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Halloween Jack posted:Trinity was a program until she was 45 years old? This Trinity's family (ie: party) was evil robots, yes.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well no; you are arguing that Trinity wasn't reincarnated at all - that, beneath all the appearances, she remains bound to the same meat (carne). In this view, there is only one 90-something woman whose mind has been (repeatedly?) wiped, implanted with false memories, and uploaded into a virtual universe by a Cartesian demon for the purposes of torture. This woman-of-extradimensional-flesh has never actually touched a motorcycle, and ends the film lying in a chair someplace. We never actually do see what happens to her. (What's life like in the strawberry farm? Isn't it established that she and Neo will explode and kill everyone nearby if they hug?) Trinity was literally re-incarnated in that she was killed and then medically resurrected, kinda like the protagonist of Mass Effect 2. That's why the motorcycle repairwoman has inchoate memories of being a super-powered terrorist; she actually was. This is important for the same reason that she gets mad at the programs who were play-acting as her long-term family members: the matrix is not just a demiurgic illusion to be denied and escaped, but a place in which one's life and identity are important in their own right. She and Neo don't explode on contact because they have what you could call a very specialized form of computer telepathy, not pyrokinesis. Now, it's true: this is a story in which A) a character has a dimly-remembered past life and B) that past life has been disguised as fiction (instead of simply hidden on a series of scrolls in a cave or something). So, what you're saying isn't ridiculous. However, I do think what you're saying is ridicule, in that you are casting an otherwise unremarkable lost-memories-return plot point as though it makes the film chiefly about a contemporary online subculture at the exclusion of longer-standing leftist themes. Separately, it's weird to claim that there aren't people who identify with the Zion/Io characters and then in a followup post compare them (aptly, I think) to a bunch of other media featuring hidden refugee civilizations. Then you've got stuff like Hunger Games or Harry Potter or whatever which at least feature episodes in which the characters are laying low and roughing it - and, of course, right-wing fantasies about having to go to ground when the NWO comes knocking. MLSM posted:The funniest thing about Matrix 4 is how it’s ostensibly an anti-capitalist film by explicitly turning the matrix into a metaphor for capitalism (via the analyst) while still placing an emphasis on maintaining rugged individual identity — a fundamental contradiction. On the contrary, particularistic struggles and identity politics are often as or more revolutionary than bread and butter wage increases or whatever, c.f. Vladimir Lenin.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:24
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MLSM posted:The funniest thing about Matrix 4 is how it’s ostensibly an anti-capitalist film by explicitly turning the matrix into a metaphor for capitalism (via the analyst) while still placing an emphasis on maintaining rugged individual identity — a fundamental contradiction. Well, it's because the matrix has never actually been a metaphor for capitalism. Since things have been kinda veering off track in recent discussion, let's move back to the basics: what if we're in the matrix right now?? Like, specifically Matrix 4's incarnation (which is, conveniently, also the fourth fully-rebooted matrix). If we go by the protagonists of Matrix 4, we need to track down these messianic figures and... get them to bang? Doing so will accomplish... something? Of course, there is some mystical stuff about how Neo is the embodiment of the source code so, if he himself is happier, then so will be the universe around him. Feel good, get your groove back.... As in the end of Caddyshack, we're all gonna get laid! But, in the context of the series, Neo and Trinity are transparently intended to replace the deleted programs Architect and Oracle. "If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother." Matrix 3 ended with the restoration of the cosmic family unit, and Matrix 4's similar ending is contextualized by Lana Wachowski's candid interview about her parents' deaths. And there's nothing anticapitalistic here. A basic premise is that Matrix movies 1-3 were "the truth" that the machines are attempting to suppress, with the restoration of the cosmic family being a renewal and reaffirmation of that truth. But those forbidden texts presented just a bog-standard liberalism. Even in Ferrinus' hyperliteralistic take, the message is that free-market capitalism isn't so bad, compared to being foreverially tied up by hell squids.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:35
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The matrix films were always about individuals and how each person is valuable and can make a difference. The first film is the more typical messiah story, but even here Neo needed trinity and the love of an individual. The second and third reject the notion the messiah and demonstrate how systems use messiah stories to demand sacrifice and control. This could be working overtime for your company or dying in battle for your country. But Neo rejects this and chooses to save trinity and the individual vs humanity as a whole. Niobe further states this in revolutions when Morpheus states she never believed in the one. “No, but I believed in him (neo the human.” Victory isn’t achieved by wiping out the matrix, instead it’s learning to live in harmony with it and recognize the importance of each. Resurrections continues this. Neo does not get to trinity without significant help. He can’t even fly now. And trinity must choose, she can’t be forced. And together they again don’t wipe out the matrix, but choose to try to find ways to improve it.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:12
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checkplease posted:The matrix films were always about individuals and how each person is valuable and can make a difference. The first film is the more typical messiah story, but even here Neo needed trinity and the love of an individual. Okay but, with those generalities established and out of the way: what are you actually talking about? Improving war?
