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BonerGhost posted:What is the rationale behind this? Pretty much everything else I've seen in code makes obvious sense. I can't wrap my mind around this one. Well, I went back and checked, and it only specifies minimum of 1/4". So this goes under workmanlike. The reason is exactly what you see in the picture: if you have that much jacket inside the box you're going to also leave too much wire in the box. It's a mess and leads to overfilled boxes, which is a legit safety concern for many reasons. In this particular case there may be enough jacket that when pulled back out there will be enough slack to properly attach it to the joist above. If not and there isn't any other slack those should be re-run.
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Jan 7, 2022 14:32
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Motronic posted:In this particular case there may be enough jacket that when pulled back out there will be enough slack to properly attach it to the joist above. If not and there isn't any other slack those should be re-run.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:43
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Slugworth posted:Would those in-wall splices be appropriate in that case? Asking because I'm about to replace a box that has absolutely no slack in the nm, and I suspect probably isn't installed right in any way, this, probably not stapled to the joist. Expecting a poo poo show when I remove the very broken box that they jerry-rigged to attach the outlet to. If it's in a finished wall and it's a retrofit you are exempt from the securing requirement. If it's still too short, sure, you can use one of those. If it's in an unfinished wall just throw in a handybox and extend from there.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:46
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I'm trying to figure out where to plug in a ground wire for a new circuit in this sub panel. I'm using a plug-on-neutral so I know where the hot and neutral will go (into the breaker). The existing circuits are both grounded via conduit, but as you can see in the bottom I'm bringing in some Romex via PVC box so I need to use a ground wire. The two used bars on the left appear to be bonded, to my eye. The one on the far left just has a ground wire that goes out the box and physically to ground. The other on the center left has the neutral wire from the main panel, the neutral from the circuit on the left (it's using a normal breaker) and also appears to be bonded to the panel via that green wrapped cable that's clamped into the box. My guess is that everything is electrically bonded and so it's a matter of aesthetics keeping ground and neutral separate. My breaker is going to be on the right side, so would it be alright to put the ground wire into the far right bar? Also as you can maybe surmise, I'm reusing existing conduit on the right, plus adding some of my own on the bottom. Is it alright to splice those 3 runs together into the panel, and add in a 4th wire to run into the breaker? Or does that need to be done somewhere else? 
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Jan 8, 2022 19:46
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FISHMANPET posted:I'm trying to figure out where to plug in a ground wire for a new circuit in this sub panel. I'm using a plug-on-neutral so I know where the hot and neutral will go (into the breaker). The existing circuits are both grounded via conduit, but as you can see in the bottom I'm bringing in some Romex via PVC box so I need to use a ground wire. The two used bars on the left appear to be bonded, to my eye. The one on the far left just has a ground wire that goes out the box and physically to ground. The other on the center left has the neutral wire from the main panel, the neutral from the circuit on the left (it's using a normal breaker) and also appears to be bonded to the panel via that green wrapped cable that's clamped into the box. The "inside" bars should be neutral and the "outside" bars should be ground. Use the appropriate one on either side. What's concerning is this appears to be a subpanel and I'm pretty sure that green screw is the ground/neutral bond, which should NOT be in there if it is a sub. I could be wrong about the function of that screw since I don't have a cut sheet of that penal in front of me of course.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:31
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As best I can tell, it's this panel but installed "upside down" because of where the existing feed was from the main panel. But for sure it's a 20 slot QO panel. Does it matter if it's a sub panel off a sub panel? We have a separate outdoor main disconnect, then that's connected to the main panel (which I believe technically makes the main panel a sub panel) and then this sub panel is fed off the "main" panel. This was all installed rather recently by an electrician whose code knowledge I'd trust. The manual for the panel just says "install bonding screw if required by local code" and doesn't even say for sure that is the bonding screw. It was also viewed and by the inspector, though not when it was completely done (and the inspector wasn't that thorough anyway...), and it's possible that one of the other electricians on the crew could have done something that he shouldn't have.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:13
