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It can be
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Jan 15, 2022 01:11
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What if 
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Jan 15, 2022 01:53
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that can be true in narrative driven games etc., but in a strategy game, it's just going to be a newbie trap until players learn how to interpret the obfuscated info. doesnt really provide a skill check or anything either. just "you know this yet y/n"
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Jan 15, 2022 01:54
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Revolutionary new game idea: All text in game is represented in a conlang and you need to learn it to play.
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Jan 15, 2022 02:09
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I can't even stand stuff like auto-survey being locked behind tech in Stellaris.
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Jan 15, 2022 02:21
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Red Bones posted:Yeah, it's not a real administrative simulation unless there's a step that involves exporting data to excel, having excel break all the formatting, and then having to re-import it with all the new errors. Hey I heard you like to format data as dates!!!
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Jan 15, 2022 02:45
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Gaius Marius posted:It can be The imperfect vision of the state is a really fascinating concept with interesting real world repercussions, but it doesn't make for a good game. Unless you made a game about that somehow- where the fundamental rules were somehow randomized and the only way to know how the game worked was to observe it over a long period and reach your own conclusion, and whatever you did you'd never know if it was the result of true understanding or just getting lucky. Honestly, if that experience could be captured in a game it would be really neat. I'd play it. But Victoria 3 should not be that game. There's no reason to make us make our own spreadsheets when the game could just calculate that information for us, other than to please spreadsheet enthusiasts.
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Jan 15, 2022 03:47
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Baronjutter posted:I can't even stand stuff like auto-survey being locked behind tech in Stellaris. That's so annoying. Like I get there isn't exactly much to click on when you have one planet and no fleet but Jesus, how tedious
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Jan 15, 2022 03:50
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RattiRatto posted:Have more informative charts locked behind a tech! Start with everything using pie charts and only get the graph of growing GDP only after you have researched mathematics. TwoQuestions posted:Seconding this idea, it'd be really incredible for learning the game too so it doesn't vomit 10,000 information bits at you right at the start when even period leaders didn't have that info at the ready. hot cocoa on the couch posted:i actually kind of like the idea of progressively better data gathering and visualization, especially in this era You people need to be locked up to protect society.
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Jan 15, 2022 04:12
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Find the source code of Magna Mundi and build your dream game. Game stats that lie to you and are purposefully extremely vague/inaccurate was a key concept of the mod/game.
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Jan 15, 2022 04:14
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I do kinda like the idea that you gain more accurate information about your empire/subjects as time goes on. As long as the player still feels like they are having fun and doing "well" by some standard; as long as the game is clear about the sort of trade offs your doing and what decisions you're making player agency is retained even if the info is "fuzzy".
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Jan 15, 2022 04:37
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Demiurge4 posted:What if how have we strayed so far from Johan's light
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Jan 15, 2022 04:49
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Seriously though, Stellaris doesn't introduce you to Factions or advanced materials like crystals or fleet compositions until well after the beginning of the game, though it is bullshit that auto survey isn't enabled by default. HOI4 by contrast forces you to completely grok a huge country or get steamrolled. I'm pretty sure Endless Space 2 unlocks mechanics as you go as well. As someone else said, so long as the game gives you good enough info it could work, then give you super granular info with tech, or have a trusted advisor give you good enough info so you have a good idea what those numbers mean. Yes I'm still a bit salty about HOI4 expecting you to just know if 120 soft attack is good or not.
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Jan 15, 2022 05:09
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:how have we strayed so far from Johan's light It just looks so wrong.
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Jan 15, 2022 05:36
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I wonder if you can let Louis Riel win.
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Jan 15, 2022 06:05
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Eiba posted:Not in this game. If the information can be learned, but is not presented, then it's just an arbitrary penalty to the inexperienced. Really though, you could do it without randomization of the fundamental rules, shifting the randomization unto the values shown instead of the actual values. Basically, just apply a normal distribution where your administrative capability determines the standard deviation unto the actual values, and let that be the value shown to the player. Make it a fixed percentile for your campaign, so the direction if not the amplitude is constant, and you give the player something that they feel they can actually reach a conclusion on eventually. Maybe reroll it if the country goes through a revolution, to illustrate a fundamental shift/distrust in old methods/records and make the player feel like something big has actually happened. If you wanted to go deeper, I suppose corruption could work similarly, except on the actual values. Obviously the shift should always be negative, but the degree to which it is could be random, meaning it'd might be something you could live with in one campaign and something you'd prioritize stamping out in another. Thinking about it, I feel the above would work perfectly fine as an optional thing, alongside other options covering player information/determinism.