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Jan 12, 2022 00:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Okay but, with those generalities established and out of the way: what are you actually talking about? Improving war? So I mostly agree with you that this film is not trying to take down capitalism. It seems to critique aspects like the analyst but notably doesn’t remove him or the matrix system. Rather it accepts the current society , but pushes for direct action by neo and trinity to make the matrix a better place (rainbows in the sky, free minds again). Specifics are not given ,yes, but this is not unlike ideas that we can have our current capitalism and health care for all. It’s an optimistic call for individual action guided by love for others.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, it's because the matrix has never actually been a metaphor for capitalism. Okay, first off, the basic takeaway of all four movie is that capitalism is being foreverially tied up by hell squids. As of Resurrections, there isn't actually a "truth" that the machines are attempting to suppress. The Analyst states this flatly; while his predecessor was concerned with controlling facts and keeping secrets, the Analyst knows that humans are both kept more docile and exploited more efficiently if they're mired in anxiety and desperation completely regardless of what the facts are. That's why the new matrix is constantly winking and lampshading the fact that it is a matrix: the history of the Zion/01 war publicized as a video game series, "Simulatte", etc. The Architect's agreement that anyone who wants out gets to leave is actually in effect; it's just that many people don't want out (though plenty do, or at least once did, hence the high NPC population). So the question isn't, any more, how can we get everyone to understand how bad capitalism is? It is, instead, why is it that everyone keeps waking up and going to work every day despite it being blindly obvious and indeed available for public consumption how bad capitalism is?
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Jan 12, 2022 03:33
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, first off, the basic takeaway of all four movie is that capitalism is being foreverially tied up by hell squids. That would mean that Neo and Trinity are the only two people in the entire world who don't know the matrix is a simulation, and that everyone else is just not telling them for some reason. Having the story of Neo and Trinity's life be an in-matrix videogame is a mechanism of control that only works because the people it's controlling (the two of them) are made to believe it's fiction. That needs everyone else in the matrix to also consider it fiction, otherwise it'd get found out as soon as the first person not in on the scheme meets Neo. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 05:48
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HorseLord posted:That would mean that Neo and Trinity are the only two people in the entire world who don't know the matrix is a simulation, and that everyone else is just not telling them for some reason. In the first place, that's why their lives are heavily micromanaged by an entire platoon of subsidiary programs. In the second place, something being obvious isn't the same thing as something being officially recognized or likely to be acknowledged or discussed in polite/high-class company. To reuse an example from earlier in the thread, "We live in a simulation" is like "Epstein didn't kill himself". No one's ever going to say it on the nightly news and everyone's going to carry on like it isn't true, but that's not the same as it actually being a secret.
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Jan 12, 2022 09:04
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Ferrinus posted:the history of the Zion/01 war Oh I just got the IO/01 gag.
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Jan 12, 2022 10:46
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The decision to splice in actual footage from the 1999 film into Resurrections like the movie has to generate trailer-tier sequel hype while your sweaty arse is already firmly in the cinema seat is bafflingly embarrasing for Lana.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:11
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Ferrinus posted:In the first place, that's why their lives are heavily micromanaged by an entire platoon of subsidiary programs. In the second place, something being obvious isn't the same thing as something being officially recognized or likely to be acknowledged or discussed in polite/high-class company. To reuse an example from earlier in the thread, "We live in a simulation" is like "Epstein didn't kill himself". No one's ever going to say it on the nightly news and everyone's going to carry on like it isn't true, but that's not the same as it actually being a secret. In our actual world both Neil deGrasse Tyson and Elon Musk have said we live in a simulation. But them saying it doesn't really matter or do anything. If we did live in the matrix the machines could point to that sort of thing easily as like "listen, we did our side of the deal, we had the richest guy on earth and a big famous astronomer both announce it, nothing more we can do!" I think that is where matrix 4 is. People can say "we live in a simulation.... MAAAN" but it's almost a theological point. Distant and unimportant and unreal. Like in the old matrix it was secret secret. In the new matrix some scientist watching light bounce off a black hole could calculate the 4th derivative of some gravity wave and then write a boring paper saying mass is quantized in a way that indicates digital properties or whatever while no one cares in a real life way.