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FISHMANPET posted:As best I can tell, it's this panel but installed "upside down" because of where the existing feed was from the main panel. But for sure it's a 20 slot QO panel. Does it matter if it's a sub panel off a sub panel? We have a separate outdoor main disconnect, then that's connected to the main panel (which I believe technically makes the main panel a sub panel) and then this sub panel is fed off the "main" panel. No, it doesn't matter if it's a subpanel off of a subpanel or anything else. What matters is where your ground-neutral bond is. That needs to be in one place and one place only. That place is never a subpanel. It could be your main disconnect, it could be your main panel, I've even seen it in meter troughs and mast heads. But never in a subpanel. Maybe somebody here will recognize that specific panel and know if that's the bond screw or not. I'm guessing it is because it looks like it's screwed into the bonding bar for the neutrals and I'm guessing that the bonding bar for the ground are right under that.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:32
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So as best I can tell that is the bonding screw, the panel on the right on this video is the same style as what I have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA0uKwgU7g4 It looks like it's something that's ordered separately and has to be explicitly installed, so it wouldn't be accidentally left in. There's also no actual ground bars in the panel, like I said, those four bars you see in the picture are all connected. And in addition to that bonding screw, the green wire in the bottom left is connected to the neutral bar as well as the bushing in the bottom middle of the panel. I checked in my main panel, and it doesn't have the bonding screw installed, and it does have grounding bars distinct from the neutral bars. So this all seems intentional, rather than a mistake. Again, not sure if it's relevant, but this was a new panel using existing wiring from the house to the (detached) garage. So there's no dedicated ground wire (beyond the metal conduit that travels underground, and the electrician had to do a reduced neutral because of what conductors were available, and power the subpanel with a 30 amp breaker from the main panel, even though the hot conductors are much larger than what's needed for only 30 amps.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:03
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I'm not familiar with that exact panel but I've never seen a big green screw on a neutral bar that wasn't the bonding screw.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:06
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Rufio posted:I'm not familiar with that exact panel but I've never seen a big green screw on a neutral bar that wasn't the bonding screw. Same. And I'm sticking with "it's probably been done wrong". I don't have enough information to be 100% sure, but like......no, your gound/neutral bound for the house shouldn't be in an outbuilding.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:11
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Looking at everything it really seems like this was done intentionally rather than by mistake, and the electrician was very intentional about how this panel was wired up. He even had to discuss it with the inspector beforehand to make sure it would be OK. But I can't find anything to disagree with Motoronic's statement that you should never have multiple ground neutral bonds. So I guess I'll be giving him a call on Monday to see if I can figure out what's up.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:16
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That looks like a Square D Homeline series panel. I'm the first to admit that I am not an electrician but I did just buy a similar if not identical panel and did some "research" on whether I was supposed to install the green screw or not. As far as I could tell the green screw always comes with the panel but isn't intended to be used if the panel will be a sub. The Homeline series panel that I bought doesn't come with ground bars so that was confusing too. I had to buy that separately. Be sure you get a compatible bar, different panel brands have different ground bar designs that won't work with each other.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:52
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FISHMANPET posted:Looking at everything it really seems like this was done intentionally rather than by mistake, and the electrician was very intentional about how this panel was wired up. He even had to discuss it with the inspector beforehand to make sure it would be OK. But I can't find anything to disagree with Motoronic's statement that you should never have multiple ground neutral bonds. So I guess I'll be giving him a call on Monday to see if I can figure out what's up. Some electricians (and inspectors) seem to get confused about outbuilding subpanels. I'm guessing you have one or more ground rods there, and that's probably the big green wire that's been bonded to the conduit, and presumably the grounding rod(s) have been also. And that's good and necessary for an outbuilding. But then they get confused about the ground/neutral bond because there's another set of ground conductors. Or am I wrong and have just discovered something else wrong about this install (no ground rods). Because I sure as hell wouldn't bond my ground rods through conduit, but who knows what the custom is where you are.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:00
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It does have a dedicated ground wire going to a bar into the ground - that's the bare copper wire on the far left bar. I used my electric meter to do some continuity testing (with the power off!) and I can confirm that ground and neutral are bound together. My guess is that if I wanted to separate them, I'd need to get a ground bar, move the thick ground wire to it, move the green wire in the lower left to the ground bar, and take out the bonding screw. But I'll talk the electrician first to see what he says about why he did it that way, before I touch anything.
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Jan 9, 2022 02:14
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My inspector had me drive 2 spikes and unhook the house ground for my outbuilding. I would need to open it to see if neutral/ground are bonded in the sub. 
