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I died three times to the wolves in the first part of Yuffie's DLC in FF7R because my dumbass forgot how combat worked and I was just mashing attack. Relearning the intricacies of the combat in the remake and figuring out Yuffie's abilities was the best part of playing Intermission.
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Jan 14, 2022 02:07
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DrPossum posted:Where is the VI PR? https://twitter.com/FinalFantasy/status/1473142391574044683
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Jan 14, 2022 02:16
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zedprime posted:The reason FF5 is the only standout mechanics-are-good FF is because it is hard enough to require you to engage with the game in some creative fashion. It just blows out in completely the other direction where if you engage too much you ruin the game because there's so many awesome options and putting them together feels like cheating. Well yeah that's what I'm saying. Anyone can get through FFV with engaging with the job system at a minimum, like having a party of Knight/White Mage/Black Mage/Summoner or something, where they never have to deal with learning blue magic, never have to deal with Chemist mixing, and so on. I mean, sure, you can do those things and they make the game even easier, but you never have to engage with the game beyond "hit attack, occasionally cast magic and heal" and still beat it just fine. So is FFV poorly designed mechanically? Is the Four Job Fiesta just a sad attempt by people to make the game interesting because of its poor design? Though honestly I don't even really have a dog in this fight because I've only played the Pocket Edition of XV, I have no idea what the combat is like in the real version of the game. But considering you can beat FFV perfectly fine with a party of like, three Zerks and a White Mage (granted, with a good amount of grinding), I don't really see how "but you can just hold down the button and win" is some sort of death sentence for how good or bad XV's combat is. NikkolasKing posted:Fixed that for you. Most JRPGs are too easy and don't require you to actually understand or engage with the battle system. Chrono Cross is a great example My favorite JRPG battle system ever but you can absolutely bumble through it without understanding anything. And Shin Megami Tensei is a series that actually does force you to understand and engage with the battle system, as well as things like demon fusion. If you try to get through SMT just recruiting random demons from battles and never fusing, you're not going to get very far, and if you don't engage with buffs and debuffs as well as taking advantage of nullifying enemy turns with resistances, you're going to do even worse. This is why Matador is such a famously "difficult" boss in Nocturne, people didn't understand the game was saying "You need to actually be concerned about buffs and debuffs" when in a series like Final Fantasy it barely matters. Which doesn't make Final Fantasy bad of course, I think most people are into these games for the plot and characters anyway more than the combat. Which is why 6 seems to come up as people's favorites a lot despite magic being hilariously overpowered in that game to the point that the characters' unique commands are mostly worthless by the time you get espers.
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Jan 14, 2022 02:20
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DACK FAYDEN posted:they said February It's taking too long I want to replay it NOW
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Jan 14, 2022 02:37
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Twelve by Pies posted:Well yeah that's what I'm saying. Anyone can get through FFV with engaging with the job system at a minimum, like having a party of Knight/White Mage/Black Mage/Summoner or something, where they never have to deal with learning blue magic, never have to deal with Chemist mixing, and so on. I mean, sure, you can do those things and they make the game even easier, but you never have to engage with the game beyond "hit attack, occasionally cast magic and heal" and still beat it just fine. So is FFV poorly designed mechanically? Is the Four Job Fiesta just a sad attempt by people to make the game interesting because of its poor design? I also think FF15 combat is fine. It's a reasonable stepping stone between Type 0 and FF7.
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Jan 14, 2022 04:28
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zedprime posted:Any apparent ease of FF5 is an internet phenomena put together on the back of it being one of the most fun FFs to talk about after action. That describes the fiesta too. It's actually really hard. Putting together a strategy for some of the merged world and void bosses is a huge moment of gameplay synthesis compared to every other FF and is required from any party you happen to put together. That the internet has an index of how to beat every boss with every class has nothing to do with the fact that the end game of FF5 require you to engage with your jobs and/or abilities in an exact manner. You're along for the ride and need to engage in a deep manner to have a chance against NED. It really isn't. Like FFV is easy enough that young me could get through the game playing it on a poorly translated emulated version where half the text was still in Japanese. It's not FF6/FF8 easy but it's by no means a challenging game even if you just go for the obvious stuff. It had a reputation for being easy basically from the moment people outside of Japan could play it in any reasonable manner because it's really easy. The reason FJF is so popular is because the game is the kind of easy where going into it with limitations can be fun. Unlike FF7 where I doubt I'm going to finish my Fiesta run because it wasn't really fun because so much stuff is locked by plot progression instead of class progression. FF15 runs into the problem for me of feeling not like a midpoint between Type 0 and FF7R but LR and FF7R and I like both of those game's combat systems way more. The combat is like... fine is a good word for it. It isn't unplayable trash or anything but 15 is actually the FF I have the hardest time replaying because it feels so dull. Like I can complain about FF12's combat system for hours but at least with speedup and gambits I can make it go really quick. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 04:32
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DACK FAYDEN posted:they said February I want to believe that they saw someone post "the opera scene should be fully voiced" and now they're scrambling to fix this obvious oversight.