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Jan 15, 2022 07:25
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It sounds really cool, and would be great in a tutorial, but I don't want it. If I want to know how many crates of tomatoes are in a backwater province in 1837, just let me know.
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Jan 15, 2022 07:36
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I want a system which kicks me in my balls as hard as possible when I think about numbers
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Jan 15, 2022 07:49
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LonsomeSon posted:I want a system which kicks me in my balls as hard as possible when I think about numbers Look, I get paid to get kicked in the balls while thinking about numbers, and I don't need amateurs like you loving with my livelihood by doing it for free.
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Jan 15, 2022 07:50
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what obfuscating data would actually do to gameplay would be to make the player extremely risk averse. "yes it looks like i could win this war, but what if the numbers are wrong? better hold off" "well i might make profits if i build this new industry, but equally the prediction could be off and i could sink a bunch of money into nothing. maybe not"
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Jan 15, 2022 09:56
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TwoQuestions posted:Seriously though, Stellaris doesn't introduce you to Factions or advanced materials like crystals or fleet compositions until well after the beginning of the game, though it is bullshit that auto survey isn't enabled by default. HOI4 by contrast forces you to completely grok a huge country or get steamrolled. Last time I've tried HoI4 as a recommended country you could beat all your neighbours without even learning what are those strange flying and sailing contraption are, but I know what you mean. Anyway, obfuscating mechanics and progressively introducing new ones are very different things. I can't believe someone is arguing for obfuscating info in a serious way. If anyone think that it's "historical" they should understand that whatever model of abstracting info for a country they can think of in 1836 it will still give players more info than most governments have in 2022.
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Jan 15, 2022 10:01
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Seeing Like a State game: you have to persuade the rest of your polity, family by family, to make their lives more painful, unfair and inconvenient so as to make it more legible. If you fail then you get wiped out by a neighbouring polity. If you succeed too much you stagnate and 1000 years later your descendants get colonised by foreigners selling opium.
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Jan 15, 2022 10:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Wouldn't want to please the core demographic of the game... Those people are not the core of the fan base they are absolutely the fringe. Very vocal sure but still the fringe
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Jan 15, 2022 11:34
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Demiurge4 posted:What if Close, but not quite waffle. At least it isn't pie..
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Jan 15, 2022 12:02
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CharlestheHammer posted:Those people are not the core of the fan base they are absolutely the fringe. Very vocal sure but still the fringe
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Jan 15, 2022 12:32
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Eiba posted:Not in this game. If the information can be learned, but is not presented, then it's just an arbitrary penalty to the inexperienced. Exactly this.
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Jan 15, 2022 12:56
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Wiz posted:Exactly this. Thank you very much for the colour-blind mode.
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Jan 15, 2022 14:34
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I think if you want to make Victoria 3 into the Chart
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Jan 15, 2022 14:50
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Yeah if Vicky 3 has anywhere near the UI modding capability of HOI4 there are going to be some absolutely amazing mods. There's a lot of really impressive stuff out there. It's really a big contrast with the big EUIV mods (Anbennar and MEIOU & Taxes), that are held back so much by not being able to mess with the UI easily.
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Jan 15, 2022 15:04
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Eiba posted:The imperfect vision of the state is a really fascinating concept with interesting real world repercussions, but it doesn't make for a good game. Unless you made a game about that somehow- where the fundamental rules were somehow randomized and the only way to know how the game worked was to observe it over a long period and reach your own conclusion, and whatever you did you'd never know if it was the result of true understanding or just getting lucky. Honestly, if that experience could be captured in a game it would be really neat. I'd play it. This sounds like a fantastic concept for an indie strategy game along the lines of Predynastic Egypt with a simple core to it. Like, you’re a monarch shut in your palace and have to rely on your ministers to relay information to you, and over the course of the game you have to deduce / get more tools to figure out who you can actually rely on. Maybe it’s a countdown as half of them want to depose you and you have to get rid of them all before it’s too late. In East Asia at least just wrangling and politicking with your ministers was like 9/10ths of what a monarch actually did and there must be a few interesting ways to actually depict it. CK is part of the way there I suppose.
