it wants to be. you can like feel the game being pulled in three different directions at once when it needs to settle down and figure out if it actually wants to be a turn-based RPG or not every paper mario game since ttyd has been extremely confused in terms of game design. even as someone who somewhat likes super paper mario the rpg mechanics are just completely wasted on it and it mostly just plays as an extremely slow platformer with a gimmick, any extended combat sequence is interminable and the platforming isnt much better. frankly none of them seem to really want, to be rpgs. Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 22:23
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Endorph posted:it should have been named cspam custom title generator 2020 yeah it owns
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Jan 11, 2022 22:24
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this is something i wish i had examples i could pull up, because i've definitely seen this in other games before, but origami king is one of those games where they seemingly didn't have confidence to commit to a design concept and decided to be a bit wishy-washy. so the fights are there but not totally necessary, and there's a few ways you can cheese them like paying off the toads to cheer you on, and all that. it's one of those things like where i don't particularly like it when games make things like boss fights skippable "if you don't like them" because like, it just sort of expresses a lack of faith in itself. it's like asking the player "I dunno about this game design, what do you think?" it would seriously be much better as a zelda-like with very basic overworld combat
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Jan 11, 2022 22:26
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even the 2D/3D gimmick in super paper mario isn't really well utilised at all either it's full of weird & creative ideas but the execution is pretty lacking in every regard except for some of the offbeat story moments which don't really make up for how much of a drag the rest of it is
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Jan 11, 2022 22:26
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i know this is a year late unsurprising sentiment but my god does the battle system in Paper Mario Origami King not know what it wants to be. you can like feel the game being pulled in three different directions at once when it needs to settle down and figure out if it actually wants to be a turn-based RPG or not are you talking about when the game wants you to fight paper mache constructs in real time?
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Jan 11, 2022 22:27
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Looper posted:are you talking about when the game wants you to fight paper mache constructs in real time? nah it's like, the combat where they have the puzzles, except you can pretty easily "solve" them by paying the toads a few hundred coins, and also there's no XP/leveling so unless you want practice or get ambushed there's not much incentive to do them except for money, which apparently is actually more reason than Color Splash (which i didn't play) had. it's just like, they had this idea but didn't want to fully commit to it so they made it a bit avoidable and cheesable in case you don't like it
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Jan 11, 2022 22:29
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:yeah it owns 
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Jan 11, 2022 22:31
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Last couple Paper Mario games really give off the vibe of not wanting to be a turn based rpg but being forced to or I guess maybe of really wanting to be a rpg but running into a bunch of restrictions from Nintendo that make them change course and leave the battles feeling really vestigial.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:31
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Feels Villeneuve posted:it's one of those things like where i don't particularly like it when games make things like boss fights skippable "if you don't like them" because like, it just sort of expresses a lack of faith in itself. it's like asking the player "I dunno about this game design, what do you think?"