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Jan 14, 2022 05:03
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zedprime posted:Any apparent ease of FF5 is an internet phenomena put together on the back of it being one of the most fun FFs to talk about after action. That describes the fiesta too. It's actually really hard. Putting together a strategy for some of the merged world and void bosses is a huge moment of gameplay synthesis compared to every other FF and is required from any party you happen to put together. That the internet has an index of how to beat every boss with every class has nothing to do with the fact that the end game of FF5 require you to engage with your jobs and/or abilities in an exact manner. You're along for the ride and need to engage in a deep manner to have a chance against NED. Uh huh uh huh, Yeah sure, sure. Totally. Totally true. Anyway I put !Summon on my whole party and pressed The Bahamut/Syldra/leviathan buttons over and over and get by
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Jan 14, 2022 05:49
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Throw Money to Win
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Jan 14, 2022 06:10
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I feel like for most games if you throw a ranking system then bam suddenly you have a reason to engage more with the mechanics.
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Jan 14, 2022 09:34
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I feel the opposite, even when consistently getting the high rankings.
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Jan 14, 2022 10:14
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HD DAD posted:Throw Money to Win The last game to do that was Yakuza 7 but it's always fun when it pops up.
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Jan 14, 2022 10:45
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Uh huh uh huh, Yeah sure, sure. Totally. Totally true. Anyway I put !Summon on my whole party and pressed The Bahamut/Syldra/leviathan buttons over and over and get by HD DAD posted:Throw Money to Win
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Jan 14, 2022 14:46
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Does anyone know if there’s like an Imgur gallery or something of the original pre-rendered backgrounds from FFVIII? I know there’s one for VII, but all my searching for the same from VIII turns up discussions about bad AI upscaling or reproducing the backgrounds in higher resolutions. I am fine with the original SD background images. I just want to look at them but not have to play through the game again.
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Jan 14, 2022 15:02
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ImpAtom posted:FF15 runs into the problem for me of feeling not like a midpoint between Type 0 and FF7R but LR and FF7R and I like both of those game's combat systems way more. The combat is like... fine is a good word for it. Yeah. Maybe it is the middle between Type-0’s and FFVIIR’s combat, but if so, the middle between their combat systems feels bad. Perhaps this is a me problem, but I’ve always found that XV’s combat feels mushy and chaotic, in a way that isn’t true of FFVIIR or Type-0.
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Jan 14, 2022 15:20
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FF15 has a parry prompt that you will barely be able to use due to lengthy animation locks which take longer to resolve than the parry window, in a combat system which emphasises constant action against larges groups of enemies. Which to me at least, is pretty indicative of the quality of the game design
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Jan 14, 2022 15:27
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I really liked the Leviathan fight
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Jan 14, 2022 15:33
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DACK FAYDEN posted:they said February Plenty of time to play it before I must KILL CHAOS in March.
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Jan 14, 2022 16:25
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final fantasy 6 is the perfect valentine's day gift
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Jan 14, 2022 16:25
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:final fantasy 6 is the perfect valentine's day gift For Valentines Day I showed my crush the perfectly preserved corpse of my ex girlfriend I keep in the basement
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Jan 14, 2022 16:28
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thetoughestbean posted:For Valentines Day I showed my crush the perfectly preserved corpse of my ex girlfriend I keep in the basement Did you condense her into a magicite to boost your strength by 1 or are you confessing to a crime
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Jan 14, 2022 16:39
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thetoughestbean posted:For Valentines Day I showed my crush the perfectly preserved corpse of my ex girlfriend I keep in the basement shes just in a coma and could wake up any day now actually
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Jan 14, 2022 16:42
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Vincent, still, to this day, just really sucks
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Jan 14, 2022 16:45
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vincent owns. it also owned getting to materia keeper and using vincent's limit break for the first time
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Jan 14, 2022 16:49
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Vincent is part chaos and is thus my enemy
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Jan 14, 2022 16:50
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Vincent is cool when he's getting trolled by Yuffie.