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Jan 15, 2022 15:32
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Koramei posted:This sounds like a fantastic concept for an indie strategy game along the lines of Predynastic Egypt with a simple core to it. Like, you’re a monarch shut in your palace and have to rely on your ministers to relay information to you, and over the course of the game you have to deduce / get more tools to figure out who you can actually rely on. Maybe it’s a countdown as half of them want to depose you and you have to get rid of them all before it’s too late. I've always pictured a hypothetical "imperfect vision" system in a strategy game as being more of a way to slow expansion and typical "empire blobbing". Basically, early on your ability to stay in contact with and project power to a place diminishes with the distance to the capital. Not only is communication slow over long distances, but there's only so much territory you can administer directly before it becomes overwhelming. More land means a bigger bureaucracy is needed, but that means more people and more room for corruption and nepotism. The efficiency of said bureaucracy also diminishes with distance. Eventually the combination of administrative costs and corruption combined with the lack of power projection means you just can't control more land, and it becomes worse and more expensive the further from the capital it is. Until new ways and more effective ways of administrating land are invented, your grasp on the remote areas are tenuous, and the reliability of any information you get diminishes rapidly with distance. I don't think all of that would fit into a game set in such a recent period of time as the Vicky series though, you would have to build the whole game around it, and whether you can actually make a FUN game out of it is an entirely different matter.
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Jan 15, 2022 19:52
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If such a game was ever made it would probably look like King of Dragon Pass or Six Ages - text adventure with map as a reference. In a game where you stare at the map the imperfect information is hard to represent. Also some sort of sci-fi setting would probably suit a game like this better. You'd have no geography to make information spread even less comprehensible.
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Jan 15, 2022 20:00
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I agree the map would have to be secondary yeah (I read a kind of convincing argument that CK would probably work better that way too) but I think one of the interesting things about the concept is how it could much better showcase to people how little historical monarchs actually knew about their land/how much they relied on people, which would be lost a little in sci fi.
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Jan 15, 2022 20:14
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Koramei posted:I agree the map would have to be secondary yeah (I read a kind of convincing argument that CK would probably work better that way too) but I think one of the interesting things about the concept is how it could much better showcase to people how little historical monarchs actually knew about their land/how much they relied on people, which would be lost a little in sci fi.
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Jan 15, 2022 21:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What Paradox needs to develop is a map rendering system that translates the "real" game world into inaccurate maps, which the player can slowly improve over time. So like, instead of going from terra incognita to perfect information, it's a gradient going from generally accurate maps, through distorted features with provinces, to hosed up scales and vague locations of states, to just a general marking of "here be a great empire", before dissolving into the completely unknown. That sound is me rabidly gaming the system to keep the game at "Half the map is Krakens, Sea Wyrms and 'Here be Dragons'" stage.
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Jan 15, 2022 21:06
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Koramei posted:I agree the map would have to be secondary yeah (I read a kind of convincing argument that CK would probably work better that way too) but I think one of the interesting things about the concept is how it could much better showcase to people how little historical monarchs actually knew about their land/how much they relied on people, which would be lost a little in sci fi. And the importance of picking the right people who do have that knowledge. Justinian probably never would've been remotely as successful as he was if it wasn't for the Avengers of Statesmen and Generals serving him.
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Jan 15, 2022 21:15
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justinian was only successful in the map painting sense, not in the "building a vibrant empire" sense, which was a pretty big failure. but this is definitely off topic.
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Jan 15, 2022 21:16
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I mean that’s more on factors outside his control
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Jan 15, 2022 21:23
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Lady Radia posted:justinian was only successful in the map painting sense, not in the "building a vibrant empire" sense, which was a pretty big failure. but this is definitely off topic. IIRC things like smuggling in silkworms from China and other reforms are widely cited as the reasons why the Empire lasted so much longer after his death. But on the other hand (temporarily) regaining North Africa/Italia/etc might've also further contributed to their decline, its hard to say.
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Jan 15, 2022 21:29
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North Africa was a pretty stable providence for a century was probably a big part of why they survived the wars his dipshit nephew started
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Jan 15, 2022 21:38
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