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Jan 11, 2022 22:32
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Feels Villeneuve posted:nah it's like, the combat where they have the puzzles, except you can pretty easily "solve" them by paying the toads a few hundred coins, and also there's no XP/leveling so unless you want practice or get ambushed there's not much incentive to do them except for money, which apparently is actually more reason than Color Splash (which i didn't play) had. it's just like, they had this idea but didn't want to fully commit to it so they made it a bit avoidable and cheesable in case you don't like it oh, i mean i guess? i wish i could remember what i said about it last year but i don't think a battle system has to reward you with experience points to be "worthwhile," and plenty of actual rpgs let you turn off battles altogether
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Jan 11, 2022 22:39
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it's me the origami king stan
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Jan 11, 2022 22:41
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a battle system doesnt have to reward you with exp but it has to reward you with something thats at least somewhat tangible. and usually there's more of a dynamic to turning off battles. like wild arms lets you spend a little bit of money to skip random encounters, and you cant skip bosses.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:43
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i also get sometimes that the game is under the impression that there's an audience who really wants to see the story and doesn't care about the combat or puzzles which like, sure. not everything has to be a super tightly designed experience where everything including the game tuning and difficulty plays a part in the intended experience. it's more that sometimes this plays less as an accessibility thing and more a "asking the player to be the game desinger" problem (this is why i get kind of antsy when i see like, hyper-customizable difficulty settings)
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Jan 11, 2022 22:52
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I remember in Sticker Star I felt annoyed at battles because they would force you to waste stickers on nothing. I guess they probably gave you stickers back too (I can't even remember) but ideally the players would not consider engaging with your game's battle system a net negative.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:08
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Snooze Cruise posted:it should have been named "harry and kim: a love story" Eh, I got more of a perpetual fail-son vibe from harry while Kim is your constantly disappointed, but still supporting dad
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Jan 11, 2022 23:24
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Instead of boss battles, RPG chapters should culminate in challenging short-essay questions asking the player to correctly identify the themes and narrative devices used in the story.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:27
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i like a good cinematic unlosable boss. it's a guilty pleasure. using the tested "demi boss is the hardest boss" or "final boss has a mostly cinematic final form" formula
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Jan 11, 2022 23:28
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exquisite tea posted:Instead of boss battles, RPG chapters should culminate in challenging short-essay questions asking the player to correctly identify the themes and narrative devices used in the story. Ah, like The Witcher 3
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Jan 11, 2022 23:30
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i like a good cinematic unlosable boss. it's a guilty pleasure. demi boss???
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Jan 11, 2022 23:34
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i guess that's the wrong term, I mean like, the penultimate boss you fight just before the actual final boss
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Jan 11, 2022 23:36
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I'm fine with final bosses being a mostly cinematic thing, the intent is to (usually) give the appearance of an epic conclusion to a long and emotionally investing journey, which having to restart a whole bunch of times kind of works against.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:38
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yeah a lot of the time you get the issue where the story is hurtling toward a conclusion where if the pacing is off you can spoil it by having a brick wall at the very end, though it certainly can be done
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Jan 11, 2022 23:40
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i guess that's the wrong term, I mean like, the penultimate boss you fight just before the actual final boss the penultimate boss being the hardest is lame. real games have the hardest boss be a random fisherman guy you run into 2/3rds of the way through the game
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Jan 11, 2022 23:40
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Jazerus posted:the penultimate boss being the hardest is lame. real games have the hardest boss be a random fisherman guy you run into 2/3rds of the way through the game Yakuza 2 had the epic decision to make the hardest boss be a random guy with no name that has knife shoes and just shows up twice in the middle of the game without explanation of who he is
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Jan 11, 2022 23:41
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The experience points in Origami King don't go to Mario but instead go to you, the player, as you play--you get better at solving the puzzles as time goes on and they get more complex.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:42
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Yet Origami King wasn't a very good experience. Makes you think. It's a shame that Nintendo won't come up with a different IP for paper mario, or try greenlighting one more RPG just to see what happens.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:06