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Jan 14, 2022 17:27
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I have to agree that FF5 is difficult, or at least it's hard for a mainline Final Fantasy game. I genuinely have no idea how many times I've beaten it and it's at a point now where it's not really hard anymore with some planning, but when I think back to my first run where things were unoptimized and I had less knowledge of how things worked it was a verrrry different experience. NED in particular is a total brick wall of a boss if you don't know all the tricks and have a strong party. Then there's all those examples of bosses who are weird mechanically like Atomos, Wendigo and the triplets in the trench who are not terribly intuitive to fight for a new player.
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Jan 14, 2022 17:32
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:vincent owns. it also owned getting to materia keeper and using vincent's limit break for the first time This is an iconic FFVII Vincent experience
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Jan 14, 2022 19:09
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Twelve by Pies posted:Well yeah that's what I'm saying. Anyone can get through FFV with engaging with the job system at a minimum, like having a party of Knight/White Mage/Black Mage/Summoner or something, where they never have to deal with learning blue magic, never have to deal with Chemist mixing, and so on. I mean, sure, you can do those things and they make the game even easier, but you never have to engage with the game beyond "hit attack, occasionally cast magic and heal" and still beat it just fine. So is FFV poorly designed mechanically? Is the Four Job Fiesta just a sad attempt by people to make the game interesting because of its poor design? "RPG" colloquially means "there's a significant plot element and number goes up"; that is, there is a hard ratcheting down of the difficulty based on time spent in-game. While originally derived from rules for balancing tactical sims with asymmetrical elements, its use in pacing and gating campaigns made it an easy way to expand the target market and make more money by loosening required execution without making people feel bad about themselves by selecting "easy mode" even though if they didn't want to feel SOME systems mastery they could just read the strategy guide and get the plot for $15. Within this, abstracted combat means that primary player interaction is setup. Can't be reliably "hard" because of that preassumption that difficulty must continually ratchet downward, only "punishing of poor decisions or bad luck for a relatively long time", but it can have a wide range of "response" or "agency"; FF5 is simultaneously extremely "easy" (in that a squad of four zerks walked in circles when necessary will eventually walk-in-circles their way to a zero-interaction NED kill) but also extremely "responsive" (in that a level 1 mini frog Chemist accompanied by three corpses can also do an NED kill.) And action combat means that primary player interaction is precise mechanical input. The definition is still that number goes up, though, and bad input will eventually win, so the response is measured by the divergence in results between it and good input. In FF15, this is relatively low; there are not really any high-required-execution options, and low-required-execution options don't carry a very significant bonus for unexpectedly precise input as that's never really been a thing in offline FF and would turn off some people who weren't expecting it (not that it can't be done in a similar system, see Mario RPG or Mother 3.) So "difficulty" isn't the right term, but "response" is, and by that measure 5 is much more responsive.
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Jan 14, 2022 19:43
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Or, considering there are lv 1 Speedruns of FFXV as well, which requires considerably more knowledge AND execution then a normal play, everyone's talking out their rear end and FF as a series is one that both rewards skill and knowledge by enabeling exeptional feats, but has the levers and knobs avaliable just brute force with raw numbers, with different installments just asking different questions of what 'skill' and 'knowledge' is. Even XIV Savage Raids can be brute forced if you just wait an expansion later for the level and gear cap to go up. Such is the nature of the RPG- it's rare the obstacle you cannot force your way past with enough XP and GP, but also one you can usually clear well earlier then intense did you know the tools for the job. It's a feature, not a bug, of how the entire genre is constructed. Mr. Locke fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 19:58
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Going into FFXV after beating VIIR the combat is huge downgrade in quality, holy poo poo. I had to put it down, the downgrade in quality was just too steep to enjoy. The world was interesting to look at but it's huge and empty. I tried playing FFXII again too but something seems off about the frame rate compared to playing it on PS4.