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Jan 9, 2022 02:56
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spf3million posted:That looks like a Square D Homeline series panel. I'm the first to admit that I am not an electrician but I did just buy a similar if not identical panel and did some "research" on whether I was supposed to install the green screw or not. Pretty sure that's a QO panel. Homeline still uses the stabs for the busbars, even for PON-compatible panels. QO uses the clips. That and Homeline has the neutral bars that run the full length of the busbars, which I actually prefer over the 'everything up by the main breaker' design of QO.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:06
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FISHMANPET posted:It does have a dedicated ground wire going to a bar into the ground - that's the bare copper wire on the far left bar. I used my electric meter to do some continuity testing (with the power off!) and I can confirm that ground and neutral are bound together. My guess is that if I wanted to separate them, I'd need to get a ground bar, move the thick ground wire to it, move the green wire in the lower left to the ground bar, and take out the bonding screw. On grounding: you should have a minimum of 2 ground rods 6' apart for the outbuilding. They should be attached to the same ground bar that everything in the outbuilding uses, and the ground from your feed (from the house) should also have it's ground attached to this same bar, and that bar should be bonded to the case of the box (appears to be done with the thick green wire). The more I look at this the more questions I have. Why is what appears to be the feeder neutral undersized? Where is the feeder ground conductor? Is that what all of these "discussions" with the AHJ were about? Under what provision(s) did they allow that? Is this why the AHJ has him bond the ground and neutral at the panel? Was this a conduit fill issue they were trying to work around cheaply?
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Jan 9, 2022 17:00
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So as a preface, this was all done by licensed electricians and with proper permits, so from a "naïve homeowner" perspective, I made a good faith effort to get all this work done correctly. Nothing here was snuck in after the inspector had left or hidden from the electricians or anything like that. This subpanel is fed from some conduit/wire that was laid probably between 1965 and 1971 to feed an older sub panel, and that probably wasn't done to code. In 1965 the house's 60 amp service/fuse box was replaced with a 100 amp service/breaker box. The subpanel out in the garage was a fuse box, and the electricians who took it out said it was probably a used fuse box when it was installed in the garage originally. That fuse box had all sorts of problems that I won't get into. It was fed by a 50 or 60 amp breaker in the main panel. The sub panel provides all the power for the garage, which included lights and (based on discussion with the PO) a beer fridge, and importantly, a 240v welder. So the two hots were much bigger than the neutral. I'm not sure if that would have been to code at the time, but my understanding of 240V and a reduced neutral is that at least, electrically, that works, because most of those amps are traveling on the hots and never needing the neutral. It also doesn't have a distinct ground wire, but it's metal conduit and it runs underground. This work was part of a larger project the remediate all the remaining knob & tube in the house, replace the old panel since it was full, and upgrade the service to 200 amps. We tried to keep the scope from spiraling, but clearly that fuse panel in the garage needed to go, but we still needed electricity out there. The conduit from the house to the garage runs under a brick patio, and then the concrete pad for the newer half of our four car garage. And because of the shape of the house and the backyard and such, it would be really difficult (aka expensive) to run new conduit, and they didn't want to try and pull new wire through the existing conduit. In fact it would be so difficult, the electrician (and the inspector) said the easiest way to get more power out to the garage would actually be to run a new service from the street to the garage (and the panel is sized/setup to make that easy when the time comes) rather than try and run off the main panel in the house. Because of the reduced neutral, the sub panel is now fed by a 30 amp breaker in the main panel. Obviously "I had work done by a licensed electrician and properly inspected" does not guarantee that everything is perfect. And in fact, the inspector spent very little time looking at anything, and from what I heard from an unrelated electrician that was doing the wiring for my new Minisplits, the inspector has kind of a reputation as not always being super thorough. But the electrician that lead the whole job, and did most of the direct work for the sub panel specifically, he gave of huge "code compliance" vibes. He knew a lot of things, was really focused on making sure things were correct (and so had to spend a half day fixing things the knob & tube crew did while he wasn't there), and even spent a fair amount of time talking with my wife, who has a PhD in Adult Education, on strategies for doing training in the company to improve their skills and code knowledge. So, it's possible that he did it wrong, but I have a lot faith that he did everything there with intention, that he knows a ton about code, and wants to do correct and code compliant work.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:45
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Motronic posted:Yeah, I didn't mean you couldn't find bulbs for them, I meant that you can probably only find exactly one color temperature, brightness, non-dimmable and it's gonna be a CFL. There is no upgrade path like there would be for a more standard bulb base. Could I, a dummy, replace these on my own? I've not actually had to do any home electrical work before but if goons say that it's easy to retrofit these cans then I am willing to be taught. Still need to go out and get a voltage meter to see if these are still live...