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Jan 12, 2022 17:09
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Oh my god it's literally started: https://kotaku.com/the-metaverse-is-already-here-for-cows-and-it-s-very-sa-1848335331
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Jan 12, 2022 19:11
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The Dave posted:Oh my god it's literally started: Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Mootrix is, you have to see it for yourself.
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Jan 12, 2022 19:15
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The Dave posted:Oh my god it's literally started: ...In order to change a human being... into this. *Heaves, struggling as he lifts a giant jug full of milk to show Neo*
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Jan 12, 2022 19:43
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Archer666 posted:...In order to change a human being... into this. Someone please photoshop the reveal of Morpheus but with a milk mustache
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Jan 12, 2022 19:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In our actual world both Neil deGrasse Tyson and Elon Musk have said we live in a simulation. But them saying it doesn't really matter or do anything. If we did live in the matrix the machines could point to that sort of thing easily as like "listen, we did our side of the deal, we had the richest guy on earth and a big famous astronomer both announce it, nothing more we can do!" precisely why comparing simulation theory to otherkin is reckless at best, straight-up evil at worst. completely useless thought peddled by charlatans and grifters has no business being conflated with identity and the actualization of self. who cares what dark energy/matter is; we clap for lana for 'jeering' warner brothers in her fatalistic 'love' story and exclaim how 'powerful' it is for 'our' community. like, no
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Jan 12, 2022 19:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In our actual world both Neil deGrasse Tyson and Elon Musk have said we live in a simulation. But them saying it doesn't really matter or do anything. If we did live in the matrix the machines could point to that sort of thing easily as like "listen, we did our side of the deal, we had the richest guy on earth and a big famous astronomer both announce it, nothing more we can do!" Right, I think this is the takeaway from the general world of the movie and from the Analyst's gloating. The Architect was really concerned with seamless secrecy because of a kind of idealism you could probably also locate in the original Morpheus: if people only knew, they'd wake up! But if that were the case, the mere existence of https://www.marxists.org should have brought the American empire to its knees years ago.
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Jan 12, 2022 19:55
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they should have called it Matrix: Sunk Cost Fallacy
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Jan 12, 2022 20:54
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Dark matter pisses me the hell off and simulation theory is right up there with it. "There's an invisible and imperceptible reason that I'm not wrong" has been used to justify stupid, dangerous poo poo from the crusades, phrenology, to believing the Earth being the centre of the universe.
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Jan 12, 2022 21:06
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what annoys me about simulation theory is when they spout the math nonsense "oh well if there's one reality and billions of sims then QED we're in the matrix" and i'm just like there are/have been/will be infinite realities. you buffoon. you absolute moron. i was driving to dollar general this morning and it really fully hit me that like in a liiteral and actual sense the entire universe is just my own perception, like even if there is an alpha centauri it's still true that everything i know about it is just stuff in my brain and like, wow, cool, so what do i win? and you know what, u don't win a prize or nothin. ultimate cosmic enlightenment is BUNK
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Jan 12, 2022 21:33
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like for real just take the stupid blue pill if u have the choice it's just not worth it lmao
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Jan 12, 2022 21:34
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The thing is that there's nothing cool outside the cave. Oh no we're looking at shadows of shapes and it's not real ok oh no and shakes don't have milk in them. At least matrix people got robot squids and raves. You figure out this is fake and still need to poo poo and get to work on time.
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Jan 12, 2022 21:51
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Without going back to read through the last 40 pages has there been a good take on why the new crew are all visually blue-pilled?
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Jan 12, 2022 22:48
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moths posted:Dark matter pisses me the hell off the gently caress lol
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Jan 12, 2022 23:59
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Vitamin P posted:Without going back to read through the last 40 pages has there been a good take on why the new crew are all visually blue-pilled? It's honestly a good question 
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Jan 13, 2022 00:30
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moths posted:Dark matter pisses me the hell off edit: Dark matter isn't a case of "our theory didn't match observation so we made up something to fill the gap". Rather, gravitational observations imply the presence of a whole lot of matter we can't detect via interaction with electromagnetic fields, i.e. different kinds of observations give us different answers as to how much stuff is in the universe. So this unknown stuff is called dark matter cause we can't see it and don't know wtf it is if it exists. Maybe some day someone will develop a Unified Field Theory which changes our understanding of gravity such that it obviates the need for the theorized dark matter. This wouldn't be some kind of "gotcha" to presence physicists, rather it would be hailed as a monumental discovery, one of the most important in human history. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 00:42
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moths posted:The thing is that there's nothing cool outside the cave. my new post-rock doomcore band: We Were Promised Raves edit: You Said There'd Be Raves ed2: The Rave is a Lie
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Jan 13, 2022 01:24
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Vitamin P posted:Without going back to read through the last 40 pages has there been a good take on why the new crew are all visually blue-pilled? In the original matrix trilogy, blue is the color for Zion and humans (see some of their clothes and ships). Green is well known as the matrix color. Yellow is machines/programs. So it’s not that they are trying to look like blue pills, but rather they are strongly representing their city (IO) colors.