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tried jumping back into summon night and. i think i uh. might just be better off restarting with the ds port. i forgot that part of why i stopped playing this game was cause it was getting actively miserable cause the original ps1 version's balance is complete bullshit to the point that even the free battle maps, are seven levels higher than what they should be and don't give enough xp to be worth free battling on, and the actual chapter fights are ungodly punishing. i like this bonus chapter where you're fighting three summoner bosses at once and you can make it easier by baiting them to only attack you one at a time but it doesn't really change that much because all three of them have summon magic that hits across like eight tiles and does 80 damage when the strongest units you'll have have about 160hp and getting good healing magic is literal trial and error the funniest part is how this shows as early as the prologue cause the first time i tried playing the game, i got to the first fight in the prologue, and died, cause they make you fight two enemies who can both deal 1/4 of your health bar per attack, and no healing items. i remember when i tried the ds port they both had like half the attack and hp of the ps1 version. why is summon night ps1 so loving busted The Colonel fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 00:53
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Color Splash, Sticker Star, and Origami King seem to not like that they're RPGs. Which, like, you don't have to be. Just become the adventure game you want to be and we can all stop wasting our time pretending. Color Splash had the 1-2-3 knock out of dire combat, no rewards, and terrible controls for that combat that there is absolutely no way playtesters didn't alert them to.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:14
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There's also the bizarre BRAND PURITY decision to not allow the rpg games to make variations on classic Mario characters. So we just get traditional Mario enemies and Toads with no visual flair or individuality. And like the bob-omb in OK is cool but also making a joke about something you're doing that your audience hates or is at best ambivalent to while doubling down it kind of sucks.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:47
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tbf the people making the joke aren't the ones creating the rules about what is allowed in Paper Mario or not. Like, Intsys are the ones who are having to deal with Nintendo's restrictions and the stuff with Bobby is clearly them making the best of the situation they were given. They're not making that gag at the expense of the audience or anything. E: Like Intsys are a Nintendo studio and all but I don't think they're the guys creating the Mario brand rules.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:53
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Clarste posted:I remember in Sticker Star I felt annoyed at battles because they would force you to waste stickers on nothing. I guess they probably gave you stickers back too (I can't even remember) but ideally the players would not consider engaging with your game's battle system a net negative. You do get some stickers back as random drops, but it was namely coins to buy stickers with. Except uh, there were plenty of ways to get that in the field, and the field was littered with stickers anyways for the mandatory battles you had to do. The entire battle system in Sticker Star was self-defeating, and just wasn't even as fun to engage with as the first two games even if you did try to bite and play the game. Feels Villeneuve posted:i also get sometimes that the game is under the impression that there's an audience who really wants to see the story and doesn't care about the combat or puzzles which like, sure. not everything has to be a super tightly designed experience where everything including the game tuning and difficulty plays a part in the intended experience. it's more that sometimes this plays less as an accessibility thing and more a "asking the player to be the game desinger" problem Options are good, imo. Though there were some implementations of such a system I didn't like. Namely I don't really like the Idol system used in Bastion and Transistor, as the modifiers there just tended to make the game more annoying (It was also the kind of system where you tune up the game's difficulty instead of down.) Like enemies now had regenerating health, and they always had a predictable last ditch move you had to avoid, which did add difficulty, but not in a way I found interesting. If anything those modifiers just tended to add more busywork if anything. But otherwise I'm generally for customizable difficulty if it's in the game. There's a lot of people those tend to help out. SyntheticPolygon posted:tbf the people making the joke aren't the ones creating the rules about what is allowed in Paper Mario or not. Like, Intsys are the ones who are having to deal with Nintendo's restrictions and the stuff with Bobby is clearly them making the best of the situation they were given. They're not making that gag at the expense of the audience or anything. Yeah the IntSys devs are just as frustrated as the audience with the restrictions. Namely because it made their jobs that much harder as well. According to an interview, making memorable characters was very difficult to pull off when they're forced to look the same as several other designs the player would see in the game repeatedly. So the only thing they could do was making the writing for the standout characters distinctive and that was the only possible route they could go all in on.
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Jan 12, 2022 02:58
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Pungry posted:The experience points in Origami King don't go to Mario but instead go to you, the player, as you play--you get better at solving the puzzles as time goes on and they get more complex. Wish I could respec
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Jan 12, 2022 03:01
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shigeru miyamoto sucks
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Jan 12, 2022 03:09
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i just think origami king is leaps and bounds better than color splash and get kinda frustrated when people lump all those games together
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Jan 12, 2022 03:12
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SyntheticPolygon posted:E: Like Intsys are a Nintendo studio and all but I don't think they're the guys creating the Mario brand rules. miyamoto has really fossilized over the last two decades imo. or maybe he was just always very stubborn and that used to be a good thing for the quality of nintendo's games but is now a bad thing
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Jan 12, 2022 03:15
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