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Jan 14, 2022 20:33
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Mr. Locke posted:Or, considering there are lv 1 Speedruns of FFXV as well, which requires considerably more knowledge AND execution then a normal play, everyone's talking out their rear end and FF as a series is one that both rewards skill and knowledge by enabeling exeptional feats, but has the levers and knobs avaliable just brute force with raw numbers, with different installments just asking different questions of what 'skill' and 'knowledge' is. Level 1 speedruns are not how the overwhelming majority of players - even relatively skilled players - are going to encounter the game on their first playthrough. Saying that it's possible to complete a game in an absurdly counterintuitive way with a lot of skill and planning is not an endorsement of the game's combat systems as a whole. I feel like people are reading a critique on the game as a whole into a critique on the game's combat systems, but that's hardly the intention, here. Undertale is one of the most beloved and celebrated games of the past decade, and its non-Genocide combat gameplay is around the level of a decent phone game. FFXV is great as a visual novel with the impression of a complex action combat system to break up the pacing, but when directly comparing its combat to FF7R's combat - which is what prompted this discussion in the first place - it's simply not a contest. Vermain fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 21:10
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Mr. Locke posted:Or, considering there are lv 1 Speedruns of FFXV as well, which requires considerably more knowledge AND execution then a normal play, everyone's talking out their rear end and FF as a series is one that both rewards skill and knowledge by enabeling exeptional feats, but has the levers and knobs avaliable just brute force with raw numbers, with different installments just asking different questions of what 'skill' and 'knowledge' is. The difference IMO, which becomes clear when using the word "response", is that the FF5 level 1 involves an exceptionally high degree of success in the complex core system and a lack of failure in simple subsystems while the FF15 level 1 involves a lack of failure in the simple core system. In one you can find a simple all-purpose setup like "dualwield on every melee" or "Chicken Knife damage is just spikier on bosses because the !Flee has to miss, but it's still good" and have numbers-agnostic success at first, then push it to lower and lower numbers levels with "I could probably just not bring a healer if there was no Almagest, I wonder if that head is weak to any instakills" or "actually !X-Fight is 266% damage with it rather than 200% that's even better", and eventually arrive at  where your power lives completely outside of the forced scaling or anything the devs really concretely imagined; in the other you don't really do anything you're not already trying to in every fight anyway, just have the penalty for not doing the thing increased until you must always do the thing (which must be simple enough for someone wanting to rely on that 99 in the menu to squeeze out a few of; numbers change its quantity not its quality.)But, also, Vermain posted:Undertale is one of the most beloved and celebrated games of the past decade, and its non-Genocide combat gameplay is around the level of a decent phone game. FFXV is great as a visual novel with the impression of a complex action combat system to break up the pacing Complexity, response, crunchiness, not bothering at all to distinguish it from difficulty, whatever you want to call it, isn't a measure of whether a game's enjoyable or not in itself, it's at most a measure of how many different ways can be found to enjoy it. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 21:17
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Vermain posted:Level 1 speedruns are not how the overwhelming majority of players - even relatively skilled players - are going to encounter the game on their first playthrough. Saying that it's possible to complete a game in an absurdly counterintuitive way with a lot of skill and planning is not an endorsement of the game's combat systems as a whole. And most people don't kill NeoExDeath as a lv 1 Frog Chemist but that was marked as a point in V's favor. Besides, people are real bad at voicing straightforward poo poo- XV's combat is bad (on Noctis and to a lesser extent Igniz) because it's weightless, heavy on context commands, and flanks you with three borderline-useless fuckers outside of said context commands at any given time, not because there's a lack of mechanical substance or skill or player expression. That's all there, and it lets you do some amazing poo poo that just isn't fun or satisfying to pull off because of the flaws with the base. (XV is a better game if you just play as Gladio or Prompto but that wasn't even a thing for a while in XV and still isn't amazing)
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Jan 14, 2022 21:27
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Mr. Locke posted:And most people don't kill NeoExDeath as a lv 1 Frog Chemist but that was marked as a point in V's favor. Besides, people are real bad at voicing straightforward poo poo- XV's combat is bad (on Noctis and to a lesser extent Igniz) because it's weightless, heavy on context commands, and flanks you with three borderline-useless fuckers outside of said context commands at any given time, not because there's a lack of mechanical substance or skill or player expression. That's all there, and it lets you do some amazing poo poo that just isn't fun or satisfying to pull off because of the flaws with the base. It's bad because of both actually. It's weightless boring and you spend the majority of your time doing a very very small number of things to interact with combat at all because it's also incredibly simple and empty and what choices are there are marginal improvements o er one another.
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Jan 14, 2022 21:46
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:you spend the majority of your time doing a very very small number of things to interact with combat at all because it's also incredibly simple and empty and what choices are there are marginal improvements o er one another. every Final Fantasy game.txt
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Jan 14, 2022 21:54
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FF15 didn’t have anyone I wanted to marry, so it’s a bad game
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Jan 14, 2022 22:02
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FF15 is trying to convince you you're playing a character action game though and not a NES game in real time, and does a real bad job of it
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Jan 14, 2022 22:02
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My problem with FFXV is Gladiolus should have had a bigger, juicier butt.
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Jan 14, 2022 22:04
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i love final fantasy
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Jan 14, 2022 22:05
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