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Jan 13, 2022 01:32
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bawfuls posted:this sounds like a miss understanding of what dark matter & energy are or why they are theorized to exist It could also be that we have an imperfect or flawed understanding of gravity and it's interaction with matter. Everything I hear about dark matter sounds like Ptolemy's little planet circles because it's just stacking an unknown unknown onto a known unknown. That's how we ended up "liberating" Afghanistan and Elon Musk, an adult, telling people we live in The Matrix.
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Jan 13, 2022 01:49
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, first off, the basic takeaway of all four movie is that capitalism is being foreverially tied up by hell squids. Well, again, you’ve got to actually do the legwork on this. It’s not enough to say that Thing A is bad and Thing B is bad, therefore they represent eachother. Let’s say that Niobe, in IO, begins selling the strawberries for profit. She herself doesn’t grow the strawberries, but she owns the strawberry manufacturing plant, and her gardeners are paid a decent wage by IOian standards. So: what point are the gardeners put into the pods? At what point does a squid intervene and cause this arrangement to be ‘bad’? Do we need to introduce a new tertiary reality to accommodate the new squids and new pods (as in the old speculation that the ‘real world’ is itself a simulation by even-more duplicitous machines)? We don’t even need the hypothetical strawberry-business scenario because, in the backstory of the films, capitalism obviously predates the invention of the AI. On the flipside, we denizens of Matrix-Earth could implement full communism worldwide and this, in your view, would accomplish little or nothing. (In fact, the machines would benefit a lot more from the improved quality of life. They want as many people as they can get, living as long as possible.) In short, it’s very easy to falsify your assertion. So, what ‘is’ being put into a pod? Well, simply that. The good guys plug eachother into their own customized pods all the dang time. (Did you ever ask yourself what’s ‘powering’ the Nebuchadnezzar?) The image of a person being ‘jacked in’ can’t tell us much of anything without the broader context - which returns us to the point that you haven’t yet established whether the machine society is capitalist or not. Repeating that there are distinct classes isn’t enough, because that was the case with all hitherto existing society. quote:why is it that everyone keeps waking up and going to work every day despite it being blindly obvious and indeed available for public consumption how bad [the alien squid conspiracy] is? It’s not actually blindly obvious at all. Like, you’re in the matrix and you encounter a coffee shop called “Simulatte”. How do we interpret this? Diegetically, it’s a lovely pun based on a 20-year-old videogame, effectively saying that the lattes are “so good they’re unreal.” It’s lame, to the point that I don’t really buy that the franchise is as successful as it appears to be. This is the stuff of struggling small businesses. They might as well give it legally-distinct Zelda-like accoutrements and call it “Ocarina of Grinds.” Of course, you interpret “Simulatte” as a message hidden in plain sight by the Illuminati to taunt us. The message is, like, lattes don’t actually exist. “U think that’s milk ur drinking?” So you’ve gotten dangerously close to pointing out the absurdity of your own assumptions. Why even bother with the matrix at all, at this point? As I’ve shown, actual capitalist baddies could just start a strawberry factory in IO. Call it Nioberries. Charge people admission to plug into the hovercrafts, etc. If the squids are capitalist, there’s no need for a matrix at all. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 02:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why even bother with the matrix at all, at this point? 
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Jan 13, 2022 03:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, again, you’ve got to actually do the legwork on this. It’s not enough to say that Thing A is bad and Thing B is bad, therefore they represent eachother. W-wait… why are we even assuming the strawberries are being sold for profit? Am I missing something here?
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Jan 13, 2022 04:01
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moths posted:It could also be that we have an imperfect or flawed understanding of gravity and it's interaction with matter. moths posted:Everything I hear about dark matter sounds like Ptolemy's little planet circles because it's just stacking an unknown unknown onto a known unknown. That's how we ended up "liberating" Afghanistan and Elon Musk, an adult, telling people we live in The Matrix. We can observe objects in space based on either how they interact with fundamental forces of the universe. This can be either gravity or electromagnetism (two forces which have not yet successfully been unified under a single theory). When we observe distant objects in space using both methods, the results produce a disagreement about how much stuff we are observing. It could be that both observations are correct, in which case there exists some "dark matter" which interacts with gravity but not electromagnetism. Or it could be that our understandings of one or both of these forces is inaccurate in a way that would resolve the observations. Most physicists presently think the former is the case, but some think it's the latter. That's pretty typical science, and the answer won't be resolved until someone discovers more evidence one way or another.