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Jan 9, 2022 21:54
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C-Euro posted:Could I, a dummy, replace these on my own? I've not actually had to do any home electrical work before but if goons say that it's easy to retrofit these cans then I am willing to be taught. Still need to go out and get a voltage meter to see if these are still live... Most of the LED pucks I've seen (admittedly, I'm using higher end stuff and you should too because it's much nicer) are very easy to wire and install. From what I recall of your pic it looks like you have everything you need, and would need to learn how to cut MC, install it into a box nut, etc but none of it is difficult. You won't even need to use wire nuts, as most of the nice stuff already has lever locks or similar. Just strip the cables from your old light the correct amount and push them in. Then you stuff all that mess back in the ceiling and let the clips on the puck itself hold it up in the ceiling.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:24
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Is this a plate for some kind of old phone wiring?
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Jan 10, 2022 21:16
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Danhenge posted:Is this a plate for some kind of old phone wiring? Could be but probably for an old TV or FM antenna. In either case it's low voltage and not a safety concern. https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5446175/il_570xN.235948347.jpg
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Jan 10, 2022 21:22
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What, you don't need to rotate your roof antenna with a motor to get a better signal?
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Jan 10, 2022 22:21
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I've got a fixed mount antenna on my roof and so wish I had a motorized mount. We had a motorized mount growing up and could pick up stations in three different directions!
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Jan 10, 2022 23:20
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Can anyone confirm that retrofits don't require stapling wire behind walls? Or in this case, inside the ceiling? I'm planning on updating the lighting in my kitchen, and one of the options is installing a bunch of can lights/pucks. Currently it's a single 2x 4' CFL tube fixture, so I'd need to run a bunch of wire for this option. Do I need to secure this wire, or can I just leave it sitting on the ceiling drywall? Follow-up: is there some happy medium that I can do that will be less ugly but also doesn't require tearing out a ton of drywall? I don't want future me to get mad at current me. Otherwise, it's 1st floor on a 2-story, so there's no insulation that I'm aware of, but also no easy access from above. Any other gotchas I need to be aware of? Looking at an example, the driver is a metallic junction box with the termination inside. Can I daisy chain to other lights from this box, or is 1 connection all it can do? it's got a knock-out on each side, but I don't know if that's just for flexibility instead of through-wiring. And to be sure, this driver box doesn't need to be accessible without removing the puck, right? And it doesn't need to be mounted, it can just chill on top of the drywall? edit: Here's a thought: Best case, the existing hole/junction box lines up with where I'd install a light. Would I remove the existing box and terminate to the can's junction box and be OK? Or does the existing junction box need to stay? Worst case, the existing hole does NOT line up. Could I drywall over a handy box if the light is within a certain distance? Or would I need to put a cover over the existing junction box and leave it accessible? I'd like to avoid running new wire all the way from the switch, but at the same time I don't like having a cover more or less permanently installed. DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 16:22
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Junction boxes have to be accessible, so if you put in a box to do a splice, you can't drywall over it, you'll have to put a cover on it so you can get in there. As to how the device can be wired, depends on the device. If you've got something in mind already, share a link.
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Jan 12, 2022 21:08
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FISHMANPET posted:As to how the device can be wired, depends on the device. If you've got something in mind already, share a link. This is a random example of what I'd be considering, but it's by no means the one I've selected: https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/217842/PLT-93090.html Several I've spot checked are similar construction in that the driver has a junction box with knockouts. FISHMANPET posted:Junction boxes have to be accessible, so if you put in a box to do a splice, you can't drywall over it, you'll have to put a cover on it so you can get in there. Right, that's my understanding, but the puck lights are kind of throwing me off the way they're done. Seems like they defy that... we just had a screen porch built, and there are 4 random LowesDepot pucks that the contractors installed, and the driver box is just laying up in the ceiling with no way to access it save for removing the puck. And that was done with permits and by electricians, so I assume it's kosher to just leave it up there? Don't know if the inspector actually looked in there the final, though, so I dunno. Haven't checked to see if they're daisy chaining from light to light, but there's no junction box otherwise up there so I'm assuming they are (full disclosure: they installed normal cans and then totally hosed up the holes, so they had to re-cut the holes bigger and put bigger pucks in, so with that I assume they were daisy chained originally and didn't change at all). edit: so I just remembered that the existing kitchen light is a tube CFL, and as such might be its own junction box and likely doesn't have a separate junction box in the ceiling. Haven't checked, but this raises confidence that I should be able to make something work. DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 22:24
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You're going to be limited with box fill for those LED j-boxes. Those boxes are pretty tiny, typically. Of course, the spec sheet doesn't list it, but I'm guessing, based on memory, you have a box of about 3"x5"x1", so 15cu inches at best. There's also usually the power transformer in there, so in practice, it's probably more like <10cu. Enough for one 14ga/12ga NM in and one out, but certainly not hub-and-spoke from a single box. You don't have to fasten the NM between the boxes if it's not accessible. If you open up drywall later, you do have to fix it properly. The boxes can just chill on the drywall, but if you can, run a screw to attach it to the nearest joist. Leave yourself some extra slack in the NM between (not loops and loops), so you have some play to work with later. This kind of install is exactly what these were designed and approved for.