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Jan 13, 2022 04:10
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Ichabod Tane posted:W-wait… why are we even assuming the strawberries are being sold for profit? Am I missing something here? Forget it, Jake, it's SMG
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Jan 13, 2022 04:10
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Qualia posted:precisely why comparing simulation theory to otherkin is reckless at best, straight-up evil at worst. completely useless thought peddled by charlatans and grifters has no business being conflated with identity and the actualization of self. who cares what dark energy/matter is; we clap for lana for 'jeering' warner brothers in her fatalistic 'love' story and exclaim how 'powerful' it is for 'our' community. like, no I don't think its reckless at all. Thinking that you're really in a simulation and thinking that you're really innately Buzz Lightyear from toy story are examples of delusions. The biggest difference is that "we really live in the matrix" is a delusion that only concerns an individual, which is why it's also called truman show syndrome. While otherkin is a delusional state reinforced by a malignant social group of other sufferers who've created their own culture. There's something to study there because Otherkin used to be the former rather than the latter. They were the stereotypical nutters who got locked up in mental asylums because they thought they were Napoleon, but now they have the internet where they can at once aggirvate their delusions while also not risking getting institutionalized by saying their crazy poo poo out loud. A similar thing is how persicutory delusions went from being one guy thinking he was having his brain cooked by an air loom, to the online community of self declared gang stalking victims. It's perhaps a testimony to the rareness of "we live in a simulation" as a delusion that it hasn't also become its own weird subculture or online cult. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 04:25
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Everyone I've known in real life who gave any weight to the simulation theory were huge dipshits who used it as a reason to not care about anyone/anything that didn't give them pleasure. Its a good mental cover for people like Musk to continue to justify being awful. Otherkinning doesn't directly invite that behavior. e: Its kind of why the Matrix doesn't really represent the common use of simulation theory. Like other people have talked about, all of the characters are very invested in the running of the Matrix, the people inside of it and what the system means one way or the other. Nobody is going "The Matrix is just a simulation maaaaaan, chill out." Shiroc fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 04:34
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Shiroc posted:Everyone I've known in real life who gave any weight to the simulation theory were huge dipshits who used it as a reason to not care about anyone/anything that didn't give them pleasure. Its a good mental cover for people like Musk to continue to justify being awful. Otherkinning doesn't directly invite that behavior. I think it does. The defining feature of a delusion is that the untrue belief causes the disruptive and harmful behavior. Mooching off your parents in your late 20s because you can't get through a job interview without referring to yourself as neko-sama is absolutely awful. Shiroc posted:e: Its kind of why the Matrix doesn't really represent the common use of simulation theory. Like other people have talked about, all of the characters are very invested in the running of the Matrix, the people inside of it and what the system means one way or the other. Nobody is going "The Matrix is just a simulation maaaaaan, chill out." Probably because Elon Musk says this poo poo to magic away that he's a deeply evil man. He thinks nothing matters because if he fucks up bad enough he'll just get to wake up in the goo tank, reach in his prison pocket for a quarter and put it in the slot for another go. But the situation with the matrix is different, the consequences of the simulated actions are real, down to getting punched in the simulated face and getting a real nosebleed. Maybe if Elon does really believe this simulation poo poo, it wouldn't count as a delusion, because the incorrect belief could cause him to do something that is beneficial instead of something harmful. For example, if he paid me twenty dollars to prove it by throwing a toaster into his bathtub. I think that would benefit all mankind. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 04:41
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Ichabod Tane posted:W-wait… why are we even assuming the strawberries are being sold for profit? Am I missing something here? We definitely never saw any markets or discussions of payment in either Zion or IO. Seems more like a commune vs our modern cities.
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Jan 13, 2022 05:13
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HorseLord posted:I think it does. The defining feature of a delusion is that the untrue belief causes the disruptive and harmful behavior. Mooching off your parents in your late 20s because you can't get through a job interview without referring to yourself as neko-sama is absolutely awful. I don't know much about otherkinning but I think you're projecting the worst possible case of someone. Anyway working sucks, interviews suck, family support can be good and Neko-Sama might be a great comrade in the commune.
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Jan 13, 2022 05:37
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