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Jan 12, 2022 23:17
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Your puck light is effectively an access panel making the junction box accessible. Or something like that.
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Jan 13, 2022 00:42
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Guy Axlerod posted:Your puck light is effectively an access panel making the junction box accessible. Or something like that. If you don't need more than a screwdriver to see the wire nuts, it's accessible.
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Jan 13, 2022 01:04
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I installed one in my closet that just had the mousetrap style springs — just pull down, and it’s accessible. I just secured the little metal junction box + color temp selector thing to a nearby joist and it was all good. Romex into that box (metal knockout… no grommet which bummed me out, but it doesn’t move + it is Romex) and was done. That incoming run though, I didn’t secure to anything — it’s all retrofit. I left a note in the running doc I keep about house things that there’s unsecure Romex behind that wall / on the ceiling, knowing there is a 1% chance the next owner will read it. But I tried!
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Jan 13, 2022 01:17
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I have a bunch of those flush lights, but recently I've been looking for more recessed options where I can fit them. Ones like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerc...91462/310114080 If you need the flush ones to fit under a joist or something, these aren't a choice. If you've got the room though, I've found the slightly recessed ones are better with glare as you look across the room.
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Jan 13, 2022 01:32
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B-Nasty posted:You're going to be limited with box fill for those LED j-boxes. Those boxes are pretty tiny, typically. Of course, the spec sheet doesn't list it, but I'm guessing, based on memory, you have a box of about 3"x5"x1", so 15cu inches at best. There's also usually the power transformer in there, so in practice, it's probably more like <10cu. Enough for one 14ga/12ga NM in and one out, but certainly not hub-and-spoke from a single box. Perfect, this answers pretty much all my questions, thanks!
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Jan 13, 2022 03:47
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Is there such a thing as an extra deep light box that will mount a fixture and allow more connections?
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Jan 13, 2022 07:02
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If you're pulling THHN through conduit, and you have multiple circuits, is it a requirement that wires are different colors? Looking at what electricians have pulled when they've got all the colors of the rainbow it seems like the neutrals are always white, but there will be black and red and I've seen some blue. Is that just because they've got the extra colors, or is it a requirement that the hots in a conduit be a separate color? Menards is having a sale (that ends tomorrow) where I can get a 500 foot roll of solid 12 AWG THHN for $76 which seems like a steal, I've already got white, black, and green, wondering if I might ever have a need for more colors if I'm pulling through conduit.
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Jan 14, 2022 19:49
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Wire can be any color you want, but ground and neutrals must be marked at the ends in boxes if they aren't green/bare copper and white.
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Jan 14, 2022 20:07
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Well then 500 feet each of White, Black, and Green should pretty much last me until I'm dead!
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Jan 14, 2022 20:11
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FISHMANPET posted:If you're pulling THHN through conduit, and you have multiple circuits, is it a requirement that wires are different colors? Looking at what electricians have pulled when they've got all the colors of the rainbow it seems like the neutrals are always white, but there will be black and red and I've seen some blue. Is that just because they've got the extra colors, or is it a requirement that the hots in a conduit be a separate color? You don't want solid THHN anyways.
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Jan 14, 2022 20:30
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Motronic posted:Wire can be any color you want, but ground and neutrals must be marked at the ends in boxes if they aren't green/bare copper and white. This came up on recently on an electricans youtube I watch, and it was found in code that grounds MUST be either Green(with or without yellow stripe) or bare wire. You cannot take a white or black wire and put green electrical tape on it for the ground. Which I have seen before but is apparently not kosher.
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Jan 14, 2022 20:50
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SpartanIvy posted:This came up on recently on an electricans youtube I watch, and it was found in code that grounds MUST be either Green(with or without yellow stripe) or bare wire. You cannot take a white or black wire and put green electrical tape on it for the ground. Which I have seen before but is apparently not kosher. I dunno how anyone is running aluminum between outbuildings then. Because it's all black and that's exactly why you have a roll of white electrical tape. If it's explicitly disallowed in code it's routinely ignored/permitted in the field.
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Jan 14, 2022 20:58
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